Shoes for Training/Racing

"steamboat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

After a twenty year absence from racing although I have kept up my
recreational running. I've now retired from work and am going to
train for some 60+ half marathons and shorter races. In the old days
one used to have a pair of racing flats and I'm wondering if that is
still the case or are people racing in their training shoes, and if
so what is a good training shoe for also racing. I'm not now or never
was world class...l around 36 mins when I was fourty for ten K
..thanks garry

I choose training shoes strictly based on my training needs. Deciding
later to use my training shoes for a race is another matter entirely, and
should IMO never influence the buying decision. The volume and injury risk
of training completely outweighs it.
So if your question is about a additional pair of trainers that work for
speedwork as well as races, continue. I like to look in a catalog that
weighs the shoes and pick a shoe in the 8-9oz range as a nice compromise
flat. And then I never buy on recommendation - I buy on fit alone.

Dave

As for Foot Locker aand The Ilk,
I've never found any sprots or show stores
Where sales cleks really did anything to help.

Perhaps in NYC,
Things don't follow the same rules or standards?

steamboat said:

After a twenty year absence from racing although I have kept up my
recreational running. I've now retired from work and am going to
train for some 60+ half marathons and shorter races. In the old days
one used to have a pair of racing flats

It's still done that way for the most part. Most competitive runners race in
some sort of flat. There are also some who use a lightweight trainer in the
same way that others would use a flat.

Quoted message said:

and I'm wondering if that is
still the case or are people racing in their training shoes, and if

Some do. I think the vast majority of competitive runners have a separate shoe
for racing/speedwork (again, sometimes a light trainer, sometimes a flat).

Since you seem open to the possibility of using separate shoes, I'd recommend
this. But you'll probably need some help choosing the right shoes. Stability,
cushion or motion control ? What sort of racing shoe ? A light trainer, one
of the heavier flats, or a light flat ? These are things you'll need to find
out on your own, or with some assistance from a specialty running store.

Here's a starting point on "running shoes 101":

http://runningtimes.com/shoes/04web/shoefaq.htm

you can find out more by googling -- see "pronation", etc.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Twittering One said:

As for Foot Locker aand The Ilk,
I've never found any sprots or show stores
Where sales cleks really did anything to help.

Perhaps in NYC,
Things don't follow the same rules or standards?

There are no less than three *running* stores in NYC (five locations)
Two of those three are owned by top local runners.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Quoted message said:

I like to look in a catalog that

weighs the shoes and pick a shoe in the 8-9oz range as a nice
compromise
flat. And then I never buy on recommendation - I buy on fit alone.
__

nonsense! heck, i buy most all my shoes online without ever even
trying them on. I just know what I am buying by alternative means. I
research the shoe....

initial fit does not speak to how the shoe will perform & "be" down the
line. you have no clue as to how fatiguing a shoe is in real world at
the point of determining initial fit. i got fooled by asics gel racer
V shoes....nice initial fit, roomy toe box....super ventilation....sole
is way to rigid....imo rough riding. recommendations mean
everything....as long as the person knows how to characterize the shoe,
critique the shoe.

i know lots of runners who jumped on the ultra light Nike mayfly 62
mile shoe. however most are not that crazy about the shoe for an
array of reasons. you don't "know" a shoe at the point of "fit".
you gotta "ride" the shoe, it's that simple. How's the shoe feel at
mile 9 in a Half?

I'm dying for someone to talk about that new fleet of Mizuno flats you
can see over at roadrunnersports. This morning I was able to pick up a
pair of Saucony Fastwitch Endurance for $39 over at Eastbay. Can't
wait to get'em and take'em out on a spin.

there are 2 20% off coupons at dealcoupn.com, one for rrs and other for
footlocker. this morning at footlocker (eastbay) i bought a combo that
would work well for you, cost me $100 after tax and shipping.
1 Saucony Men's Fastwitch Endurance
1 ASICS® Men's Gel-DS Trainer IX

Great LW trainer coupled with from what I hear is a super flat. The
asics shoe is priced at $59....can't be that. Doubt you can get the
Saucony shoe....I think they only had my size but buy the TigerPaw for
$39, flat. Wasn't that the only flat available back in the day?

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I like to look in a catalog that

weighs the shoes and pick a shoe in the 8-9oz range as a nice
compromise
flat. And then I never buy on recommendation - I buy on fit alone.
__
initial fit does not speak to how the shoe will perform & "be" down the
line. you have no clue as to how fatiguing a shoe is in real world at
the point of determining initial fit.

I'm talking about stepping out onto the sidewalk and run 100m to see how
the shoe holds to your feet. It's got to roll well, not rub, and stay in
place on your foot.

Quoted message said:

i got fooled by asics gel racer
V shoes....nice initial fit, roomy toe box....super ventilation....sole
is way to rigid....imo rough riding. recommendations mean
everything....as long as the person knows how to characterize the shoe,
critique the shoe.

Fitting racing flats are a whole different game from trainers - trainers
have the body to support your foot and hold their shape. Light trainers and
racing flats have to stay in place on your foot, too much rubbing in any
spot and you're screwed. The 100m jog is barely an indication of what
they'll do in a race. This is one reason why racing in trainers is such a
wise idea. It takes a couple of uptempo runs or speed workouts before I'll
ever take a pair of racers into a race. Even still, half of the racing
flats or spikes I've bought that I'm convinced fit well have bloodstains by
5k of the first race, and the ones I like the most for racing seemed to fit
the worst when I try them on. It's such a crapshoot.

Dave

Quoted message said:

I've now retired from work and am going to

train for some 60+ half marathons and shorter races.>

You are WAY TOO OLD, just go off somewhere and croak.

Quoted message said:

I'm dying for someone to talk about that new fleet of Mizuno flats you
can see over at roadrunnersports.

Mizuno flats seem to fit kind of wide, not sure whether that would be
a problem for you or not.

I tried on the spacer and it's a similar feel to the Asics magic. A
nice midweight flat. The aero is beefier, more heel, maybe not bad as a
marathon shoe. The revolver is a light, posted shoe with a lower heel
than most flats. Probably not unlike the 750, maybe a little lighter
and lower. I think you'd like it, provided it fits your foot.

But I think the best pick right now though is the Brooks T3 -- it's
available cheap (I think about $50-) at holabird right now.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

DG>> I buy on fit alone.

LA> nonsense! heck, i buy most all my shoes online without
GD> ever even trying them on. [...] recommendations mean
LA> everything

Quoted message said:

From all we've heard about your judgement, maybe it's just as well that

you rely on others' judgement rather than trust your own impressions!
;-)

I understand, in principal, your point about the first impression
revealing less than the fifteenth mile of a run will. But fit is also
a huge part of the equation - "if the shoe _doesn't_ fit, _don't_ wear
it". No? Or do you find pretty much anything and everything will fit,
or can be made to via shoe surgery, juggling the insoles, etc?

I dunno, after an initial around-the-block jog in a new pair of shoes,
I've yet to be really surprised by any of them revealing some unforseen
character trait 10, 15, 20 miles into a run. Except the first time I
tried to go 20 in my Nike Ekidens - but that was really just a lesson
about sizing up an extra half size for long runs (and 9 months later,
my big toenail is nearly 100% healed).

Surely the waffle racers wouldn't feel as good in mile 20 on pavement
as mile 2, but - duh!

So let me turn this into a question rather than a dismissive statement:
how exactly have various shoes surprised you at mile 10? Are such
surprises more likely if you require the shoe to do more work (motion
control, extraordinary cushioning, whatever) as opposed to being
happiest if the damn things just disappear?

"What? O, we know ~ She's Puck.
The left, left out."
~ Twittering

"But Twittering ~ Our game of Hex,
Who won, who lost? Who's turn next?

Twittering,
O,

Now I'm all so confused ~ My
Morphic field's

Distorted me!

Trompe
L'oeil, or just ~ A Foolish I,
A silly goose?

