Sharing the roads safely

Jem Berkes said:

I'd appreciate your feedback on this. I'm trying to minimize risk to myself
as I bicycle in an urban area, on roads that don't have bicycle lanes.
Winnipeg (Canada) is not a city that is friendly to cyclists.

It seems to me that parked cars (opening doors), debris, breaks in the road
surface and other obstacles all pose major risks. So do buses behind and in
front of you, who might not see you as they swing away from stops.

I have been leaning towards riding in the center of a lane, away from the
curb. By occupying an entire lane you discourage motorized vehicles from
squeezing by you. Most of my close calls have been with trucks and other
wide vehicles squeezing by me when I'm by the right curb, with only inches
to spare.

The law in my province requires that cyclists stay as close to the curb
as is safe. Riding in the center of the lane, encouraging cars to find
their own lanes, seems to me safer than hugging the curb and is definitely
within my legal rights. Opinions on this approach? What's the safest way?

Jim, I too live in the 'peg and cycle here. I've found very few roads
on which I can safely cycle within 2 feet of the curb. I generally ride
2.5 to 3 feet from the curb. I find that drivers tend to change lanes
to pass me. One good thing about Winnipeg is that it's usually easy to
find relatively quiet roads to get from point A to point B (not
necessarily 100% of the distance and not without some extra distance
but...).

Ride as close to the curb as YOU feel is safe. If you get ticketed
(unlikely), you have the simple defense that IN YOUR OPINION you were
riding as close to the curb as was safe. Given the amount of sand and
glass, etc, that lies near the curb of most streets here, it would be
hard for a cop to argue against you.

I hit some glass last week - cost me a new rear tire.

Ride safe.

Jeff

Jem Berkes said:

The law in my province requires that cyclists stay as close to the curb
as is safe. Riding in the center of the lane, encouraging cars to find
their own lanes, seems to me safer than hugging the curb and is definitely
within my legal rights. Opinions on this approach? What's the safest way?

I dunno if you're in Onterrible, but if so, it's a common
misconception that you MUST stay far to the right. The Highway Traffic
Act actually states that you must ride so as to avoid the hazards on
the right, but you must ride in a straight line, i.e. if there are
parked cars or sewer gratings, you must not swerve in and out around
them. The generally accepted distance from the curb or cars is 1
metre. Check out the Ontario Drivers & Licenses website. There's a
wealth of safety & law type stuff on there for cyclists. It is quite
acceptable on any but higher speed highways to use the portion of the
lane normally occupied by the right wheels of a car.

"Jem Berkes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'd appreciate your feedback on this. I'm trying to minimize risk to

myself

Quoted message said:

as I bicycle in an urban area, on roads that don't have bicycle lanes.
Winnipeg (Canada) is not a city that is friendly to cyclists.

It seems to me that parked cars (opening doors), debris, breaks in the

road

Quoted message said:

surface and other obstacles all pose major risks. So do buses behind and

in

Quoted message said:

front of you, who might not see you as they swing away from stops.

I have been leaning towards riding in the center of a lane, away from the
curb. By occupying an entire lane you discourage motorized vehicles from
squeezing by you. Most of my close calls have been with trucks and other
wide vehicles squeezing by me when I'm by the right curb, with only inches
to spare.

The law in my province requires that cyclists stay as close to the curb
as is safe. Riding in the center of the lane, encouraging cars to find
their own lanes, seems to me safer than hugging the curb and is definitely
within my legal rights. Opinions on this approach? What's the safest way?

--
Jem Berkes
http://www.sysdesign.ca/

I agree heartily. So far the number of motorists who will not (with malice)
intentionall try to kill you still outnumber those who will (but who knows
how long that will last). Therefore being seen is numero uno!
....but i think it also depends on the situation and how much room there is
on the right. Like if your in a spot blind to someone coming up behind you
like over a hill or around a curve it's probably best to stay out of the way
of anyone speeding and not paying attention.

