"Shimano tandem"

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've seen something advertised locally described as a "Shimano
tandem". The vendor is selling on behalf of his parents and obviously
does not know much about it. Never having heard of Shimano making
tandems, my first assumption was he'd seen Shimano on several
components and taken that to be the maker of the whole thing. However,
the picture does seem to show Shimano in large letters on the frame,
with no other obvious name. The design looks reasonably modern,
vaguely like a hybrid - straight bars, straight forks, knobbly tires,
but mudguards and a rack.

....

Quoted message said:

So anyone heard of such a thing and is it OK? We're not too fussy for
the use we'll make of it, but we don't want to buy the tandem
equivalent of a BSO.

It'll be a BSO. Some manufacturers of BSOs have put "Shimano" in big letters
on their frame, probably ostensibly to highlight the presence of various
shimano bits, but mostly so they get people seeing the name, recognising it
and saying "that'll be good".

Still, even a BSO-tandem could be worth buying for the right price. So:

Are the components standard? Conventional cranks and pedals, conventional
size hubs (or wider is good for tandems). Cranks have replacable chainrings
for the timing chain? What condition are the bits in? (eg a complete new
drivetrain could cost...)

What mechanism is used to tension the timing chain? Is it an eccentric
bottom bracket (good), or a idler pulley (bad, run away if it's any more
than 50 quid (or other suitably small sum you won't miss)).

What price? For comparison, the tandem on sale here
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150146979986
is 340 quid. Apparently they're ok. Not great, but ridable.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150146980198
is a bit closer to the BSO - 225 quid. But at least one person is happy with
theirs:

http://www.tandem-club.org.uk/cgi-bin/db_config.pl?read=9545

So for pricing - if it's cheap and works, then there's nothing to lose
really! But if it's approaching the prices of those new bikes, then it may
start to look poor value.

cheers,
clive

Quoted message said:

My partner and I are thinking of buying a tandem

I'm thinking of selling one. If you are anywhere near Glasgow you
could have a test ride. A Dawes Discovery Twin. A few years old but
very few miles on it. The larger of the two sizes. The Discovery Twin
is a low end "decent" tandem as in it has proper tandem 40 spoke
wheels and so on.
Whether or not you are interested in this one the Discovery Twin is a
good bet if you can get a second hand one somewhere close to you.

Iain

Clive George said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I've seen something advertised locally described as a "Shimano
tandem".
So anyone heard of such a thing and is it OK? We're not too fussy for
the use we'll make of it, but we don't want to buy the tandem
equivalent of a BSO.

It'll be a BSO. Some manufacturers of BSOs have put "Shimano" in big letters
on their frame,

I'm not surprised, it seemed too unlikely that Shimano had actually
made it.

Quoted message said:

Still, even a BSO-tandem could be worth buying for the right price. So:

I've yet to go and see it - the vendor is local, but it turns out that
the tandem is at his parents house - only 30 miles away, but a bit far
to go if it really is rubbish, hence this posting first.

Quoted message said:

Are the components standard? Conventional cranks and pedals, conventional
size hubs (or wider is good for tandems). Cranks have replacable chainrings
for the timing chain? What condition are the bits in? (eg a complete new
drivetrain could cost...)

Well based on the picture, cranks/chainring fixings look standard,
obviously can't tell about the hubs. Front wheel is definitely 36
spoke, back wheel probably is. Only 18 gears, so maybe not that
recent. Brakes are centre pull cantilever front and rear, no sign of a
hub brake, can't tell if there are disc mounts. (I'm a bit worried
about the brakes - we have a lot of serious hills round here.)

Quoted message said:

What mechanism is used to tension the timing chain? Is it an eccentric
bottom bracket

Definitely no idler pulley, so I assume an eccentric BB.

Quoted message said:

What price?

He was originally hoping for £200, which I definitely wasn't going to
pay, and I think he knows he won't get that. £100 was what I had in
mind, and I'm starting to wonder if it's worth that.

Quoted message said:

For comparison, the tandem on sale herehttp://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI..dll?ViewItem&item=150146979986
is 340 quid. Apparently they're ok. Not great, but ridable.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150146980198
is a bit closer to the BSO - 225 quid.

Disk brakes at that price does sound rather BSO. But if we decide to
go and see it, it might be a useful bargaining point if he's still
convinced it's worth close to £200.

Are tandem frame sizes different? Both those say 17"/15", which
worries me as I'm over 6'. I buy bits off e-bay, but buying a whole
bike would worry me because of the sizing issue.

