Shimanola Question

Solomander said:

I am going to get a new bike from Rivendell (an A. Homer Hilsen, to be
exact). Although Rivs tend to come with bar end shifters, I really
like Campy Ergo Shifters. I intend to use a Jtek shiftmate for the
rear derailleur, which is supposed to work well adapting the Shimano
componentry to the Ergo shifter. I am wondering if I should get a
Campy front derailleur instead of whatever Shimano will come with the
bike. I expect that the bike will be equipped with a Sugino triple
46/36/26. I browsed one bike website where a Romulus owner with a
similar setup switched to a Centaur front derailleur and thought that
it worked better. His front chainrings were roadish, being Ultegra
52/42/30. He also wound up eventually switching to a Centaur rear der.
as well.

What do you think?

Best

Joel

I would keep the shimano fd as Campag ERGO works with just about
anythiung BUT why not ask for a Campag RD, a long cage, and not worry
about the addon gizmo? Just get the frame if possible, and then spec it
like you wish. You are already not using the barends...

"Solomander" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am going to get a new bike from Rivendell (an A. Homer Hilsen, to be
exact). Although Rivs tend to come with bar end shifters, I really
like Campy Ergo Shifters. I intend to use a Jtek shiftmate for the
rear derailleur, which is supposed to work well adapting the Shimano
componentry to the Ergo shifter. I am wondering if I should get a
Campy front derailleur instead of whatever Shimano will come with the
bike. I expect that the bike will be equipped with a Sugino triple
46/36/26. I browsed one bike website where a Romulus owner with a
similar setup switched to a Centaur front derailleur and thought that
it worked better. His front chainrings were roadish, being Ultegra
52/42/30. He also wound up eventually switching to a Centaur rear der.
as well.

What do you think?

Best

Joel

If it is a new bike where you have choices get a fully equipped Campy bike:
shifters, cassette/rear hub and rear derailleur.. Front derailleur and
crankset don't matter.

Lou

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Solomander said:

I am going to get a new bike from Rivendell (an A. Homer Hilsen, to be
exact). Although Rivs tend to come with bar end shifters, I really
like Campy Ergo Shifters. I intend to use a Jtek shiftmate for the
rear derailleur, which is supposed to work well adapting the Shimano
componentry to the Ergo shifter. I am wondering if I should get a
Campy front derailleur instead of whatever Shimano will come with the
bike. I expect that the bike will be equipped with a Sugino triple
46/36/26. I browsed one bike website where a Romulus owner with a
similar setup switched to a Centaur front derailleur and thought that
it worked better. His front chainrings were roadish, being Ultegra
52/42/30. He also wound up eventually switching to a Centaur rear der.
as well.

What do you think?

Best

Joel

I would keep the shimano fd as Campag ERGO works with just about
anythiung BUT why not ask for a Campag RD, a long cage, and not worry
about the addon gizmo? Just get the frame if possible, and then spec it
like you wish. You are already not using the barends...

For some odd reason, Rivendell seems to have a bias against Campagnolo
parts and prefers Japanese. This bias is probably because Campy is
focused on "racing" bikes and Riv focus is more on touring, i.e., you
can't get any cogs larger than 29t for Campy; Shimano offers cogs as
large as 34t.

However, I agree why not buy a Campy long cage rear der. And, yes,
Campy long cage rear ders are available in a very nice silver color
too.

Solomander said:

I am going to get a new bike from Rivendell (an A. Homer Hilsen, to be
exact). Although Rivs tend to come with bar end shifters, I really
like Campy Ergo Shifters. I intend to use a Jtek shiftmate for the
rear derailleur, which is supposed to work well adapting the Shimano
componentry to the Ergo shifter. I am wondering if I should get a
Campy front derailleur instead of whatever Shimano will come with the
bike. I expect that the bike will be equipped with a Sugino triple
46/36/26. I browsed one bike website where a Romulus owner with a
similar setup switched to a Centaur front derailleur and thought that
it worked better. His front chainrings were roadish, being Ultegra
52/42/30. He also wound up eventually switching to a Centaur rear der.
as well.

What do you think?

Best

I own a bike with Campy Ergo 10 speed shifter, campy long cage rd and
Shimano 9 speed rear cassette, no shiftmate. It works well but it took
some trial and error to get one limit screw on the rd adjusted just
right. Also own a bike with Ergo 10 speed shifter, campy long cage rd,
Shiftmate and 10 speed shimano cassette. Works very well. With
shimano rear 10 cassette and Velocity Aerohead OC rear rim there is
noticably less dish on the rear wheel than the campy wheels or even a 9
speed shimano with open pro rims.

Looking at the specs it looked to me that campy's shifter + rd
combination was very close to Shimano's 9 spacing and not so close to
10s. Other say it works with either but I have not tried it. By the
way, both have Sugino 26/36/46 cranks and I am very happy with the
front shifting with a campy triple fd.

Most cost effective would be to go campy fd + rd with Shimano 9 speed
cassette and no shiftmate so you can use cheaper 9 speed parts (it is
only one less gear after all). Later if desired replace chain &
cassette to 10 speed and see how it works. If needed buy shiftmate.

bfd said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Solomander said:

I am going to get a new bike from Rivendell (an A. Homer Hilsen, to
be exact). Although Rivs tend to come with bar end shifters, I
really like Campy Ergo Shifters. I intend to use a Jtek shiftmate
for the rear derailleur, which is supposed to work well adapting
the Shimano componentry to the Ergo shifter. I am wondering if I
should get a Campy front derailleur instead of whatever Shimano
will come with the bike. I expect that the bike will be equipped
with a Sugino triple 46/36/26.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would keep the shimano fd as Campag ERGO works with just about
anythiung BUT why not ask for a Campag RD, a long cage, and not
worry about the addon gizmo? Just get the frame if possible, and
then spec it like you wish. You are already not using the barends...

Quoted message said:

For some odd reason, Rivendell seems to have a bias against Campagnolo
parts and prefers Japanese. This bias is probably because Campy is
focused on "racing" bikes and Riv focus is more on touring, i.e., you
can't get any cogs larger than 29t for Campy; Shimano offers cogs as
large as 34t.

Though, for a light weight fast tourer, the standard Campag triple
(30-40-50) and the 13-29 rear sprocket produces an excellent combination
(*). Close ratios so no big jumps in gears and low enough for the climbs.
Finding a Shimano cassette which doesn't have big jumps, or stupidly small
11 tooth top, is more difficult (I've been trying to workout the upgrade to
my other bike, and keep ending up with Sheldon Brown solutions of combining
multiple Shimano cassettes to get the ideal ratios).

I cannot see why a Campag long-cage rear, a Campag 13-29 cassette (and
therefore Campag rear hub), and a choice of lower TA rings (say 26-38-50)
wouldn't suit a tourer for heavier loads or steeper hills. Most experienced
users of bikes are sensible enough to avoid the extreme chainline
combinations, which means a rear-mech capacity can be exceeded by quite a
margin.

With the Original Poster's proposed 26-36-46 crankset, the chainring range
is the same as standard Campag units, just 4 teeth lower in total. What is
the proposed rear cassette ?

(* as fitted to my fairly new Chas Roberts bike. Roberts being a bespoke UK
bike builder).

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

I want Rivendell to build up the bike because I don't think that my LBS
can deal with it or would be interested in it. Although I understand
bikes, I don't have enough experience working on them or patience to do
this myself.

I wanted to go with Shimano to get strong rims that can accomodate
wider tires and the low gear of 26 x 32. I don't think that I can
achieve these objectives with Campy.

Are you saying that a Campy long cage rear der will work with a Shimano
cassette without any further modification? The shiftmate is a no
brainer at $35 and if it works reliably (Sheldon Brown has said that it
does) with a Shimano rear der it might easier than switching to a Campy
long cage.

The consensus seems to be that the front der is no problem.

I want to keep it as simple as possible (a ridiculous statement,
considering my objective). If it's too kludgy or sensitive to set up a
bike like this, I would just bite the bullet and go with bar ends. Who
knows, I may like it.

Thanks!

Joel

Nigel Cliffe said:

bfd said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Solomander wrote:
> I am going to get a new bike from Rivendell (an A. Homer Hilsen, to
> be exact). Although Rivs tend to come with bar end shifters, I
> really like Campy Ergo Shifters. I intend to use a Jtek shiftmate
> for the rear derailleur, which is supposed to work well adapting
> the Shimano componentry to the Ergo shifter. I am wondering if I
> should get a Campy front derailleur instead of whatever Shimano
> will come with the bike. I expect that the bike will be equipped
> with a Sugino triple 46/36/26.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would keep the shimano fd as Campag ERGO works with just about
anythiung BUT why not ask for a Campag RD, a long cage, and not
worry about the addon gizmo? Just get the frame if possible, and
then spec it like you wish. You are already not using the barends...

Quoted message said:

For some odd reason, Rivendell seems to have a bias against Campagnolo
parts and prefers Japanese. This bias is probably because Campy is
focused on "racing" bikes and Riv focus is more on touring, i.e., you
can't get any cogs larger than 29t for Campy; Shimano offers cogs as
large as 34t.