Is this Two ~ Handed Monty, or a Python
Snaking me, raping my lock, raking me

Over coals
For supper?"
~ Folly

"Who's turn? Capsicum,
Cavorting 'round the Capstan Bar ~ Rotating
Her vertical, retraceable, retractable

Rotatable drum
Around

Her cable, her Captain's Table, who
Winds wind around town,
When wounds kill, blow one Too ~ Far ~ Off ~ Kilter,

Who moves Heart ~ Heavy Ones Who
Wait Too long in the Hospital Emergency Room."
~ Twittering

"Capsicum,
Who hauls souls across The River Styx,
Or those who

Hang their neck from ropes,
Or travel too far for The Shipping News

And slip ...?"
~ Folly

"That's right.
Capsicum's turn next,
Even though, sometimes, she, taciturn ~

Resists our pleas,
Avoids us, refuses to answer our calls,
Our Pretty Please!

Just ask Mr.
John Nash, who invented Hex ~

Who lost his beautiful mind,
Too! Who, a movie, and a book, reminds

His Tale of Woe ~ His story? A brilliant mind,
Unwound by ultrasound's eco."
~ Twittering

"Binary, bisexual, bipolar, Mad Gello,
Magellan sailing ~

Or uncaged canary, who
Sings her haunting lonely chaconne?

.... O, that game of Hex's okay, just
A game, Twittering. The real question ~

Are you happy,
Are you safe?

Do you remember your address?
Had any dinner yet?

Your bed, all warm and snugly?
Yes, Twitty ~ That's what matters."
~ Capsicum

"No. No. Yes. No. Not really.
Yes, I know! Folly
Already said so! So know! She told you, too!

So what good are you?
Where are you? I told you so! A hollow hole
I'm still hollerin' from! So, Dr.

Pepper ~
Go To Hell! Without a hand basket!

Or, basket weaving, now an advanced course curriculum
Taught over at The Gold Fish School?

Along with Beaded Arts, Leather Crafts,
Cake Making

!&!
!Kukoo!

Clocks ~ In ~ The ~ Making, quaking, waking,
Chanting

Hickory Dickory Dock ~ All day
Long.

Me, now forsaken? Still shaken,
Still pukin' bacon, green eggs, and ham?"
~ Twittering

"Hell yes ~
And we paid you, too!"
~ Folly

*

"O, I know.
You already told me, twice.

But how ...
Come ~ ?"
~ Twittering

"if you see kay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

DG>> I buy on fit alone.

LA> nonsense! heck, i buy most all my shoes online without
GD> ever even trying them on. [...] recommendations mean
LA> everything

Quoted message said:

So let me turn this into a question rather than a dismissive statement:
how exactly have various shoes surprised you at mile 10? Are such
surprises more likely if you require the shoe to do more work (motion
control, extraordinary cushioning, whatever) as opposed to being
happiest if the damn things just disappear?

Racing shoes are much lighter, and they tend to shift around on your
feet. As well, the additional sweat means they will often rub and shift and
behave differently after a couple of miles.
Plus, the cushioning and 'ride' of these shoes is affected by fatigue.
I've had spikes that felt great for the first 800, but lap by lap one of the
spikes puts pressure on a part of my foot that ends up developing a blister.
Or a pair of flats that stretch and tend to bunch up my sock a certain way.
Hard to explain, but it happens, even with 1/8" needle spikes on an
all-weather track.

Dave

Quoted message said:

So let me turn this into a question rather than a dismissive statement:
how exactly have various shoes surprised you at mile 10?
__

easy question. Thermodynamics management. Ran the NYC marathon in a
pair of NB 700 flats and had no idea of the heat generation post mile
15. Feet & toes swell at a certion point and a you have no idea of how
a flat is going to manage that for you at the initial fitting. That's
exactly the answer to your question. Your foot at the initial fitting
is not your foot at mile 21.

It's like what's his name said, it's a [censored] shoot. You have no idea of
how a shoe is going to perform relative to your unique foot and it's
measure/level of swelling at father distances. And also as the person
said, generally w/flats, you go for a snug fit, etc....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

how exactly have various shoes surprised you at mile 10?