Quoted message said:

So for pricing - if it's cheap and works, then there's nothing to lose
really! But if it's approaching the prices of those new bikes, then it may
start to look poor value.

Thanks for your help, very useful. I think it would probably do for
what we want, but I doubt he'll come down to a sensible price. The
Shimano lettering is a feature to him, it's positively putting me off
because it's dishonest, it makes me wonder what else is being covered
up. I'd consider getting close to £200 if we were getting something
that would be OK for a while if we get really keen on tandeming, but
it sounds too BSO for that.

Rob

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Well based on the picture, cranks/chainring fixings look standard,
obviously can't tell about the hubs. Front wheel is definitely 36
spoke, back wheel probably is. Only 18 gears, so maybe not that
recent. Brakes are centre pull cantilever front and rear, no sign of a
hub brake, can't tell if there are disc mounts. (I'm a bit worried
about the brakes - we have a lot of serious hills round here.)

If flat bars, just stick a pair of Vs on it - they should be fine. The
cantis on it will probably be [censored].

(where is "here" - serious hills vary through the country. It depends a bit
on riding style if rim brakes are up to it - friends have got away with it,
I've had a couple of overheating incidents but have got away with quite a
lot).

Quoted message said:

He was originally hoping for £200, which I definitely wasn't going to
pay, and I think he knows he won't get that. £100 was what I had in
mind, and I'm starting to wonder if it's worth that.

Worth is a bit in the eye of the beholder. Could be that 100 quid is "play
money", so worth a punt for a noddy bike.

Quoted message said:

Are tandem frame sizes different? Both those say 17"/15", which
worries me as I'm over 6'. I buy bits off e-bay, but buying a whole
bike would worry me because of the sizing issue.

I'm 6'2", and ride a 19" framed tandem and a 20" framed one - both MTB. 17"
is getting a bit small, aka "enormous seat pin", rather than the merely
"big" one our bikes have.

cheers,
clive

iarocu said:

Quoted message said:

My partner and I are thinking of buying a tandem

I'm thinking of selling one. If you are anywhere near Glasgow you
could have a test ride.

330 miles away - I happen to know because Glasgow's roughly where we
are planning to stop for lunch on our way up to Skye later in the
month.

Quoted message said:

A Dawes Discovery Twin. A few years old but
very few miles on it. The larger of the two sizes. The Discovery Twin
is a low end "decent" tandem as in it has proper tandem 40 spoke
wheels and so on.

I'm sure it would suit us very well, but I doubt you'd sell it for our
sort of budget, even if we could get it in the car to take it home.
(Actually I've read on the Tandem Club website that some people do
manage to get them inside their cars which I find encouraging. One of
the reasons I'm still ambivalent about buying one is the hassle of
moving them around - roof bars to take a tandem aren't cheap and I
guess getting a tandem up there is hard work, whereas two singles fit
inside my car with no problem, so that would always be the easier
option.)

Quoted message said:

Whether or not you are interested in this one the Discovery Twin is a
good bet if you can get a second hand one somewhere close to you.

Thanks, I'll bear it in mind, although I suspect it's a rather better
tandem than we need for more than we really want to pay.

Rob

Clive George said:

(where is "here" - serious hills vary through the country.

Severn Valley/Cotswolds. Descents of 600' + are common, gradients
typically around 1:10 - 1:12, sometimes 1:6. On most (solo) descents
from the hills to the valley I do 30 mph+ without trying, on a 1:6
I've reached 42 mph, again without trying. AIUI, a tandem goes faster
down hills, 40 mph feels quite fast enough to me on a bike.

Quoted message said:

It depends a bit
on riding style if rim brakes are up to it - friends have got away with it,
I've had a couple of overheating incidents but have got away with quite a
lot).

Sorry for my ignorance, I know brakes are a concern on a tandem, but I
don't actually know what happens when they overheat. Brake fade?
Exploding tyres?

Quoted message said:

I'm 6'2", and ride a 19" framed tandem and a 20" framed one - both MTB. 17"
is getting a bit small, aka "enormous seat pin", rather than the merely
"big" one our bikes have.

thanks, that's useful.

Rob

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm sure it would suit us very well, but I doubt you'd sell it for our
sort of budget, even if we could get it in the car to take it home.
(Actually I've read on the Tandem Club website that some people do
manage to get them inside their cars which I find encouraging. One of
the reasons I'm still ambivalent about buying one is the hassle of
moving them around - roof bars to take a tandem aren't cheap and I
guess getting a tandem up there is hard work, whereas two singles fit
inside my car with no problem, so that would always be the easier
option.)

The thing the tandem does which two singles can't ever do is allow two
physically mismatched riders to ride together. If you're ever having to wait
for your partner, or struggle to keep up, the tandem solves this.

I've discovered I've been spoiled by riding one too much now. I don't ride
the solo on steep stuff much, so when I do I'm really quite nervous about
doing downhill (*) - the tandem feels just so secure and stable doing it.
And it's faster downhill too :-)

(* this is probably deeply subjective)

Re the carrying thing - I'm guessing you'll have read my contributions :-)
For long-distance trips, our bike goes in the car, since putting it on top
makes it drink more fuel. However it is a bit tedious taking it apart
sufficiently to do it. And if you don't have the strength to lift a tandem
to roof height, it may well be tricky putting it in the car too.

Roof bars to take a tandem are cheap - you don't need a special rack or
anything, just tie the tandem to the bars! (we remove 2 pedals and turn one
set of handlebars). A proper rack is probably easier, but I've never
bothered.

cheers,
clive

Quoting Clive George <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

I'm 6'2", and ride a 19" framed tandem and a 20" framed one - both MTB. 17"
is getting a bit small, aka "enormous seat pin", rather than the merely
"big" one our bikes have.

And this is worse on a tandem. If your hands and bottom are a long way out
on a solo, you can cope. On a tandem, the captain's bottom imposes certain
constraints on the stoker's hands...
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!
Today is Tuesday, July.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Clive George said:

(where is "here" - serious hills vary through the country.

Severn Valley/Cotswolds. Descents of 600' + are common, gradients
typically around 1:10 - 1:12, sometimes 1:6. On most (solo) descents
from the hills to the valley I do 30 mph+ without trying, on a 1:6
I've reached 42 mph, again without trying. AIUI, a tandem goes faster
down hills, 40 mph feels quite fast enough to me on a bike.

We've got to 62mph on the tandem (we're in the Dales). For us, that takes
1:7 or steeper and a suitable road. You can get a decent speed on 1:10 or
12, but IME it's a lot less insane than the steeper stuff, and I wouldn't
feel the need for a drag brake except for if the road was bumpy.
Yes, the tandem is faster - but it does feel a lot more solid, and if you
want to stop, provided you've got decent brakes, you can - just haul on the
brakes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It depends a bit
on riding style if rim brakes are up to it - friends have got away with
it,
I've had a couple of overheating incidents but have got away with quite a
lot).

Sorry for my ignorance, I know brakes are a concern on a tandem, but I
don't actually know what happens when they overheat. Brake fade?
Exploding tyres?

The latter. Not an actual explosion, but puncture (patch lifted off, valve
detached are the two I can think of). In both those cases it was the back
wheel, since I was dragging on that a bit much, keeping the front for an
actual stop if required. Flatting on the front could have been a lot more
scary, so there's another reason to do what I did. (back brakes can do
something on tandems).

One was coming off Wrynose - bumpy and famously steep. The other was coming
down the steep road into Settle - twisty and wet, so I was keeping the speed
down.

cheers,
clive

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoting Clive George <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

I'm 6'2", and ride a 19" framed tandem and a 20" framed one - both MTB.
17"
is getting a bit small, aka "enormous seat pin", rather than the merely
"big" one our bikes have.

And this is worse on a tandem. If your hands and bottom are a long way out
on a solo, you can cope. On a tandem, the captain's bottom imposes certain
constraints on the stoker's hands...

Which means it's not the 17" at the front he should be worrying about, but
the length of the stoker's compartment at the back.

cheers,
clive

Quoting <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Sorry for my ignorance, I know brakes are a concern on a tandem, but I
don't actually know what happens when they overheat. Brake fade?
Exploding tyres?

Rim brakes explode tyres. Disc brakes melt, catch on fire, etc. Some disc
systems are now rated for tandem duty, mind, but I wouldn't chance it; I
would always fit a tandem used for anything except racing with an Arai
drum brake.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!
Today is Tuesday, July.

Quoting Clive George <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

I've discovered I've been spoiled by riding one too much now. I don't ride
the solo on steep stuff much, so when I do I'm really quite nervous about
doing downhill (*) - the tandem feels just so secure and stable doing it.

I find this is somewhat compensated by the way, on any twisty descent, the
tandem accelerates to scary speed in about half a second.

That said, we did have fun zooming past solos on the London->Cambridge...

I also find the tandem's very stable on rough stuff - not proper MTB
stuff, just gravel and packed earth and the like - if I have the courage
to point it straight and trust it.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!
Today is Tuesday, July.

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I find this is somewhat compensated by the way, on any twisty descent, the
tandem accelerates to scary speed in about half a second.

