Shimano 2004

Sheldon Brown said:

They have a new procedure for connecting chains. If you use the special Shimano pin, you're
supposed to orient the chain so that the inner link to be connected is in front of the outer link
that connects to it. This is s'posed to reduce the chance of chain failure.

I wonder if you could explain this in more detail - I can't see how else one would put a chain
together except with the two separate links next to each other.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!

I wrote obscurely:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They have a new procedure for connecting chains. If you use the special Shimano pin, you're
supposed to orient the chain so that the inner link to be connected is in front of the outer link
that connects to it. This is s'posed to reduce the chance of chain failure.

David Damerell asked:

Quoted message said:

I wonder if you could explain this in more detail - I can't see how else one would put a chain
together except with the two separate links next to each other.

Right. The question is which direction the closed joint faces. The inner link is s'posed to face
forward (with respect to the chain motion direction)

Here's some ASCII art.

-------------^---- ------------------
--------------------------
| | | | chain motion --->
--------------------------
------------------ ------------------ ^ Special pin here

Sheldon "Directionalitude" Brown +-------------------------------------------------------------+
| I'm only a beer teetotaller, not a champagne teetotaller. | --George Bernard Shaw |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sheldon Brown said:

They have a new procedure for connecting chains. If you use the special Shimano pin, you're
supposed to orient the chain so that the inner link to be connected is in front of the outer link
that connects to it. This is s'posed to reduce the chance of chain failure.

I wonder if you could explain this in more detail - I can't see how else one would put a chain
together except with the two separate links next to each other.

He's talking about the direction of the chain on the bike. A pair of outer plates connects to
an inner link. Either the inner link is in front (how they now recommend) or behind the outer
plate pair.

Hey Sheldon. Any chance you got to see any of the Capreo stuff? I'm curious what you thought of the
freehub/cogs interface. Also, what did you think of the new 9sp shifter with the trim feature (on
the left) that is being spec'd on many higher-end hybrids (I think it is the SL-440 if memory
serves... which it usually doesn't). Finally, a separate shifter (non brifter) that can be used to
assist those 9 speed conversions with non-standard parts and those "9-speed" cranksets where the
ring spacing is not quite..... Hope you had a great Holiday Season. K Pears.

"The knack lies in learning to throw yourself
- at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams.

"Sheldon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Last night I went to the annual Shimano tech seminar. Here are some nuggets from it.

They have a new procedure for connecting chains. If you use the special Shimano pin, you're
supposed to orient the chain so that the inner link to be connected is in front of the outer link
that connects to it. This is s'posed to reduce the chance of chain failure.

"Hollowtech II" cranks/bottom brackets are now the norm for 4 groups: Dura-Ace and XTR as before,
now also XT and Saint.

This is the system that mounts the actual bearings outboard of the BB shell. This wider spacing
between the two bearing cartridges reduces stress on the bearings.

Since the cartridges don't need to fit inside the shell, they can use larger bearings, and thus a
larger diameter axle. The large diameter axle is a thin wall tube, so in addition to greater
stiffness from the large diameter, it saves a considerable amount of weight. The hollow axle also
makes a good place to hide your stash.

The bearing modules are interchangeable among the 4 different Hollowtech II lines. They are not
the _same_ but they are interchangeable.

The major offroad news is a major revision to the XT group, and the new Saint sub-group.

XT now has most of the new features introduced last year into XTR, updated brifters, spline
mounted brake discs, Hollowtech II crank.

Saint is a heavy-duty premium grouplet, consisting of hubs, rear derailer, brifters and crank.

The derailer is extra beefy, and mounts to the axle, rather than to the frame. The Saint hub has
an oversized through axle, with a 10 mm "skewer" that bolts through from the left end. This
skewer, the same diameter as a standard rear axle, holds the very beefy rear derailer.

The Saint rear derailer is designed to withstand considerable buffeting. They've relocated the
cable anchor to the upper/inner side of the parallelogram, making the external parts smooth so as
not to get snagged on stuff.

