shimagnolo confusion

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Just having been burned by a low mileage right Ultegra 9spd STI lever
failure, I'm seriously considering putting the $150 replacement cost
towards some Ergo levers and rear derailleur. Per the posts in this
newsgroup, that should be all I need to do to have reliable shifts with
my brand new Shimano 9spd cassette. However, this evening I was at the
shop where I had purchased the bike with the failed lever, and was told
that I'd need a Campy cassette which would require a different hub and
therefor at the very least a wheel rebuild, too.

So what's with the mixed messages? Why would the owner of the shop
discourage me from mixing the Shimano cassette with the Campagnolo
shifters and derailleur when he could have sold me the Campagnolo gear
himself? My cassette is unfortunately a 105 which would require
drilling in order to replace the spacers between the cogs if that does
indeed make a significant difference.

Quoted message said:

From the other posts I've read in this group, it appears that Centaur

and Veloce are identical (save a hole in a lever) and therefor the
Veloce's are a pretty reasonable way to go. Can the Centaur and/or
Veloce levers be upgraded to 10 speed in the future if 9spd fades into
the past? Also, since I may be purchasing a used 9 spd rear
derailleur, I'm wondering whether there are any differences in the
indexing for various years of these, or is any Campy 9spd rear
derailleur as good as any other?

The bike sees dual duty as my cross and road bike, and I know that the
levers are going to see a lot more abuse in future cross seasons. The
failed lever barely lasted into the start of its second season of cross
racing.

If you have to change the brand of cassette, won't you also have to
change the wheel? There are so many incompatibilities around and a
number of workaround/adaptors. But I would say it's never a good idea to
use adaptors for these reasons.

Shimano does not appear to be a company that make bad equipments, and
it's likely that you got a bum lot. Why not just stay with Shimano,
perhaps DA is better built.
--

Quoted message said:

Thanks for your help,
Victor

Victor: Campy 9-speed (shifters matched with derailleurs) will work very
well on a stock Shimano 9-speed cassette. No need to replace hubs or
spacers. Shimano 9-speed spacing is 4.35mm cog center to center. Campy
9-speed is 4.55. If you center the rear derailleur on the middle cog in the
cassette when doing the your derailleur adjustment, the total error at the
ends of the casette is a tolerable 0.8mm. I have run this setup for years.

There are 2 generations of Campy 9-speed levers and derailleurs. Before
2001 and after. The cog spacing remained the same. The after 2001 levers
pull slightly less cable per cog, and therefore the derailleurs are designed
to travel more per unit of cable pull. If you are fussy and are really
concerned about the word "error" above paragraph, the new 9-speed levers
matched with the older derailleurs produce 4.35mm of travel per click.
Exact Shimano spacing. But practically, you will not notice a difference in
using the new and the older generation of derailleurs.

Other than the vintage detail, all Campy 9-speed levers work the same:
Mirage to Record.

Dave Mayer said:

Quoted message said:

Thanks for your help,
Victor

Victor: Campy 9-speed (shifters matched with derailleurs) will work very
well on a stock Shimano 9-speed cassette. No need to replace hubs or
spacers. Shimano 9-speed spacing is 4.35mm cog center to center. Campy
9-speed is 4.55. If you center the rear derailleur on the middle cog in the
cassette when doing the your derailleur adjustment, the total error at the
ends of the casette is a tolerable 0.8mm. I have run this setup for years.

There are 2 generations of Campy 9-speed levers and derailleurs. Before
2001 and after. The cog spacing remained the same. The after 2001 levers
pull slightly less cable per cog, and therefore the derailleurs are designed
to travel more per unit of cable pull. If you are fussy and are really
concerned about the word "error" above paragraph, the new 9-speed levers
matched with the older derailleurs produce 4.35mm of travel per click.
Exact Shimano spacing. But practically, you will not notice a difference in
using the new and the older generation of derailleurs.

Other than the vintage detail, all Campy 9-speed levers work the same:
Mirage to Record.

Dear Dave,

I rarely get past the first sentence in a Shimagnolo post because the
topic doesn't interest me, but I found myself reading all the way to
the end of your reply to Victor and wishing that there was more.

That's awfully well-written.

Thanks,

Carl Fogel

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Just having been burned by a low mileage right Ultegra 9spd STI lever
failure, I'm seriously considering putting the $150 replacement cost
towards some Ergo levers and rear derailleur. Per the posts in this
newsgroup, that should be all I need to do to have reliable shifts with
my brand new Shimano 9spd cassette. However, this evening I was at the
shop where I had purchased the bike with the failed lever, and was told
that I'd need a Campy cassette which would require a different hub and
therefor at the very least a wheel rebuild, too.