That said, we did have fun zooming past solos on the London->Cambridge...

Sorry, I thought you said "twisty descent"? :-)

cheers,
clive

Quoting Clive George <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I find this is somewhat compensated by the way, on any twisty descent, the
tandem accelerates to scary speed in about half a second.
That said, we did have fun zooming past solos on the London->Cambridge...

Sorry, I thought you said "twisty descent"? :-)

Twisty descent bad, not a feature of the Lon->Cam.

Untwisty descent good, overtake solos with your awesome power of LARD.

Although my absolute favourite is a very shallow descent where solos have
to pedal and tandems don't. They find that very frustrating for some
reason.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!
Today is Tuesday, July.

Clive George said:

Still, even a BSO-tandem could be worth buying for the right price. So:

Usually on a tandem there is a chain on either side so you should try
and find out whether or not the 'flipped' chainwheel and crank is a
proper reversed version or just a normal one that has been put on the
other side. Otherwise your pedals will unscrew as you ride along!
It happened the tandem I used to ride with someone and it wasn't a
cheap BSO either. When it was discovered the manufacturer refused to
replace it unless the owner paid for the proper part, which was around
£50. Putting threadlock on the pedal didn't help so in the end
someone drilled through it with a pilot bit and put a split pin
through!

peter

"naked_draughtsman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Usually on a tandem there is a chain on either side so you should try
and find out whether or not the 'flipped' chainwheel and crank is a
proper reversed version or just a normal one that has been put on the
other side. Otherwise your pedals will unscrew as you ride along!
It happened the tandem I used to ride with someone and it wasn't a
cheap BSO either. When it was discovered the manufacturer refused to
replace it unless the owner paid for the proper part, which was around
£50. Putting threadlock on the pedal didn't help so in the end
someone drilled through it with a pilot bit and put a split pin
through!

Interesting. My old MTB tandem has 3 wrong-threaded cranks, and the pedals
have never unscrewed. I'm careful to do them up quite tight though.

cheers,
clive

Quoted message said:

(Actually I've read on the Tandem Club website that some people do
manage to get them inside their cars which I find encouraging.

Mine was delivered to me by the dealer with the front wheel removed,
inside a Range Rover. The distance from the front axle (with bars in
normal position) and rear axle is 66 inches. So with the wheels off it
should fit inside a large family car with the seats down. I built a
wooden carrier which bolts on to roof bars so I could carry it, wheels
on, upright on the roof. Size wise mine is the bigger size with a 19"
front seat tube. I'm 6ft3 and it fits me OK (after dealer swapped the
stem at time of purchase) but I think the 17" one you are looking at
would be too small if you are 6ft.
As far as brakes go mine has V brakes which are fine for power.
Obviously drums or disc would be better for very big hills but for
stopping power Vs are fine. I had enough confidence in the brakes to
hit 54mph downhill in Arran. The Discovery comes with a rear whel with
the screw threads for adding a tandem rear brake if you want to
upgrade.

Iain

Clive George said:

One was coming off Wrynose - bumpy and famously steep. The other was coming
down the steep road into Settle - twisty and wet, so I was keeping the speed
down.

I thought those hills would easily trump ours, but looking some of
them up, they're not as different as I expected. Yours have more steep
bits, but we have some longer ones. I guess a lot of yours are
moorland with decent visibility - round here it's mainly high hedges
or stone walls, sometimes close in on the minor roads. The only one I
know which is really good for high speeds is the 1:6 down from
Birdlip, which is a by-passed A road and after the first bend fairly
straight (it's an old Roman road). This is where I did 42 mph without
trying on an old hybrid and making my body big for air braking. With a
bit of pedalling to build up speed early and a decent aero position I
reckon I could do 50 on a single, so on a tandem I should think 60+
should be possible (think metric, then you could do the ton!). Good
run out at the bottom as well, only risk is the drives of a few
cottages. All hypothetical of course since they brought in the 40
limit.

Found another one on e-bay.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tandam_W0QQitemZ120146972464QQihZ002QQcategoryZ33503QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I guess that's an idler pulley I can see tensioning the chain. (Why
are they so bad? I thought some fixies used them.) I couldn't cope
with 6 gears anyway - I struggle with a 12 speed I sometimes ride.

Rob

Clive George said:

Which means it's not the 17" at the front he should be worrying about, but
the length of the stoker's compartment at the back.

We had this problem on a hire tandem once - the saddle would easily go
high enough for me, but the slope of the seat post took it a long way
back.

It always seems the stoker gets a raw deal to me in terms of getting a
nice view, without having their space invaded as well.

Rob