shimano Di2

Peter@vecchios said:

Couldn't put it off any longer, took this test, got Di2 certified(have to build a Di2 Cervelo). Just looking at it and riding it, it 'seems' complicated. Installing it is much more so. Not rocket surgery or anything but more than a few gotchas when installing and adjusting.

It 'seems' to be reliable, robust. Once all hooked up, pretty robust connections, etc. If nothing else, there is a tremendous amount of thought and engineering that went into it. No wonder it's so expensive.

So Peter, just in your personal opinion: Does it shift any better than a good manual shifting system?

64Paramount said:

So Peter, just in your personal opinion: Does it shift any better than a good manual shifting system?

No, not at all. It is less 'intuitive' than even Red stuff. The buttons are not very tactile and in the heat of battle, I think a shift in the wrong direction is possible.

Wires everywere also. Not very 'pretty'. And if are getting at the end of the battery, and forget to charge it before the next ride, you are SOL.

One cog per button push, spectacular front derailleur/chainring action tho. The very best ever, period. BUT it's gotta be mated to the 7900 crank(big $) and the 7900 chain(big $) for such amazing performance.

I look at it the same way I look at $8000 carbon bicycle frames(like Se-Rotta), it's keen but a less expensive frame and gruppo does the same thing, move the chain around. LIke a racing car or morotcycle or golf clubs or tennis rackets or unlimited air racers..it's about the 'pilot'. This isn't going to mean somebody wins when before, with an old fashioned shifting system, he lost.

I am rapidly becoming a curmudgeon about these things.

A bicycle is really one of the simplest mechanisms known to man. As a machine it is beautiful in its simplicity.

And yet, the bike and component makers keep searching for ways to make it more complicated.

Di2 is one of "gee whiz" things that I just cannot get my head around. It is not like shifting gears on a bike, ever, was all that complicated that it required this "solution".

Another product designed to separate the gullible from their dollars - strictly my opinion mind you.

I know there are people will be jumping all over it.

toomanybikes said:

I am rapidly becoming a curmudgeon about these things.

A bicycle is really one of the simplest mechanisms known to man. As a machine it is beautiful in its simplicity.

And yet, the bike and component makers keep searching for ways to make it more complicated.

Di2 is one of "gee whiz" things that I just cannot get my head around. It is not like shifting gears on a bike, ever, was all that complicated that it required this "solution".

Another product designed to separate the gullible from their dollars - strictly my opinion mind you.

I know there are people will be jumping all over it.

+1!!

toomanybikes said:

I am rapidly becoming a curmudgeon about these things.

A bicycle is really one of the simplest mechanisms known to man. As a machine it is beautiful in its simplicity.

And yet, the bike and component makers keep searching for ways to make it more complicated.

Di2 is one of "gee whiz" things that I just cannot get my head around. It is not like shifting gears on a bike, ever, was all that complicated that it required this "solution".

Another product designed to separate the gullible from their dollars - strictly my opinion mind you.

I know there are people will be jumping all over it.

Yep, I agree.

Even if it was an improvement over a manual shifting system, I wouldn't buy it because I don't ride well enough to get 100% performance out of the old style equipment on my bikes. And I like clean looking lines on bikes, sounds like the Di2 might look a bit messy.

Since Peter basically says it's just another rich boy toy, it'll probably be a fad for folks with enough money to spend on the latest gimmick for awhile and then it'll fade away. And there's nothing wrong with wanting new toys if you're into trying new things and have the money to spend on them.

I doubt you'll see Di2 and its electric descendants fade away. Shimano's got a lot of money invested in it.

As for cynicism about manufacturers and wanting to take the customers money.....well, they're in business to make a profit. That requires product differentiation and innovation. That's always been the case and always will be. The funny thing is that there's no complaining required: just don't buy the new, fly stuff. No one is being forced to spend money. I think it's great that people can buy new, shiny expensive stuff, just as I think it's cool that people can go to a local bike co-op and assemble their own bike for next to nothing out of old, used bike parts. And, whether anyone likes it or not, the people that buy the expensive, new stuff make a lot of stuff available for the folks that don't buy the new, expensive stuff.

alienator said:

I doubt you'll see Di2 and its electric descendants fade away. Shimano's got a lot of money invested in it.

As for cynicism about manufacturers and wanting to take the customers money.....well, they're in business to make a profit. That requires product differentiation and innovation. That's always been the case and always will be. The funny thing is that there's no complaining required: just don't buy the new, fly stuff. No one is being forced to spend money. I think it's great that people can buy new, shiny expensive stuff, just as I think it's cool that people can go to a local bike co-op and assemble their own bike for next to nothing out of old, used bike parts. And, whether anyone likes it or not, the people that buy the expensive, new stuff make a lot of stuff available for the folks that don't buy the new, expensive stuff.