"Jem Berkes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The law in my province requires that cyclists stay as close to the curb
as is safe. Riding in the center of the lane, encouraging cars to find
their own lanes, seems to me safer than hugging the curb and is definitely
within my legal rights. Opinions on this approach? What's the safest way?

http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/usa/index.htm

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:56:03 GMT, Jem Berkes <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The law in my province requires that cyclists stay as close to the curb
as is safe. Riding in the center of the lane, encouraging cars to find
their own lanes, seems to me safer than hugging the curb and is definitely
within my legal rights. Opinions on this approach? What's the safest way?

Sounds reasonable on your roads. Where I ride, I don't have to take
the lane all the time, just sometimes.

Maybe you should try something like this:
http://danenet.wicip.org/bcp/spike.html
--
Rick Onanian

Jem Berkes said:

I have been leaning towards riding in the center of a lane, away from the
curb. By occupying an entire lane you discourage motorized vehicles from
squeezing by you.

Jem,

You are describing the technique of taking the lane advocated by John
Forester and John Allen. See Allen's "Street Smarts" at:

http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/usa/chapter2a.htm

RFM

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

I'd appreciate your feedback on this. I'm trying to minimize risk to myself
as I bicycle in an urban area, on roads that don't have bicycle lanes.
Winnipeg (Canada) is not a city that is friendly to cyclists.
It seems to me that parked cars (opening doors), debris, breaks in the road
surface and other obstacles all pose major risks. So do buses behind and in
front of you, who might not see you as they swing away from stops.
I have been leaning towards riding in the center of a lane, away from the
curb. By occupying an entire lane you discourage motorized vehicles from
squeezing by you. Most of my close calls have been with trucks and other
wide vehicles squeezing by me when I'm by the right curb, with only inches
to spare.
The law in my province requires that cyclists stay as close to the curb
as is safe. Riding in the center of the lane, encouraging cars to find
their own lanes, seems to me safer than hugging the curb and is definitely
within my legal rights. Opinions on this approach? What's the safest way?

As long as there is more than one lane of traffic, what you describe is
the best way to do it.
-----------
Alex

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have been leaning towards riding in the center of a lane, away from
the curb. By occupying an entire lane you discourage motorized
vehicles from squeezing by you.

Jem,

You are describing the technique of taking the lane advocated by John
Forester and John Allen. See Allen's "Street Smarts" at:

http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/usa/chapter2a.htm

Thanks for the replies, and the URLs. I'll be sure to refer others to this
resource as well.

--
Jem Berkes
http://www.sysdesign.ca/

in article [email hidden], Jeff Williams at
[email hidden] wrote on 7/19/04 8:42 PM:

Quoted message said:

Jem Berkes said:

I'd appreciate your feedback on this. I'm trying to minimize risk to myself
as I bicycle in an urban area, on roads that don't have bicycle lanes.
Winnipeg (Canada) is not a city that is friendly to cyclists.

It seems to me that parked cars (opening doors), debris, breaks in the road
surface and other obstacles all pose major risks. So do buses behind and in
front of you, who might not see you as they swing away from stops.

I have been leaning towards riding in the center of a lane, away from the
curb. By occupying an entire lane you discourage motorized vehicles from
squeezing by you. Most of my close calls have been with trucks and other
wide vehicles squeezing by me when I'm by the right curb, with only inches
to spare.

The law in my province requires that cyclists stay as close to the curb
as is safe. Riding in the center of the lane, encouraging cars to find
their own lanes, seems to me safer than hugging the curb and is definitely
within my legal rights. Opinions on this approach? What's the safest way?

Jim, I too live in the 'peg and cycle here. I've found very few roads
on which I can safely cycle within 2 feet of the curb. I generally ride
2.5 to 3 feet from the curb. I find that drivers tend to change lanes
to pass me. One good thing about Winnipeg is that it's usually easy to
find relatively quiet roads to get from point A to point B (not
necessarily 100% of the distance and not without some extra distance
but...).