Quoted message said:

Thanks for your help,
Victor

There are two popular ways to make this work. Buy a Campagnolo rear
derailleur and use the Shimano cassette and chain or pick up a Jtek
ShiftMate and use your current rear RD. I use Record shifters with Dura-Ace
rear derailleur, cassette and chain and it works perfectly. There is also
some cable rerouting option out there but I don't have any experience with
that one.

http://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate.htm

Tim McTeague

Quoted message said:

Just having been burned by a low mileage right Ultegra 9spd STI lever
failure, I'm seriously considering putting the $150 replacement cost
towards some Ergo levers and rear derailleur. Per the posts in this
newsgroup, that should be all I need to do to have reliable shifts with
my brand new Shimano 9spd cassette. However, this evening I was at the
shop where I had purchased the bike with the failed lever, and was told
that I'd need a Campy cassette which would require a different hub and
therefor at the very least a wheel rebuild, too.

Balderdash, I just put on Campag Centaur 10s ERGO, Record RD onto a
gent's Litespeed with 9s shimano cogset(105 level) and chain...works
great, thanks.

Quoted message said:

So what's with the mixed messages? Why would the owner of the shop
discourage me from mixing the Shimano cassette with the Campagnolo
shifters and derailleur when he could have sold me the Campagnolo gear
himself?

Maybe he just doesn't know or has tried it?? On face value, saying you
could use 10s shifters with a 9s spaced cogset may sound like it
doesn't work until he tried it.

My cassette is unfortunately a 105 which would require

Quoted message said:

drilling in order to replace the spacers between the cogs if that does
indeed make a significant difference.

See above.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From the other posts I've read in this group, it appears that Centaur

and Veloce are identical (save a hole in a lever) and therefor the
Veloce's are a pretty reasonable way to go. Can the Centaur and/or
Veloce levers be upgraded to 10 speed in the future if 9spd fades into
the past?

The differences between cog spacing is LESS between Campag 10s and
shimano 9s than Campag 9s and shimano 9s...but yes, any 9s lever can be
upgraded to 10s from 1999 to today

Also, since I may be purchasing a used 9 spd rear

Quoted message said:

derailleur, I'm wondering whether there are any differences in the
indexing for various years of these, or is any Campy 9spd rear
derailleur as good as any other?

Nope.

Quoted message said:

The bike sees dual duty as my cross and road bike, and I know that the
levers are going to see a lot more abuse in future cross seasons. The
failed lever barely lasted into the start of its second season of cross
racing.

I apologize for any redundancy in this message that has been covered in
other posts. I've searched through the posts to this group to gather
some of my information and am hoping that others will also benefit from
your responses.

Thanks for your help,
Victor

call me if you have any questions. I have put Campag 10s ERGO and RD
onto MANY shimano 9s systems w/o any problem. The LBS just needs to try
it.

Dave Mayer said:

Quoted message said:

Thanks for your help,
Victor

Victor: Campy 9-speed (shifters matched with derailleurs) will work very
well on a stock Shimano 9-speed cassette. No need to replace hubs or
spacers. Shimano 9-speed spacing is 4.35mm cog center to center. Campy
9-speed is 4.55. If you center the rear derailleur on the middle cog in the
cassette when doing the your derailleur adjustment, the total error at the
ends of the casette is a tolerable 0.8mm. I have run this setup for years.

I'll echo what Dave said. For example, I run a Shimano hub on the
back of my 9-speed Campy tandem - works like a champ, shifts perfectly
from one end of the cassette to the other.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Quoted message said:

Just having been burned by a low mileage right Ultegra 9spd STI lever
failure, I'm seriously considering putting the $150 replacement cost
towards some Ergo levers and rear derailleur. Per the posts in this
newsgroup, that should be all I need to do to have reliable shifts with
my brand new Shimano 9spd cassette. However, this evening I was at the
shop where I had purchased the bike with the failed lever, and was told
that I'd need a Campy cassette which would require a different hub and
therefor at the very least a wheel rebuild, too.

So what's with the mixed messages? Why would the owner of the shop
discourage me from mixing the Shimano cassette with the Campagnolo
shifters and derailleur when he could have sold me the Campagnolo gear
himself?

Because he would have to stand behind it and would prefer to do everything
according to the manufacturer's recommendation so that they will stand behind
him.