The newer derailers from all 4 of these groups have a redesigned parallelogram, with a sort of
hermpahrodite outer plate, which goes inside the upper knuckle, but straddles the lower knuckle.
This is s'posed to make it stiffer.

Good news on the terminology front! They've abandoned the made-up term 'Rapid Rise' and now,
correctly, refer to the XTR, XT and Saint rear derailers as 'low normal."

Shimano plans a renewed push on the Nexus components in the U.S. market. These have reputedly been
selling very well in Europe, but haven't caught on here to any great extent. The new 8-speed hub,
in particular, is a very tasty piece, and I'm eagerly awaiting my first shipment of them. I have
ridden bikes with them out in Las Vegas (sheldonbrown.comlasvegasOpen ↗) but this was the first
opportunity I've had to actually handle a bare hub. I was pleased to note how free-running the
main bearings felt, compared with the 7-speed version. There was a fair amount of stiffness in
turning the sprocket on the axle, but I suspect this was seal drag on this new hub.

I do think they're missing a bet on the 8-speed shifter. They only have two shifters, one is a
twistie, t'other push-button type. Unfortunately, the both have built-in brake levers, making them
incompatible with drop bar applications.

They did show a clever tool for measuring to install the cable anchor bolt on Nexus shift cables.

The Dura-Ace 10-speed setup seems very nice, as one might expect. The crank is drop-dead gorgeous,
and astonishingly light.

The Dura-Ace brifters now have set the shifter axis at an angle, so that the shift levers move
slightly to the rear as they move inward. This is an ergonomic improvement, particularly for folks
with short fingers. The shape of the lever has been slightly revised for the same purpose.

The front of the hood is how taller, reflecting the tendency recently seen for riders to either
tilt their bars higher or mount the brifters higher, as they are spending more of their time
riding on the hoods. Supposedly this new design gives the desired hood provision, while providing
unimpeded access to the brake levers from the drops.

Saint and Dura-Ace Freehubs are totally revised. They have large alumimum axles, use cartridge
bearings for the Freehub ratchet, and have the pawls (3 of them acting together) inboard of the
cassette body, permitting the pawl ring to be larger in diameter.

They still use traditional cup-and-cone bearings, but with 14 3/16" balls rather than the usual
9 1/4"s.

The Dura-Ace 10-speed Freehub has an aluminum body, and the male splines on the Freehub are
taller. As a result, older cassettes won't fit the new body, but the new 10 speed cassettes will
fit older 8-/9-speed hubs.

The reason for this is to prevent damage to the soft aluminum Freehub body by running spiderless
steel sprockets on it. Such sprockets would be liable to "notch" the splines of the Freehub body.
This has been observed on off-brand "boutique" hubs with aluminum cassette bodies in the past.

Sheldon "Newshound" Brown +--------------------------------------------------+
| Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, | somewhere, will not hate it. |
+--------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

K Pears asked:

Quoted message said:

Hey Sheldon. Any chance you got to see any of the Capreo stuff? I'm curious what you thought of
the freehub/cogs interface.

Me too! I have yet to see any Capreo hardware, that wasn't featured or even mentioned at this
presentation. Likely to be a while before we see it in aftermarket...

Quoted message said:

Also, what did you think of the new 9sp shifter with the trim feature (on the left) that is being
spec'd on many higher-end hybrids (I think it is the SL-440 if memory serves...

Haven't seen these, seems like mainly a marketing exercise to me, not importantly different from
their "mountain" shifters.

Quoted message said:

Finally, a separate shifter (non brifter) that can be used to assist those 9 speed conversions
with non-standard parts and those "9-speed" cranksets where the ring spacing is not quite.....

No shortage there. See: harriscyclery.netpage.cfmOpen ↗

There is a lot of confusion about the compatibility of narrow 9-speed chains with older cranksets.
Shimano says you should replace the inner chainring(s) with specially designated 9-speed ones, but
then they're all too eager to sell you stuff, whether you need it or not.

Shimano is also concerned about clueless users. The worst-case scenario is that you will be riding
along with the bike in its highest gear (large front, small rear) and then for some bizarre reason
shift down in front before downshifting in the back. (There is no shift pattern in which it is
reasonable to shift in this sequence.) If you _do_ shift this way, there's a small chance that the
chain might "skate" over the edges of the teeth for maybe half a turn.