Ride as close to the curb as YOU feel is safe. If you get ticketed
(unlikely), you have the simple defense that IN YOUR OPINION you were
riding as close to the curb as was safe. Given the amount of sand and
glass, etc, that lies near the curb of most streets here, it would be
hard for a cop to argue against you.

I hit some glass last week - cost me a new rear tire.

Ride safe.

http://www.bikehighway.com/cyclinglaws.htm#Canadian%20Laws:

Also view "Cycling Skills" at http://www.mto.gov.on.ca

BTW I live in Ontario and the Ministry of Transportation suggest that
cyclist be a MINIMUM of one metre from the edge of the driven portion of the
road.
The key word in the Ontario Highway Traffic Act is "as far to the right as
is *practicable*"
That is interpreted as meaning that you should be operating for safety in
the road conditions and grates, gravel, glass and chunks of road need to be
avoided on a straight path.

That's easy. Outlaw cars.

Atleast in Austin.

Dora

--

Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, Texas
[email hidden]
"Jem Berkes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'd appreciate your feedback on this. I'm trying to minimize risk to

myself

Quoted message said:

as I bicycle in an urban area, on roads that don't have bicycle lanes.
Winnipeg (Canada) is not a city that is friendly to cyclists.

It seems to me that parked cars (opening doors), debris, breaks in the

road

Quoted message said:

surface and other obstacles all pose major risks. So do buses behind and

in

Quoted message said:

front of you, who might not see you as they swing away from stops.

I have been leaning towards riding in the center of a lane, away from the
curb. By occupying an entire lane you discourage motorized vehicles from
squeezing by you. Most of my close calls have been with trucks and other
wide vehicles squeezing by me when I'm by the right curb, with only inches
to spare.

The law in my province requires that cyclists stay as close to the curb
as is safe. Riding in the center of the lane, encouraging cars to find
their own lanes, seems to me safer than hugging the curb and is definitely
within my legal rights. Opinions on this approach? What's the safest way?

--
Jem Berkes
http://www.sysdesign.ca/

Dora Smith said:

That's easy. Outlaw cars.

And trucks... don't forget about trucks!

Quoted message said:

Atleast in Austin.

Everywhere.

"Dora Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

That's easy. Outlaw cars.

Atleast in Austin.

Dora

Easy? Hmm. Do tell us what date you are going to do it.

If you just mean "easiest", I presume that you are trying to tell us
that until cars are abolished, it is highly inadvisable to ride a
bike in Austin

In other words, anyone who does so is a reckless idiot, who should
know what is coming to him.

I can just picture the defense lawyer's speech, "Even the expert
cyclists on the internet say that the plaintiff's action, actually
riding a bike in public, was a stupid thing to do."

Jeremy Parker

Jem Berkes <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I'd appreciate your feedback on this. I'm trying to minimize risk to myself
as I bicycle in an urban area, ...
I have been leaning towards riding in the center of a lane, away from the
curb. By occupying an entire lane you discourage motorized vehicles from
squeezing by you.

---------------------------

exactly right... you are MUCH safer in the middle. more visible, less
debris, no car doors, etc. only a real psycho will run you down on
purpose. 😉

riding along the edge in an urban setting, especially with streetside
parking, is really asking for trouble. all it takes is one car door,
or somebody who doesn't know exactly how wide their vehicle is....

d

Dora Smith said:

Riding in the center of the lane, encouraging cars to find

Quoted message said:

their own lanes, seems to me safer than hugging the curb and is definitely
within my legal rights. Opinions on this approach? What's the safest way?