Quoted message said:

Feet & toes swell at a certion point and a you have no idea
of how a flat is going to manage that for you at the initial
fitting. That's exactly the answer to your question. Your
foot at the initial fitting is not your foot at mile 21.

OK, in my own experience I figured that was a one-time lesson, the
answer being "size up a half size if you're going to run long in it".
After one bad experience going too far in too-snug flats, I now know my
tootsies are gonna swell. So far giving them a little extra space has
solved that problem - I don't expect any "thermodynamic management"
other hocus pocus from a pair of shoes, but I do expect to have to
choose the proper size.

Maybe I'm just lucky that the 8.5 (Asics, Brooks, Nike) - the half size
up for me - leaves enough room for post-swell yet still feels plenty
swell pre-swell. My arches are relatively far forward for my shoe
size, which may help the larger shoes still fit well. Maybe if your
feet are shaped differently it's harder to simply half size up and
still get a good fit.

Or maybe your feet swell more than they oughtta because you're salt
depleted - try a Hawaiian pizza next time you go long. (ugh, can you
even get such a thing here?)

"... the half size
Up for me ~ Leaves enough room
For post-swell

Yet still feels plenty swell
Pre-swell."
~ If you see Kay

"Kewl ~ ! Paddle, paddle, paddle like hell, but
Don't ever let'em
See you sweat,
So hell, just stay kewl, hang loose, look swell."
~ Folly

"My
Arches ..."
~ If you see Kay

"Got
Arche booties, too,
Like me? A red pair, I used to wear ~ Now
I sport a green Peter Pan pair."
~ Twittering

"... are relatively far forward
For my shoe size, which may help
The larger shoes
Still fit well.

Maybe if your
Feet are shaped differently, it's harder
To simply half ~ size up and still
Get a good fit."
~ If you see Kay

"I fly Nimbae.
Just as Ms.
JK.
~ Twittering

"I paddle
Bare ~ foot, webbed swell."
~ Folly

"Or maybe
Your feet swell more than they oughtta
Because
You're salt depleted ..."
~ If you see Kay

"Heck, yeah ~ !
Need a speck of Anti ~ Salt,
Osmotic paradox, ion channel down stream
Retaining wall."
~ Twittering

"... try Hawaiian pizza
Next time you go
Long.
(ugh, can you
Even get such a thing here?)"
~ If you see Kay

"French style,
Dutch brick ~ oven baked, pineapple
Garnished, the left hand swerves
Easily away,

Scooping a spattered spill of Marinara
Pungent basil ~ laced red sauce,
A black olive, a green pepper, tomatoes, too.
Salad on the side."
~ Twittering

"Twittering,
Forget not Parmasan and Mozarella."
~ Folly

"O, of course,
Heck, yeah. A pilsner, too. And you,
Folly, your pleasure ~ ?"
~ Twittering

David Geesaman said:

Racing shoes are much lighter, and they tend to shift around on your
feet. As well, the additional sweat means they will often rub and shift and
behave differently after a couple of miles.
Plus, the cushioning and 'ride' of these shoes is affected by fatigue.
I've had spikes that felt great for the first 800, but lap by lap one of the
spikes puts pressure on a part of my foot that ends up developing a blister.
Or a pair of flats that stretch and tend to bunch up my sock a certain way.
Hard to explain, but it happens, even with 1/8" needle spikes on an
all-weather track.

It was mentioned in Geb's book that he got a really nasty blister training
in his spikes for the 10k in Atlanta. Bad enough that doc said that he shouldn't
race.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Quoted message said:

Got
Arche booties, too,
Like me?

Eau, I'd like to see!

Quoted message said:

~ Twittering LHOOQ

I bet you do!

Quoted message said:

I paddle
Bare ~ foot, webbed swell.
~ Folly

Lucky ducky.

Any relation to Ms Thrope? Rumor has it she's a webbed TV.

if you see kay said:

Quoted message said:

Most people choose shoes that are too large.

You meant to say "too small", no? My experience agrees with the rest
of what you said.

Thanks for spotting that. Yes, that's what I meant.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/