In practice this "problem" almost never materializes. Many, many cyclists are using 9-speed chains
with older cranksets and having no problems whatever.

Sheldon "3 Paragraphs Of Boilerplate" Brown +-----------------------------------------------+
| A government that robs Peter to pay Paul | can always depend upon the support of Paul. | --George
| Bernard Shaw |
+-----------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

Sheldon Brown said:

There is a lot of confusion about the compatibility of narrow 9-speed chains with older cranksets.
Shimano says you should replace the inner chainring(s) with specially designated 9-speed ones, but
then they're all too eager to sell you stuff, whether you need it or not.

Excuse me for butting in here but maybe you just solved a weird problem for me. I have Nexave
triple chainrings and crankset on my hybrid that initially came with an 8 speed cassette. Last
year I switched to a nine speed SRAM cassette, XT RD and XT shifters. I ran an SRAM nine speed
chain on this setup, no problems. This chain was recently exchanged since it was down to the 1.0
mark on my Parktool chain gauge and I put on a Deore chain. Now all sorts of weird stuff started
happening on my small chainring. At least when I was putting a lot of tension on the chain in my
very smallest gear ( 26-31). The chain would climb off the granny ring to the inside. NB not when
I changed gears but after climbing some time and putting more pressure on the pedals, as in
steeper hill and slower pedaling. Could this have anything to do with the Shimano replacement
recomenndation you mentioned above?

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

I said:

=20

Quoted message said:

There is a lot of confusion about the compatibility of narrow 9-speed chains with older cranksets.
Shimano says you should replace the inner chainring(s) with specially designated 9-speed ones, but
then they're all too eager to sell you stuff, whether you need it or not.

Per Elms=E4ter asked:

Quoted message said:

=20
Excuse me for butting in here but maybe you just solved a weird problem=

for

Quoted message said:

me. I have Nexave triple chainrings and crankset on my hybrid that init=

ially

Quoted message said:

came with an 8 speed cassette. Last year I switched to a nine speed SRA=

M

Quoted message said:

cassette, XT RD and XT shifters. I ran an SRAM nine speed chain on this=

Quoted message said:

setup, no problems. This chain was recently exchanged since it was down=

to

Quoted message said:

the 1.0 mark on my Parktool chain gauge and I put on a Deore chain. Now=

all

Quoted message said:

sorts of weird stuff started happening on my small chainring. At least =

when

Quoted message said:

I was putting a lot of tension on the chain in my very smallest gear ( 26-31). The chain would
climb off the granny ring to the inside. NB not=

when

Quoted message said:

I changed gears but after climbing some time and putting more pressure =

on

Quoted message said:

the pedals, as in steeper hill and slower pedaling. Could this have anything to do with the
Shimano replacement recomenndat=

ion

Quoted message said:

you mentioned above?

I would say not. If you were having a problem from this minor=20 "mismatch" it would be between the
chainrings, not off the inside.

My guess is that the chainring is worn out.

It's also possible that this is a bigger issue with Shimano chains. I=20 don't much use Shimano
chains, generally preferring SRAM.

Sheldon "Chains" Brown +---------------------------------------------------------+
| Patriotism is your conviction that this country is | superior to all others because you were
| born in it. | -- George Bernard Shaw |
+---------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

Sheldon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

This is the system that mounts the actual bearings outboard of the BB shell. This wider spacing
between the two bearing cartridges reduces stress on the bearings.

i've heard that the new bearings, specifically the XTR 0outboards are failure-prone, to the point
that--at least in december--replacements were unavailable and Dura Ace bearings were recommended as
a substitute. Any veracity to this?

Quoted message said:

The Dura-Ace 10-speed setup seems very nice, as one might expect. The crank is drop-dead gorgeous,
and astonishingly light.

i think it looks like a schlong.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Sheldon Brown said:

I wrote obscurely:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They have a new procedure for connecting chains. If you use the special Shimano pin, you're
supposed to orient the chain so that the inner link to be connected is in front of the outer
link that connects to it. This is s'posed to reduce the chance of chain failure.

David Damerell asked:

Quoted message said:

I wonder if you could explain this in more detail - I can't see how else one would put a chain
together except with the two separate links next to each other.

Right. The question is which direction the closed joint faces. The inner link is s'posed to face
forward (with respect to the chain motion direction)

Here's some ASCII art.

-------------^---- ------------------
--------------------------
| | | | chain motion --->
--------------------------
------------------ ------------------ ^ Special pin here

Sheldon "Directionalitude" Brown

Wow. I'm hoping JB or another engineer weighs in on this. Or maybe you have an idea: aren't they
chasing some _very_ small gains either way with this sort of spec? I'm still trying to envision what
advantage they hope for.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousineOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

Sheldon Brown said:

I said:

Quoted message said:

There is a lot of confusion about the compatibility of narrow 9-speed chains with older
cranksets. Shimano says you should replace the inner chainring(s) with specially designated 9-
speed ones, but then they're all too eager to sell you stuff, whether you need it or not.

Per Elmsäter asked:

Quoted message said:

Excuse me for butting in here but maybe you just solved a weird problem for me. I have Nexave
triple chainrings and crankset on my hybrid that initially came with an 8 speed cassette. Last
year I switched to a nine speed SRAM cassette, XT RD and XT shifters. I ran an SRAM nine speed
chain on this setup, no problems. This chain was recently exchanged since it was down to the 1.0
mark on my Parktool chain gauge and I put on a Deore chain. Now all sorts of weird stuff started
happening on my small chainring. At least when I was putting a lot of tension on the chain in my
very smallest gear ( 26-31). The chain would climb off the granny ring to the inside. NB not when
I changed gears but after climbing some time and putting more pressure on the pedals, as in
steeper hill and slower pedaling. Could this have anything to do with the Shimano replacement
recomenndation you mentioned above?

I would say not. If you were having a problem from this minor "mismatch" it would be between the
chainrings, not off the inside.

My guess is that the chainring is worn out.

It's also possible that this is a bigger issue with Shimano chains. I don't much use Shimano
chains, generally preferring SRAM.

Thanks. Yes more and more is pointing towards worn chainrings. Possibly flexing under load. You
did mention problems between chainrings. I had another problem when the Deore chain was absolutely
new. It started climbing back and forth between the small and middle chainring. At first I thought
that it was skipping cogs in the rear until I actually saw what was happening. After a lot of
adjusting on the FD it has almost stopped doing this. Whichever, it sounds like I need new
chainrings anyway 😉

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

Capt Bike-<< Saint and Dura-Ace Freehubs are totally revised. They have large alumimum axles, use
cartridge bearings for the Freehub ratchet, and have the pawls (3 of them acting together) inboard
of the cassette body, permitting the pawl ring to be larger in diameter. >><BR><BR>

Geee...sounds familiar...

Capt Bike-<< The Dura-Ace 10-speed Freehub has an aluminum body, and the male splines on the Freehub
are taller. As a result, older cassettes won't fit the new body, but the new 10 speed cassettes will
fit older 8-/9-speed hubs.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

This does too....

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

<< Last night I went to the annual Shimano tech seminar. Here are some nuggets from it. >><BR><BR>

I know it was a 'tech' seminar but any info as to how they intend to continue to protect their
distribution? There are still OEM 2004 DA and XTR groups out there for 30-40% less than MSRP...

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

steel-<< The crank is drop-dead gorgeous, and astonishingly light.

i think it looks like a schlong. >><BR><BR>

Or a silver flying squirrel.

I have heard that XTR bearings have already gone thru a running change to make them better sealed.
Hopefully the DA are better sealed. When calling shimano I got the typical, " haven't heard that",
but a shop in Oregon started this with a set of failed XTR bearings.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<< Last night I went to the annual Shimano tech seminar. Here are some nuggets from it. >><BR><BR>

I know it was a 'tech' seminar but any info as to how they intend to

continue

Quoted message said:

to protect their distribution? There are still OEM 2004 DA and XTR groups

out

Quoted message said:

there for 30-40% less than MSRP...

Where? Please let us know as I'm interested in "upgrading". At 30-40% off list, that's quite a bit
of savings. Thanks....

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

BFD-<< Where? Please let us know as I'm interested in "upgrading". At

30-40%

Quoted message said:

off list, that's quite a bit of savings. Thanks.... >><BR><BR>

Jay of Montreal was talking about this. I'm sure there is grey market

DA/XTR/XT

Quoted message said:

and Saint stuff out there. Whether or not it comes with a warranty and

whether

Quoted message said:

or not it is first quality, who knows but the flow isn't going to be

turned off

Quoted message said:

in 1 or 2 years.

Thanks. Hopefully "Jay of Montreal" will let us know where these discounts are. AFter all, isn't
that the purpose of MO and/or buying parts on the internet - to get it cheaper! If I can't get that
big 30-40%+ discount, I might as well buy direct from my LBS...

Thanks for your report.

One thing that I have been curious about is the difference between the Dura-Ace SPD-L pedal models.
Is there any other difference besides the finish between the 7800 and 7750 pedals?

Thanks. -Keith

"Sheldon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Last night I went to the annual Shimano tech seminar. Here are some nuggets from it.

They have a new procedure for connecting chains. If you use the special Shimano pin, you're
supposed to orient the chain so that the inner link to be connected is in front of the outer link
that connects to it. This is s'posed to reduce the chance of chain failure.

"Hollowtech II" cranks/bottom brackets are now the norm for 4 groups: Dura-Ace and XTR as before,
now also XT and Saint.

This is the system that mounts the actual bearings outboard of the BB shell. This wider spacing
between the two bearing cartridges reduces stress on the bearings.

Since the cartridges don't need to fit inside the shell, they can use larger bearings, and thus a
larger diameter axle. The large diameter axle is a thin wall tube, so in addition to greater
stiffness from the large diameter, it saves a considerable amount of weight. The hollow axle also
makes a good place to hide your stash.

The bearing modules are interchangeable among the 4 different Hollowtech II lines. They are not
the _same_ but they are interchangeable.

The major offroad news is a major revision to the XT group, and the new Saint sub-group.

XT now has most of the new features introduced last year into XTR, updated brifters, spline
mounted brake discs, Hollowtech II crank.

Saint is a heavy-duty premium grouplet, consisting of hubs, rear derailer, brifters and crank.

The derailer is extra beefy, and mounts to the axle, rather than to the frame. The Saint hub has
an oversized through axle, with a 10 mm "skewer" that bolts through from the left end. This
skewer, the same diameter as a standard rear axle, holds the very beefy rear derailer.

The Saint rear derailer is designed to withstand considerable buffeting. They've relocated the
cable anchor to the upper/inner side of the parallelogram, making the external parts smooth so as
not to get snagged on stuff.

The newer derailers from all 4 of these groups have a redesigned parallelogram, with a sort of
hermpahrodite outer plate, which goes inside the upper knuckle, but straddles the lower knuckle.
This is s'posed to make it stiffer.

Good news on the terminology front! They've abandoned the made-up term 'Rapid Rise' and now,
correctly, refer to the XTR, XT and Saint rear derailers as 'low normal."

Shimano plans a renewed push on the Nexus components in the U.S. market. These have reputedly been
selling very well in Europe, but haven't caught on here to any great extent. The new 8-speed hub,
in particular, is a very tasty piece, and I'm eagerly awaiting my first shipment of them. I have
ridden bikes with them out in Las Vegas (sheldonbrown.comlasvegasOpen ↗) but this was the first
opportunity I've had to actually handle a bare hub. I was pleased to note how free-running the
main bearings felt, compared with the 7-speed version. There was a fair amount of stiffness in
turning the sprocket on the axle, but I suspect this was seal drag on this new hub.

I do think they're missing a bet on the 8-speed shifter. They only have two shifters, one is a
twistie, t'other push-button type. Unfortunately, the both have built-in brake levers, making them
incompatible with drop bar applications.