This is the approach advocated by the (UK) cyclists' handbook,
'Cyclecraft'. This is published by The Stationery Office - formerly
HMSO, so would appear to have some credibility.
--

Cheers,

Al

-as long as the number of motorists who will avoid hitting you when they see
you is greater than the number of motorists who will try to run you over
when they see you it's safer to take your lane- but i think this ratio is
changing

"Al C-F" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dora Smith said:

Riding in the center of the lane, encouraging cars to find

Quoted message said:

their own lanes, seems to me safer than hugging the curb and is

definitely

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

within my legal rights. Opinions on this approach? What's the safest

way?

Quoted message said:

This is the approach advocated by the (UK) cyclists' handbook,
'Cyclecraft'. This is published by The Stationery Office - formerly
HMSO, so would appear to have some credibility.
--

Cheers,

Al

Watching the Tour de France, I couldn't help but be amused by the
irony of the Saab commercial -- you know, the one where the road is
"more sticky" so you can drive REEEEEEEAAAAL fast (professional driver
on a closed course, don't try this at home, yeah, right).

THen they proceed to drive the damn thing over hills and around curves
on this narrow winding country road at speeds that clearly preclude
them seeing what they are going to be driving into -- farm machinery,
deer, "vehicular cyclists taking the lane" -- the latter of whom
would be turned into bug food.

Just a funny juxtaposition.

<SNIP>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Riding in the center of the lane, encouraging cars to find
> their own lanes, seems to me safer than hugging the curb and is

definitely

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> within my legal rights. Opinions on this approach? What's the safest

way?

<SNIP>

I didn't see the beginning of this thread, but it depends where you are. Here
in NY (and in some other states as well) riding in the center of the lane is not
legal unless there are hazards that prevent you from getting closer to the side
of the road or if you are making a left turn.

Ben

Ben Kaufman said:

<SNIP>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Riding in the center of the lane, encouraging cars to find
>
>>their own lanes, seems to me safer than hugging the curb and is

definitely

Quoted message said:

>>within my legal rights. Opinions on this approach? What's the safest

way?

<SNIP>

I didn't see the beginning of this thread, but it depends where you are. Here
in NY (and in some other states as well) riding in the center of the lane is not
legal unless there are hazards that prevent you from getting closer to the side
of the road or if you are making a left turn.

Seems to me that a car trying to squeeze by you when there's too little
room to safely pass _is_ a "hazard that prevents you from getting
closer to the side of the road."

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

"Frank Krygowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ben Kaufman said:

<SNIP>

Quoted message said:

>>Riding in the center of the lane, encouraging cars to find
>>
>>>their own lanes, seems to me safer than hugging the curb and

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

definitely

>>>within my legal rights. Opinions on this approach? What's the

safest

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

way?

<SNIP>

I didn't see the beginning of this thread, but it depends where

you are. Here

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in NY (and in some other states as well) riding in the center of

the lane is not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

legal unless there are hazards that prevent you from getting

closer to the side

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the road or if you are making a left turn.

Seems to me that a car trying to squeeze by you when there's too

little

Quoted message said:

room to safely pass _is_ a "hazard that prevents you from getting
closer to the side of the road."

I fully agree that, if the lane is too narrow to share, you not only
have the right, you have the duty, to keep the motorist from trying
to share.

I fully accept that the decision about what width is acceptable has
to lie with the cyclist, not the motorist.

Nevertheless, I can't help wondering whether it is ever necessary or
desirable to ride in the center of a lane exclude the motorist. If
the lane really is narrow, it ought to be possible to block the
motorists effectively while riding much closer to the curb. The much
quoted curbside tire track ought to work.

When you block a motorist it is very necessary for him to recognise
that he is blocked. However, it is very desirable for that motorist
to conclude that he has been blocked because the road (or lane) is
too narrow, rather than conclude that he is being blocked because of
your belligerent obstructionism.

If you ride in the tire track, you leave the motorist hating the
highway department, rather than hating you. That's probably a good
way to arrange things.

And if the lane actually is wide enough to share comfortably,
courtesy requires that you be willing to do so.

Jeremy Parker