Where in my post was the complaining?????

toomanybikes said:

Where in my post was the complaining?????

Where in my post did I say I was referring to you? I was speaking in general.

alienator said:

I doubt you'll see Di2 and its electric descendants fade away. Shimano's got a lot of money invested in it.

As for cynicism about manufacturers and wanting to take the customers money.....well, they're in business to make a profit. That requires product differentiation and innovation. That's always been the case and always will be. The funny thing is that there's no complaining required: just don't buy the new, fly stuff. No one is being forced to spend money. I think it's great that people can buy new, shiny expensive stuff, just as I think it's cool that people can go to a local bike co-op and assemble their own bike for next to nothing out of old, used bike parts. And, whether anyone likes it or not, the people that buy the expensive, new stuff make a lot of stuff available for the folks that don't buy the new, expensive stuff.

Reality, what a concept.

Hi Peter @Vecchios!~ I remember you from the usenet rec.bicycles.marketplace & other groups. Just joined here, following a Di2 twitter post.
Questions: I've been using a Mektronic bike for the last 2 summers - love it, especially the EASY install (i.e. wireless), BUT, find that the rear derailleur balks & double shifts at cooler temps (i.e. low 50's) -- have you heard of this same issue with Di2??
Also, I've some spare Mektronic rear derailleurs & may try swapping to check if this issue is with the the particular part on my bike.
Good to see your name again!@
-Bob

I'm particularly interested in the messy 'wires everywhere' look. I will always have clean bikes - spoiled by the days when the brake cables got routed under the tape or thru the bar - very clean & simple lines.
I would have thought Di2 would lend itself to clean install, but I guess it would depend on the frame, etc. I've seen a few bikes (WIlier, Scott, etc.) designed specifically for Di2, allowing clean internal routing. Cervelo would lend itself well here too, I suspect.
I have old Mavic electronic shifting stuff- both Zap & Mektronic. I love it, mainly for the geek factor.
My Zap is on a Lotus (Boardman rep) and is extremely clean. All internal routing makes it so.
My Mektronic is a more recent project, ~3 years ago I installed one of my saved Mektronic systems on a Time VXRS. The wireless aspect is awesome - totally clean and simple install. I used a downtube shifter for the front derailleur, as the Mavic solution was unfortunate.
Anyway, I would think with an internally routed setup the Di2 could be quite clean.
-Bob

bobdejonge said:

I'm particularly interested in the messy 'wires everywhere' look. I will always have clean bikes - spoiled by the days when the brake cables got routed under the tape or thru the bar - very clean & simple lines.
I would have thought Di2 would lend itself to clean install, but I guess it would depend on the frame, etc. I've seen a few bikes (WIlier, Scott, etc.) designed specifically for Di2, allowing clean internal routing. Cervelo would lend itself well here too, I suspect.
I have old Mavic electronic shifting stuff- both Zap & Mektronic. I love it, mainly for the geek factor.
My Zap is on a Lotus (Boardman rep) and is extremely clean. All internal routing makes it so.
My Mektronic is a more recent project, ~3 years ago I installed one of my saved Mektronic systems on a Time VXRS. The wireless aspect is awesome - totally clean and simple install. I used a downtube shifter for the front derailleur, as the Mavic solution was unfortunate.
Anyway, I would think with an internally routed setup the Di2 could be quite clean.
-Bob

Cleaner than external for sure but there is a still a bundle of wires by the battery for the FD, even if the junction for the 4 wires is inside the frame. shimano makes an internal junction 'box', that is connected then wrapped in shrink wrap. Any service or maintenance is going to be tedious.

'Sort' of answered your ? about temps(other post). In a nutshell, I don't know but the Mavic systems are 10-15 year old design. I would hope shimano's is more advanced PLUS Mektronic being wireless was a poor idea anyway.

Peter@vecchios said:

Cleaner than external for sure but there is a still a bundle of wires by the battery for the FD, even if the junction for the 4 wires is inside the frame. shimano makes an internal junction 'box', that is connected then wrapped in shrink wrap. Any service or maintenance is going to be tedious.

'Sort' of answered your ? about temps(other post). In a nutshell, I don't know but the Mavic systems are 10-15 year old design. I would hope shimano's is more advanced PLUS Mektronic being wireless was a poor idea anyway.

Thanks, Peter!
Well, the wireless thing is debatable, and I would be on the other podium for that one! Lots of plusses on the wireless side, with some minuses...
I know with Zap (wired) I had to cut the wires, route them trough the frame, then solder them after trimming unneeded wire off. I looked for tiny 4-wire interconnects that would fit through the available openings, but no luck. Sounds like Di2 doesn't really solve this issue.
Bottom line is, I'm building another bike this winter, and seriously considering Di2. I need to hold one the systems in my hand to see the details I'm wondering about. I may just have to buy one, on hope. I could always sell it off new/unused for minimal loss if it doesn't do what I need.

bobdejonge said:

Thanks, Peter!
Well, the wireless thing is debatable, and I would be on the other podium for that one! Lots of plusses on the wireless side, with some minuses...
I know with Zap (wired) I had to cut the wires, route them trough the frame, then solder them after trimming unneeded wire off. I looked for tiny 4-wire interconnects that would fit through the available openings, but no luck. Sounds like Di2 doesn't really solve this issue.
Bottom line is, I'm building another bike this winter, and seriously considering Di2. I need to hold one the systems in my hand to see the details I'm wondering about. I may just have to buy one, on hope. I could always sell it off new/unused for minimal loss if it doesn't do what I need.

VERY expensive answer to a simple question tho. It moves the chain around, reliably, as does mechanical deraileurs/shifters.

agree 100% -- I would hate the four cables coming from my bars, though. I'm a retro grouch in that respect, as I still prefer downtube shifters. I have no bikes with four cables as is normal these days.
So, the electronic stuff does offer the advantage of eliminating the shift cables coming from the bars. That is the attraction for me.
But, expensive, to be sure. And, if the Di2 simply replaces the shift cables with kludgey messy wire routing, it wouldn't fit my bill. But, I think routing electrical wires is a bit more flexible than shift cables, and a clean setup should be doable.
Again, I see the Di2 really looking sweet on a frame designed for internal routing.

toomanybikes said:

I am rapidly becoming a curmudgeon about these things.

A bicycle is really one of the simplest mechanisms known to man. As a machine it is beautiful in its simplicity.

And yet, the bike and component makers keep searching for ways to make it more complicated.

Di2 is one of "gee whiz" things that I just cannot get my head around. It is not like shifting gears on a bike, ever, was all that complicated that it required this "solution".

Another product designed to separate the gullible from their dollars - strictly my opinion mind you.

I know there are people will be jumping all over it.

I totally agree. Many are in search of performance through gadgets. It has been said many times that "it is the engine and not the car." Train harder, lose the weight and the performance will be there with your existing groupo.

CRAIGTIGARD said:

I totally agree. Many are in search of performance through gadgets. It has been said many times that "it is the engine and not the car." Train harder, lose the weight and the performance will be there with your existing groupo.

i agree with your agreeing and with you as well.

I have Di2 on my Ridley Dean... exceeds all expectations mechanically, horrific aesthetically and therefore aerodynamically.
My question for the forum is can the wires be cut and re-soldered so that I can utilize the internal cable routing? For all I know they are fiber... hate to cut an optical link...

Buy a bike designed around the Di2 to achieve true happiness.. like the Storck.
Dean with Di2 is kinda like bolting a couch in the back of your pick up and calling it a prevost. 🙂

gosh - my nightmare as well -- having the Di2 without a frame designed to integrate with it.
I have no direct knowledge on re-wiring the Di2, but the wires are copper, not fiber. Fiber is used in hi-speed data networks, etc. The Di2 distributes current from the central battery to operate both derailleurs. Input signals from the shifters are transmitted through the same copper. Snipping and re-soldering will work.
Again, no direct experience with Di2 [I'm saving mine for a proper frame design] BUT, I have much experience with re-wiring in both Mavic electronic gruppos (Zap, and Mektronic). The wires in Mektronic are extremely fine, and require care and good soldering technique, as this system transmits shift signals wirelessly, and the rear derailleur has its own battery. The Zap uses nearly as fine a wire gage. I've done what you're proposing to do with both Mavic gruppos with good success [Lotus TT bike with Zap, newer Time VXRS with Mektronic]. Note the Mektronic transmits wirelessly to the rear derailleur, with wires carrying communication from the shift buttons to the computer, which also serves as the transceiver.
I suspect the Di2 wires are certainly no finer than Zap, and probably a bit heavier gage. Again, best guess on the wire gage as I've not yet dissected one.
Good luck, and let us have some pics of the finished clean Ridley build-up!