Though, for a light weight fast tourer, the standard Campag triple
(30-40-50) and the 13-29 rear sprocket produces an excellent combination
(*). Close ratios so no big jumps in gears and low enough for the climbs.
Finding a Shimano cassette which doesn't have big jumps, or stupidly small
11 tooth top, is more difficult (I've been trying to workout the upgrade to
my other bike, and keep ending up with Sheldon Brown solutions of combining
multiple Shimano cassettes to get the ideal ratios).

I cannot see why a Campag long-cage rear, a Campag 13-29 cassette (and
therefore Campag rear hub), and a choice of lower TA rings (say 26-38-50)
wouldn't suit a tourer for heavier loads or steeper hills. Most experienced
users of bikes are sensible enough to avoid the extreme chainline
combinations, which means a rear-mech capacity can be exceeded by quite a
margin.

With the Original Poster's proposed 26-36-46 crankset, the chainring range
is the same as standard Campag units, just 4 teeth lower in total. What is
the proposed rear cassette ?

Agree, your Campy drivetrain with lower chainrings is a good way to go.
The problem here is Rivendell. As stated, they are biased towards
Japanese products. Maybe its because Grant use to work for Bridgestone,
a Japanese company, and is more comfortable dealing with them, or
perhaps its easier for them to get.

Nevertheless, the OP appears to want to use Japanese products with only
Campy Ergo levers. I still say use a Campy long cage rear der, but if
he prefers the shifty thing, then that's another, albeit more
expensive, way to go.

Personally, I don't care for bar-ends, so I would try to get Campy ergo
levers to work.

Solomander said:

I want Rivendell to build up the bike because I don't think that my LBS
can deal with it or would be interested in it. Although I understand
bikes, I don't have enough experience working on them or patience to do
this myself.

Fair enough.

Quoted message said:

I wanted to go with Shimano to get strong rims that can accomodate
wider tires and the low gear of 26 x 32. I don't think that I can
achieve these objectives with Campy.

Agree in part. If you want "stronger rims," then your drivetrain, i.e.,
rear der, has nothing to do with that. Stronger rims are available and
can work with either Campy or Shimano hubs.

If you want a low gear of 32t, then a shimano hub/cassette is what you
need.

Quoted message said:

Are you saying that a Campy long cage rear der will work with a Shimano
cassette without any further modification?

Yes. A Campy long cage rear der will work with shimano hub/cassette.

Quoted message said:

The shiftmate is a no brainer at $35 and if it works reliably (Sheldon Brown has said >that it does) with a Shimano rear der it might easier than switching to a Campy
long cage.

Huh? What are you "switching?" I thought this was a new frameset that
you were building up?

Further, you state a shiftmate cost $35. The cheapest Shimano rear der
that Riv sells is about $50, that $85 TOTAL.

In contrast, you could get a Campy Veloce long cage for about the same
price ($82):

http://aebike.com/page.cfm?PageID=30&action=details&sku=RD9419

Or if you want cheaper, check out the Mirage long cage ($74):

http://aebike.com/page.cfm?PageID=30&action=details&sku=RD9421

Quoted message said:

The consensus seems to be that the front der is no problem.

I want to keep it as simple as possible (a ridiculous statement,
considering my objective). If it's too kludgy or sensitive to set up a
bike like this, I would just bite the bullet and go with bar ends. Who
knows, I may like it.

Personally, I don't care for bar-ends, so I would try to get the Campy
ergo levers to work. Its good that there are alternatives. I use Campy
9ergo levers and Campy 9 rear der with Shimano 9 hub/cassette and find
it to be no problem. Good Luck!

Solomander said:

I am going to get a new bike from Rivendell (an A. Homer Hilsen, to be
exact). Although Rivs tend to come with bar end shifters, I really
like Campy Ergo Shifters. I intend to use a Jtek shiftmate for the
rear derailleur, which is supposed to work well adapting the Shimano
componentry to the Ergo shifter. I am wondering if I should get a
Campy front derailleur instead of whatever Shimano will come with the
bike. I expect that the bike will be equipped with a Sugino triple
46/36/26. I browsed one bike website where a Romulus owner with a
similar setup switched to a Centaur front derailleur and thought that
it worked better. His front chainrings were roadish, being Ultegra
52/42/30. He also wound up eventually switching to a Centaur rear der.
as well.

What do you think?

Best

Joel

I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but you can use 10 speed
ergo shifting a shimano derailer on a 9 speed shimano cassette without
any extra parts added on. This is done by using an alternate cable
anchor position to change the throw of the derailer. You can search
this group for a link to a page that details this.

Nigel Cliffe said:

Though, for a light weight fast tourer, the standard Campag triple
(30-40-50) and the 13-29 rear sprocket produces an excellent combination
(*). Close ratios so no big jumps in gears and low enough for the climbs.

I went with a Campy 30-40-50 last year, then swapped the 30 for a 26. I
use it with a 12-23 9-speed cassette and a medium-cage Campy rear
derailleur. Low enough for all but the steepest climbs, though the top
end is a bit low if you like to race downhill. The med-cage works
(just) with a 13-26 also.

Mark J.

I was thinking of an 11 -32 cassette, which would approximate the top
gear of my road bike but give me low climbing gears. Why is an 11
tooth ring stupid (I ask this without a trace of irony, I really don't
know)?

I am currently riding a Campy double with a 13 -29 cassette and I know
that I am going need something lower if I ride with any significant
amount of weight on my bike.

As I mentioned before, I am a Campy person, but have been given to
understand that for this application (country/light touring road bike)
that Shimano wheels and cassettes will work better.

Joel

Solomander said:

I was thinking of an 11 -32 cassette, which would approximate the top
gear of my road bike but give me low climbing gears. Why is an 11
tooth ring stupid (I ask this without a trace of irony, I really don't
know)?

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Joel

Dear Joel,

The usual thinking on RBT is that a 53x12 is plenty of gearing for
less than Tour de France riders.

Some sturdy, independent posters of RBT divide their time between
insulting the herd that follows marketing trends and agreeing with
each other down to a single gear tooth.

Anyway, a 53x12 goes 31.5 mph at 90 rpm with a 2124mm 700c tire, which
is fast enough for most people.

Some competitive riders like the higher gearing of a 53x11 for long,
straight, gentle downhills.

In theory and in practice, using a higher cadence for the same speed
seems to work well for longer rides--rapid, lighter pedal strokes can
be sustained better than slower, heavier pedal strokes.

So at the same speed for hours, a 53x12 at a higher rpm may well be
better than a 53x11 at a lower rpm. Technically, the 53x12 takes more
effort because you have to raise and lower your legs more times and
faster, but not getting as tired is thought to outweigh this
advantage.

The 11-tooth wears itself and chains out somewhat faster than a
12-tooth, partly because it has 12.5% fewer teeth, partly because it
bends the chain at a sharper angle, and partly because it puts more
tension on the chain at the same speed and power.

The smaller gear is less efficient at transmitting power, but the
increased tension improves efficiency.

I've been using a 53x11 for most of my daily ride for years. I
replaced a 52x12 when I switched to a bike that allowed it and was
delighted because I could pedal noticeably further and faster down a
long highway downhill before spinning out and tucking in. Not knowing
any better, I plod along happily on the flats at 55-65 rpm and 20-25
mph.

If you find your bicycle catching fire or too many posters raise their
eyebrows at your gearing, you can always change to a different
cassette.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Solomander said:

I was thinking of an 11 -32 cassette, which would approximate the top
gear of my road bike but give me low climbing gears. Why is an 11
tooth ring stupid (I ask this without a trace of irony, I really don't
know)?

I am currently riding a Campy double with a 13 -29 cassette and I know
that I am going need something lower if I ride with any significant
amount of weight on my bike.

As I mentioned before, I am a Campy person, but have been given to
understand that for this application (country/light touring road bike)
that Shimano wheels and cassettes will work better.

Joel

Hey, marketing works!

Think of the ratios only in consideration of the front sprockets.
Either brand you mentioned, and also others, can put together your
desired low gear. Consider a smaller chain-ring, but you might need a
new crank.

Snarky comments about 11 tooth rings are largely because if used with
typical 53 tooth fronts, it yields a gear so high that few can cyclists
can make much use of it, except for unnecessarily pedaling down steep
hills. Sprockets also become less efficient as they decrease in tooth
count due to chordal action.

--
Ted Bennett

Quoted message said:

I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but you can use 10 speed
ergo shifting a shimano derailer on a 9 speed shimano cassette without
any extra parts added on. This is done by using an alternate cable
anchor position to change the throw of the derailer.

http://www.hubbub.com/articles_ergopower.html

"Nate Knutson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Solomander said:

I am going to get a new bike from Rivendell (an A. Homer Hilsen, to be
exact). Although Rivs tend to come with bar end shifters, I really
like Campy Ergo Shifters. I intend to use a Jtek shiftmate for the
rear derailleur, which is supposed to work well adapting the Shimano
componentry to the Ergo shifter. I am wondering if I should get a
Campy front derailleur instead of whatever Shimano will come with the
bike. I expect that the bike will be equipped with a Sugino triple
46/36/26. I browsed one bike website where a Romulus owner with a
similar setup switched to a Centaur front derailleur and thought that
it worked better. His front chainrings were roadish, being Ultegra
52/42/30. He also wound up eventually switching to a Centaur rear der.
as well.