The difference in spacing between S and C cogs is 0.2mm that's just under eight
thousandths of an inch; .008 inches; the thickness of two stacked dollar bills;
thinner than the skinniest guitar string; the width of one of the grains of sand
that'll get dragged in there by the chain on any 'cross race; in technical
terms, about one EPH. Any derailleur that could run reliably can handle that
kinds of misalignment.

Quoted message said:

My cassette is unfortunately a 105 which would require
drilling in order to replace the spacers between the cogs if that does
indeed make a significant difference.

Not needed.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From the other posts I've read in this group, it appears that Centaur

and Veloce are identical (save a hole in a lever) and therefor the
Veloce's are a pretty reasonable way to go. Can the Centaur and/or
Veloce levers be upgraded to 10 speed in the future if 9spd fades into
the past? Also, since I may be purchasing a used 9 spd rear
derailleur, I'm wondering whether there are any differences in the
indexing for various years of these, or is any Campy 9spd rear
derailleur as good as any other?

Any recent Campy der will shift the same, pricier ones are lighter and may last
longer in a civilized environment.

Quoted message said:

The bike sees dual duty as my cross and road bike, and I know that the
levers are going to see a lot more abuse in future cross seasons. The
failed lever barely lasted into the start of its second season of cross
racing.

My present cross bike setup is 9s Mirage levers and Ders. Up front I'm running a
D/A crank with FSA 48-39 rings and I have two wheelsets, one with Chorus hubs
and the other with D/A hubs and a 105 cassette. When I switch wheels I need to
adjust cable tension by 1/2 a turn. That's it. Actually a bit of fudging with
the small cog limit screw would perfect it, but I don't bother and just leave
that set for a happy medium. I don't use either the large or small cog all that
much.

Ron

Quoted message said:

I apologize for any redundancy in this message that has been covered in
other posts. I've searched through the posts to this group to gather
some of my information and am hoping that others will also benefit from
your responses.

Thanks for your help,
Victor

Artoi said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Just having been burned by a low mileage right Ultegra 9spd STI lever
failure, I'm seriously considering putting the $150 replacement cost
towards some Ergo levers and rear derailleur. Per the posts in this
newsgroup, that should be all I need to do to have reliable shifts with
my brand new Shimano 9spd cassette. However, this evening I was at the
shop where I had purchased the bike with the failed lever, and was told
that I'd need a Campy cassette which would require a different hub and
therefor at the very least a wheel rebuild, too.

So what's with the mixed messages? Why would the owner of the shop
discourage me from mixing the Shimano cassette with the Campagnolo
shifters and derailleur when he could have sold me the Campagnolo gear
himself? My cassette is unfortunately a 105 which would require
drilling in order to replace the spacers between the cogs if that does
indeed make a significant difference.

Quoted message said:

From the other posts I've read in this group, it appears that Centaur

and Veloce are identical (save a hole in a lever) and therefor the
Veloce's are a pretty reasonable way to go. Can the Centaur and/or
Veloce levers be upgraded to 10 speed in the future if 9spd fades into
the past? Also, since I may be purchasing a used 9 spd rear
derailleur, I'm wondering whether there are any differences in the
indexing for various years of these, or is any Campy 9spd rear
derailleur as good as any other?

The bike sees dual duty as my cross and road bike, and I know that the
levers are going to see a lot more abuse in future cross seasons. The
failed lever barely lasted into the start of its second season of cross
racing.

If you have to change the brand of cassette, won't you also have to
change the wheel? There are so many incompatibilities around and a
number of workaround/adaptors. But I would say it's never a good idea to
use adaptors for these reasons.

Shimano does not appear to be a company that make bad equipments, and
it's likely that you got a bum lot. Why not just stay with Shimano,
perhaps DA is better built.

He rides 'cross and the mud and sand and wood chips and tall grass and
inevitable collisions and drops will destroy anything, no matter how expensive.
It's best to get lower end stuff, preferably things that can be rebuilt.

Ron

Tim McTeague said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Just having been burned by a low mileage right Ultegra 9spd STI lever
failure, I'm seriously considering putting the $150 replacement cost
towards some Ergo levers and rear derailleur. Per the posts in this
newsgroup, that should be all I need to do to have reliable shifts with
my brand new Shimano 9spd cassette. However, this evening I was at the
shop where I had purchased the bike with the failed lever, and was told
that I'd need a Campy cassette which would require a different hub and
therefor at the very least a wheel rebuild, too.