They did show a clever tool for measuring to install the cable anchor bolt on Nexus shift cables.

The Dura-Ace 10-speed setup seems very nice, as one might expect. The crank is drop-dead gorgeous,
and astonishingly light.

The Dura-Ace brifters now have set the shifter axis at an angle, so that the shift levers move
slightly to the rear as they move inward. This is an ergonomic improvement, particularly for folks
with short fingers. The shape of the lever has been slightly revised for the same purpose.

The front of the hood is how taller, reflecting the tendency recently seen for riders to either
tilt their bars higher or mount the brifters higher, as they are spending more of their time
riding on the hoods. Supposedly this new design gives the desired hood provision, while providing
unimpeded access to the brake levers from the drops.

Saint and Dura-Ace Freehubs are totally revised. They have large alumimum axles, use cartridge
bearings for the Freehub ratchet, and have the pawls (3 of them acting together) inboard of the
cassette body, permitting the pawl ring to be larger in diameter.

They still use traditional cup-and-cone bearings, but with 14 3/16" balls rather than the usual
9 1/4"s.

The Dura-Ace 10-speed Freehub has an aluminum body, and the male splines on the Freehub are
taller. As a result, older cassettes won't fit the new body, but the new 10 speed cassettes will
fit older 8-/9-speed hubs.

The reason for this is to prevent damage to the soft aluminum Freehub body by running spiderless
steel sprockets on it. Such sprockets would be liable to "notch" the splines of the Freehub body.
This has been observed on off-brand "boutique" hubs with aluminum cassette bodies in the past.

Sheldon "Newshound" Brown +--------------------------------------------------+
| Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, | somewhere, will not hate it. |
+--------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

OK, I'll bite...

Quoted message said:

Saint and Dura-Ace Freehubs are totally revised.

...

They still use traditional cup-and-cone bearings, but with 14 3/16" balls rather than the usual
9 1/4"s.

Wow, 28 instead of 18 balls to lose. So why would Shimano do this? It seems to me that the larger
balls would roll better under the greater load as compared to the front. Why go with smaller balls
in the rear hub?? I don't get it. For weight savings?? To match the front hub?

Dave

BTW, I meant the SPD SL not SPD-L.

"D. Keith Arbuckle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thanks for your report.

One thing that I have been curious about is the difference between the Dura-Ace SPD-L pedal
models. Is there any other difference besides the finish between the 7800 and 7750 pedals?

Thanks. -Keith

I reported:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Saint and Dura-Ace Freehubs are totally revised.

... They still use traditional cup-and-cone bearings, but with 14 3/16" balls rather than the
usual 9 1/4"s.

Someone asked:

Quoted message said:

Wow, 28 instead of 18 balls to lose. So why would Shimano do this? It seems to me that the larger
balls would roll better under the greater load as compared to the front. Why go with smaller balls
in the rear hub?? I don't get it. For weight savings?? To match the front hub?

These hubs have oversized aluminum axles. They're oversized to make them strong, needed since,
unlike previous Shimano Freehubs, the right side main bearing is inboard of the cassette, so there
would be a risk of bending a standard diameter axle. Also, the larger diameter lets them use
aluminum for the axle, reducing weight.

The reason for moving the main bearing inboard was to permit them to also move the pawl ring inward,
and thus to considerably increase the pawl radius, since the pawl mechanism no longer needs to fit
the inside of the splined sprocket body. This makes a stronger ratchet with less lost motion as the
drive is taken up.

Since the axle is oversized, the circle of bearing balls also has to be oversized. Since the ball
circle is larger, they can fit more balls into it. Since they can fit more balls, they don't need to
be as large. If they used, say, a dozen 1/4" balls in a similar circle, the outer race would become
larger, adding weight and probably leading to a non-standard flange diameter.

Basically all of this was done in aid of either lightness or durability or some combination
of the two.

Sheldon "One Thing Leads To Another" Brown +----------------------------------------------------------------------
+
| People who have invested in moulds - literally or figuratively - | will always oppose things that
| they can't stamp out of those moulds.| -- Andy Dyson. |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West
Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find
parts shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