What do you think?

Best

Joel

I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but you can use 10 speed
ergo shifting a shimano derailer on a 9 speed shimano cassette without
any extra parts added on. This is done by using an alternate cable
anchor position to change the throw of the derailer. You can search
this group for a link to a page that details this.

Solomander said:

I was thinking of an 11 -32 cassette, which would approximate the top
gear of my road bike but give me low climbing gears. Why is an 11
tooth ring stupid (I ask this without a trace of irony, I really don't
know)?

I am currently riding a Campy double with a 13 -29 cassette and I know
that I am going need something lower if I ride with any significant
amount of weight on my bike.

As I mentioned before, I am a Campy person, but have been given to
understand that for this application (country/light touring road bike)
that Shimano wheels and cassettes will work better.

Joel

Well, shimano MTB cogsets will give you a bigger cog(lower gear) but it
won't function any better. I think shimano hubs, with the supported at
the end, rear axles are a good idea for loaded touring as well. ERGO,
with the Campag long cage RD, and a shimano 9s cogset and chain, works
really well...

Solomander said:

I was thinking of an 11 -32 cassette, which would approximate the top
gear of my road bike but give me low climbing gears. Why is an 11
tooth ring stupid (I ask this without a trace of irony, I really don't
know)?

Stupid is probably a bit strong (sorry).
11tooth rear is prone to accelerate wear. The criticism is aimed at those
with 52T front rings and 11T rear, who need to be Superman to make use of
the gearing.

As elsewhere you've proposed a 26-36-46 chainset, then 11T at the rear gives
you a similar top-gear to 50T top and 12T rear. Personally I think much
over 100 gear inches is too high for anyone other than racing, which equates
to 50T front 13T rear, or 46T front 12T rear.

Before committing yourself on cassettes/cranks, look at the intermediate
gear spacings. On your existing bikes you'll have some favoured "cruising
along" gears. To work really well, a bike needs gears around those speeds
without massive jumps or awkward shifts (eg. swapping front rings and rear
ratio simultaneously), and with a decent chain line (eg. not "smallest rear
to smallest front"😉.
Also, check the way the bottom gear kicks in, some Shimano cassettes have a
huge jump to the bottom gear (some of the Megarange badged ones). Some
riders like it that way, others loathe it.

Quoted message said:

I am currently riding a Campy double with a 13 -29 cassette and I know
that I am going need something lower if I ride with any significant
amount of weight on my bike.

An opinion I would share. But what would it be like with a triple ?

Quoted message said:

As I mentioned before, I am a Campy person, but have been given to
understand that for this application (country/light touring road bike)
that Shimano wheels and cassettes will work better.

You can have any hub laced to any rim. So, its possible to have the
chunkiest ultra-distance heavy-weight off road touring rims laced onto a
Campag hub if you so wish.
Or even something weird like my partner's bike (Shimano hubs with Campag
badged rims!).
The issue is selecting an appropriate rim - the right width for the proposed
tyres, and the appropriate weight for the rider, roads and loads.
I've just been to the local bike shop to order a new wheel with a rim to
take tyres of 28 to 32mm. A slightly odd combination these days as most rims
advertised in the UK are either narrow (below 28mm tyre) or wider (32mm or
larger). But the local shop had some suitable ones (22mm wide over outside
of braking surfaces) in stock.

I understand that its possible to mix Shimano and Campag 9-speed systems
without fancy cable adaptors (at least in one direction), though the
theoretical cable pulls and rear cassette spacings suggest otherwise.

You haven't mentioned brakes (or if you did I missed it).
For what its worth, Shimano dual pivot brakes work extremely well with
Campag Ergo levers (my bike uses the combination). The Shimano brakes have a
deeper drop than Campag, giving enough room for mudguards and 28mm tyres.
There is an additional benefit of two places to increase the pad-gap to
remove a wheel (the lever on the Shimano brake caliper and the pin on the
Ergo lever), which is useful when fitting wheels with wider touring tyres.
If wanting fatter tyres than 28mm, then I think one looks at cantilever
brakes.

I've no particular preference for Campag over Shimano. I think the actual
differences are not that great once one has worked out appropriate gear
ratios. The main difference is personal preference over the Ergo/STI lever
shape and operation.

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/