Quoted message said:

Thanks for your help,
Victor

There are two popular ways to make this work. Buy a Campagnolo rear
derailleur and use the Shimano cassette and chain or pick up a Jtek
ShiftMate and use your current rear RD. I use Record shifters with Dura-Ace
rear derailleur, cassette and chain and it works perfectly. There is also
some cable rerouting option out there but I don't have any experience with
that one.

http://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate.htm

Here's another - Use 10 speed Campy levers and connect the cables to the Shimano
rear der "Hubbub" style. I personally haven't used this one, but I did do the
Hubbub Campy 9 to Shimano 8 and it performed absolutely perfectly.

Ron

Quoted message said:

Victor: Campy 9-speed (shifters matched with derailleurs) will work very
well on a stock Shimano 9-speed cassette. No need to replace hubs or
spacers. Shimano 9-speed spacing is 4.35mm cog center to center. Campy
9-speed is 4.55. If you center the rear derailleur on the middle cog in the
cassette when doing the your derailleur adjustment, the total error at the
ends of the casette is a tolerable 0.8mm. I have run this setup for years.

Thanks for your response, and thanks also to the others who responded.
It is especially reassuring to hear from professionals who stand behind
this setup for their customers. I was told at the shop that they
couldn't get this kind of setup to work, but the cost of 9 spd Ergo
levers these days is low enough that I'd probably have given it a shot
anyway.

Incidentally, I think what killed the shifter was cyclocross racing.
The outer/large lever moves when I try to shift with the inside/small
lever which prevents the shift from taking place. If I hold the outer
lever with one hand and shift the inner lever with the other, it works
just fine. This is pretty tricky to do while riding, unfortunately.
I've tried flooding it with WD40 and will probably try that again
another couple of times. I suspect that enough grit has accumulated
within the shifter (or perhaps damage occurred during a crash) to have
caused this failure, and it seems likely that it would happen again
with another Shimano lever.

I know that this subject has been discussed many times over, so I do
appreciate the willingness to dredge it up again for my benefit.

Victor

My ultegra 9 brifter broke and I replaced it with Centaur-10
and the alternate cable routing method on the derailleur,
and it works superbly. I'll never use a Shimano lever set
again. Unless sponsored in the Fatty Master Boulevard
Cruise by Shimano, manufacturer of the worlds best, of course.

-dB

One of two things:

1. He wants to sell you a new wheel

2. (Most likely), he doesn't have personal experience. He knows that if
he sells you just the shifters and derailleur, he will then have some
personal support responsibilities.

Quoted message said:

Just having been burned by a low mileage right Ultegra 9spd STI lever
failure, I'm seriously considering putting the $150 replacement cost
towards some Ergo levers and rear derailleur. Per the posts in this
newsgroup, that should be all I need to do to have reliable shifts with
my brand new Shimano 9spd cassette. However, this evening I was at the
shop where I had purchased the bike with the failed lever, and was told
that I'd need a Campy cassette which would require a different hub and
therefor at the very least a wheel rebuild, too.

So what's with the mixed messages? Why would the owner of the shop
discourage me from mixing the Shimano cassette with the Campagnolo
shifters and derailleur when he could have sold me the Campagnolo gear
himself? My cassette is unfortunately a 105 which would require
drilling in order to replace the spacers between the cogs if that does
indeed make a significant difference.

Quoted message said:

From the other posts I've read in this group, it appears that Centaur

and Veloce are identical (save a hole in a lever) and therefor the
Veloce's are a pretty reasonable way to go. Can the Centaur and/or
Veloce levers be upgraded to 10 speed in the future if 9spd fades into
the past? Also, since I may be purchasing a used 9 spd rear
derailleur, I'm wondering whether there are any differences in the
indexing for various years of these, or is any Campy 9spd rear
derailleur as good as any other?

The bike sees dual duty as my cross and road bike, and I know that the
levers are going to see a lot more abuse in future cross seasons. The
failed lever barely lasted into the start of its second season of cross
racing.

I apologize for any redundancy in this message that has been covered in
other posts. I've searched through the posts to this group to gather
some of my information and am hoping that others will also benefit from
your responses.

Thanks for your help,
Victor

Quoted message said:

My cassette is unfortunately a 105 which would require
drilling in order to replace the spacers between the cogs if that does
indeed make a significant difference.

No need to take your cassette apart, but it is assembled with three tiny
hexbolts inserted from the side with the smaller cog

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl