Cycling Training · Public discussion

Scientific Proof?

Started by Shibumi · · Last activity · 78 posts · 9,323 views

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
Cycling Training
Published
8 July 2003
Last activity
6 September 2003
Original author
Shibumi
Posts
78
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
9,323
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 21–40 of 78
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by 2LAP
    Crowley, are you joking? Do you zig zag down the road as you descretly use your arms to pull and push? If this technique is so good are going to teach some up and coming stars; when will they be on the world scene?

    There is no zig zagging, you would not even know the upper body
    was being used if you were looking on. You would soon notice
    if you were on my wheel when we came to a slight climb on the
    road how extra power could be turned on with so little effort.
    Your final reply is typical of the response from all who believe
    that they are experts in pedaling. All they are expert in, is the
    technique into which they were brainwashed when they first
    started competitive riding, the traditional round pedaling or
    natural pedaling style. Round pedaling is to cycling what the
    straddle was in high jumping techniques. Anquetil's style could
    be compared to the Fosbury Flop.
    Don't worry, there is one group who are interested in this
    style, they are the victims of lower back pain which was caused by the recommended round pedaling style, so it is with them
    that I will be starting in the Autumn. These are riders who have
    been forced out of the sport by the pain and for them it is a
    case of, you time trial as Anquetil did or you don't time trial at all.
    I will let them set record times in TT's because at age 62 I do not
    want to push my luck and end up like Dr. Burke. (R.I.P.)

  2. Originally posted by n crowley
    There is no zig zagging, you would not even know the upper body
    was being used if you were looking on. You would soon notice
    if you were on my wheel when we came to a slight climb on the
    road how extra power could be turned on with so little effort.

    Quoted message said:

    If you are using your upper body so activley, it will have a metabolic cost that is likely to decrease exercise economy. Decreases in exercise economy result in reduced performance, you are unlikely to find extra power. Where does it come from?

    Your final reply is typical of the response from all who believe
    that they are experts in pedaling.

    Quoted message said:

    I am not an expert at anything, in fact the more I learn the less of an expert I become. The reason I question you and provide reason is that I am trying to learn. Please give me the opportunity to learn by answering my questions (I'll post them at the end of this reply). This is a discussion forum, if you don't want discussion questions simply don't post.

    All they are expert in, is the technique into which they were brainwashed when they first started competitive riding, the traditional round pedaling or natural pedaling style.

    Quoted message said:

    But you have not provided an alternative, I use my upper body when I pedal normaly too! All you have said is that you have discovered a new technique, that you can't see it happening (i.e. it looks like circular pedaling) and it can't be copied. What is this new technique and how do you do it?

    Round pedaling is to cycling what the straddle was in high jumping techniques. Anquetil's style could be compared to the Fosbury Flop.

    Quoted message said:

    Is your technique that radicaly different?

    Don't worry, there is one group who are interested in this
    style, they are the victims of lower back pain which was caused by the recommended round pedaling style, so it is with them
    that I will be starting in the Autumn.

    Quoted message said:

    I am interested too, its just that you arn't telling us much or giving us much to go on. Good luck with the guys with back pain, I hope they can return to cycling. Just make sure you are properly insured and that your clients get health checks before you start working with them.

    These are riders who have been forced out of the sport by the pain and for them it is a case of, you time trial as Anquetil did or you don't time trial at all.

    Quoted message said:

    I still don't get what he did differently?

    I will let them set record times in TT's because at age 62 I do not
    want to push my luck and end up like Dr. Burke. (R.I.P.)

    Quoted message said:

    I have never asked for you to prove yourself with times, just explain yourself fully.

  3. Here are my question's, I have picked them out of the other posts I have made. They may help me understand why your technique is so different and so good. I want to learn and you want to discuss (I've seen your posts on other sites), so it would be good if you could answer them one by one. I'm all up for new ideas if you can present a good case. Thanks.

    1. I'm sure that most of the upper body contactions during normal cycling are isometric anyway! When cycling up hill or cycling quickly these contractions tend to be more forcefull, is that what you are talking about?

    2. You metioned biomechanics earlier, can you explain how either (either a or b would be required to make your bike go faster):
    (a) Contraction of the muscles in your upper body (without movement) allows you to accelerate your centre of mass.
    (b) Contraction of the muscles in your upper body allow you to exert a greater force on the pedals, when all forces that could be exerted by the upper body are removed by the saddle.

    3. How does the pedaling technique vary from the usual in (a) upper body and (b) lower body movements?

    4. How does your technique reduce lower back pain when there is likely to be greater twisting forces placed on the back and stronger muscle contractions in the back?

    5. Why are you the first to discover that JA did it differently; how come no one else noticed?

    6. What does hand crank riding have to do with this style?

    7. What evidence do you have that your method is more effective than other peoples; there have been better riders than JA?

    8. How do you know that I have been brainwashed and are closed to new ideas; how do you know that your not stubern and won't listen to others.

    9. Why have none of the millions of competitive cyclists over history ever come up with this technique and publicised it?

    10. How are you going to teach people to do it if it is so hard to reproduce?

  4. [QUOTE]Originally posted by 2LAP
    Originally posted by n crowley


    Round pedaling is to cycling what the straddle was in high jumping techniques. Anquetil's style could be compared to the Fosbury Flop.

    Quoted message said:

    Is your technique that radicaly different?









    Yes completely different. Different and stronger power generating
    muscles are used in addition to the calves which play a big part and increase in size. As has been already proved by Wayne lim
    on another forum, it is impossible to explain this without a
    detailed explanation as it is being demonstrated. The best example I can give is that power is generated and applied to the
    pedal in exactly the same way as an indoor tug o'war contestant
    generates that massive leg power and applies it from the sole
    of his shoe to the non slip floor floor mat as he is lying back
    and pulling on that rope.
    In normal pedaling the muscles used are those that are used
    when walking or climbing a stairs and their power is limited
    because as maximum power is applied in a direct downward direction, resistance of the arms cannot be used when riding at
    speed in the saddle. With Anquetil's style, direct downward
    pedal pressure is never used, it is always in the same direction
    as that tug o'war man would direct it and is almost parallel to
    the pulling line of the arms. That important fact is what makes
    the direct combination of arm resistance and hip/thigh power
    possible when riding in the saddle during time trials.

  5. [QUOTE]Originally posted by 2LAP
    Here are my question's, I have picked them out of the other posts I have made. They may help me understand why your technique is so different and so good. I want to learn and you want to discuss (I've seen your posts on other sites), so it would be good if you could answer them one by one. I'm all up for new ideas if you can present a good case. Thanks.

    1. I'm sure that most of the upper body contactions during normal cycling are isometric anyway! When cycling up hill or cycling quickly these contractions tend to be more forcefull, is that what you are talking about?

    2. You metioned biomechanics earlier, can you explain how either (either a or b would be required to make your bike go faster):
    (a) Contraction of the muscles in your upper body (without movement) allows you to accelerate your centre of mass.
    (b) Contraction of the muscles in your upper body allow you to exert a greater force on the pedals, when all forces that could be exerted by the upper body are removed by the saddle.

    3. How does the pedaling technique vary from the usual in (a) upper body and (b) lower body movements?

    4. How does your technique reduce lower back pain when there is likely to be greater twisting forces placed on the back and stronger muscle contractions in the back?

    5. Why are you the first to discover that JA did it differently; how come no one else noticed?

    6. What does hand crank riding have to do with this style?

    7. What evidence do you have that your method is more effective than other peoples; there have been better riders than JA?

    8. How do you know that I have been brainwashed and are closed to new ideas; how do you know that your not stubern and won't listen to others.

    9. Why have none of the millions of competitive cyclists over history ever come up with this technique and publicised it?

    10. How are you going to teach people to do it if it is so hard to
    reproduce?








    Sorry I did not see this list of questions, i will answer these
    another time, it's too late now.

  6. Many of you could have already had a few ILT workouts under your belts by the time it took to read or post on this thread.

    It is so easy and quick to try, give it a go and see for yourself. I don't think Ric will ever try it, but 2LAP I'm reserving a small shred of hope for you. I'm glad you believe in economy. ILT does wonders in that area.

    I think I'm making some progress here. Before ILT was labeled "useless." Now, some are saying it may be beneficial for re-hab (which I have always said). Perhaps in a few months, it will change again and be useful for performance as well!!!

  7. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by J-MAT
    Many of you could have already had a few ILT workouts under your belts by the time it took to read or post on this thread.

    It is so easy and quick to try, give it a go and see for yourself. I don't think Ric will ever try it, but 2LAP I'm reserving a small shred of hope for you. I'm glad you believe in economy. ILT does wonders in that area.

    I think I'm making some progress here. Before ILT was labeled "useless." Now, some are saying it may be beneficial for re-hab (which I have always said). Perhaps in a few months, it will change again and be useful for performance as well!!!

    a while back i said i had used ILT. in fact in my first year of racing, we used to race "one legged' uphills, myself and my friends for fun.

    of course that was a long time ago, and now i don't do it.

    ric

  8. Ric:

    I never thought you tried it. My aplogies. However, I have found that doing ILT on the road is not even close to the effectiveness of doing it on a trainer. I highly recomend against doing it on the road.

  9. Question to ALL:
    Is there any other research on varied pedaling techniques out, some url we might have a read on ?
    AND
    How does varied pedaling techniques effect the bike set up ?
    Sounds very much like we are trying to apply recumbent training to a TT bike ?

  10. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by J-MAT
    Ric:

    I never thought you tried it. My aplogies. However, I have found that doing ILT on the road is not even close to the effectiveness of doing it on a trainer. I highly recomend against doing it on the road.

    my bad, sorry for the bad response, it was however at 2.00am, so you can let me off 😄 !

    i've also done it on the trainer for longisg periods of time

    Ric

  11. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by J-MAT
    Many of you could have already had a few ILT workouts under your belts by the time it took to read or post on this thread.

    It is so easy and quick to try, give it a go and see for yourself. I don't think Ric will ever try it, but 2LAP I'm reserving a small shred of hope for you. I'm glad you believe in economy. ILT does wonders in that area.

    I think I'm making some progress here. Before ILT was labeled "useless." Now, some are saying it may be beneficial for re-hab (which I have always said). Perhaps in a few months, it will change again and be useful for performance as well!!!

    I think this thread has been lost to ILT J-MAT. Cowley is taking about something much more 'special', but I think I'll stop posting on that one soon.

    I would never say any training session is [censored] for everything (except perhaps those 100 mile club runs that people take 14 year olds on in the UK!). I consided doing ILT once to balance out my left and right legs as their musculature is quite different, however in the lab I have found no difference in their force producing capacity so thought that there was no need.

    While the sun is shining in the UK I'm going to stick to LT and VO2 max sessions on the road.

  12. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by 2LAP
    I think this thread has been lost to ILT J-MAT. Cowley is taking about something much more 'special', but I think I'll stop posting on that one soon.

    I would never say any training session is [censored] for everything (except perhaps those 100 mile club runs that people take 14 year olds on in the UK!). I consided doing ILT once to balance out my left and right legs as their musculature is quite different, however in the lab I have found no difference in their force producing capacity so thought that there was no need.

    While the sun is shining in the UK I'm going to stick to LT and VO2 max sessions on the road.

    oh dear me. 100 mile club runs. oh how i remember these, we werem't men if we couldn't ride 100 miles. they were days. Not!

    i hope no one practices this anymore.

    ric

  13. 1. I'm sure that most of the upper body contactions during normal cycling are isometric anyway! When cycling up hill or cycling quickly these contractions tend to be more forcefull, is that what you are talking about?

    Yes, but with normal pedaling it is only attempted pulling on the
    bars, if you tried to use effective pulling, you would only pull
    yourself out of the saddle as you apply that downward pressure.
    That attempted pulling increases the strain on the lower back.

    2. You metioned biomechanics earlier, can you explain how either (either a or b would be required to make your bike go faster):
    (a) Contraction of the muscles in your upper body (without movement) allows you to accelerate your centre of mass.
    (b) Contraction of the muscles in your upper body allow you to exert a greater force on the pedals, when all forces that could be exerted by the upper body are removed by the saddle.

    (b) but I do not understand the last part of this question.
    The pulling and pushing on the bars help to apply greater pedal
    pressure by preventing you from sliding back on the saddle as
    you apply that pedal pressure.

    3. How does the pedaling technique vary from the usual in (a) upper body and (b) lower body movements?

    I covered this in the example that I gave yesterday.

    4. How does your technique reduce lower back pain when there is likely to be greater twisting forces placed on the back and stronger muscle contractions in the back?

    It does not reduce back pain, it completely eliminates it by getting rid of the root cause of this torture. When normal pedaling
    is used all pedaling resistance and most of the upper body support must be supplied by the lower back. This puts it under
    continuous strain which is increased even further by vibration
    from rough surfaces and high pressure tyres. The weaker
    or imperfect backs cannot cope with this strain and the cumulative
    torture begins.
    With J. A. style, all pedaling resistance is supplied by the hips
    and all upper body weigh is supported by the working arms,
    leaving all weak imperfect lower backs feeling completely relaxed
    and free from all pain.
    Because of the direction through which the power is applied
    to the pedals, the workload on the knees and risk of injury in that
    area is also greatly reduced.

    5. Why are you the first to discover that JA did it differently; how come no one else noticed?

    I am not the first. You obviously did not see the video on which
    it is stated that J. A. brought a whole new style to pedaling but
    the source of his power is still a mystery.

    6. What does hand crank riding have to do with this style?

    You are using the same upper body power generating effect
    except with J.A. style this extra power is diverted back to the foot pedals by using the hands in a fixed position on bars instead of
    moving on hand pedals.

    7. What evidence do you have that your method is more effective than other peoples; there have been better riders than JA?

    If J.A. did not have this superior pedaling for time trials, with
    his lifestyle, he would have been little more than an average
    rider. His technique is of no use when serious out of the saddle
    pedaling is called for so he was not a sprinter. He was not
    much of a climber because his technique works best with high
    gears when cruising on reasonably level roads during time trials.
    He was known as the man who could not be dropped but who
    could not drop anybody. This was because he did not have the
    explosive power necessary for a sudden breakaway attempt,
    his style took a longer time to build up the speed but once
    cruising speed was reached he would soon catch any rider who
    had managed to get clear. Anquetil started 9 GP de Nations
    world championship TT's and won all 9.

    8. How do you know that I have been brainwashed and are closed to new ideas; how do you know that your not stubern and won't listen to others.

    Every book on cycling that you buy has a chapter describing the
    one and only way to pedal, when it is perfected they call it
    Souplesse or something like that. Sadly for many riders this
    style of riding is a recipe for persistant lower back pain and
    injury. Except for the idea of Anquetil, there are no new ideas
    where pedaling is concerned. Yes I am stubborn but only when
    I am confident that I am correct and everyone else is wrong.
    I was using aero bars in our IVCA cycling club before they were
    even invented. I made my own and am still using similar bars
    today as they are best suited to Anquetil's style. I won
    a 10 mile tt championship using them but at that time I had
    not discovered Anquetil's technique.

    9. Why have none of the millions of competitive cyclists over history ever come up with this technique and publicised it?

    Because most experts believe that everyone has his own
    unique natural pedaling style and that Anquetil was more
    gifted than all others, some believe that he was some sort of
    genetic miracle, his masseur believed that his extra pedal power
    came from his back because it was so different from the backs of all other riders. I am confident that the reverse was true and it was the beneficial effect of his pedaling on his back that strengthened it, as it can do for victims of cycling's back pain.
    Cycling research is concentrated on equipment and all sort
    of lab experiments and drugs and their masking agents. There is
    no financial gain from discovering a new pedaling style.

    10. How are you going to teach people to do it if it is so hard to reproduce?

    A rider who has been or who is about to be forced out of the
    sport would do anything to be able to ride free of lower back pain.
    The more severe the back pain that a rider suffers, the easier it
    should be for him to acquire Anquetil's linear pedaling style. He
    has nothing to lose and everything to gain. The elimination of
    his pain will be an indicator that he understands and is using the
    correct method and will keep him on the correct track as it is being
    perfected. Trying to get in contact with these riders is in my
    oppinion the most difficult part.

  14. My recent discussions with my orthopaedic surgeon suggest that circular pedalling can do some damage. Straightening at extreme flexion (before 11 o'clock) presents the biomechanical problem of how to transmit leg-straightening force (femoral quadriceps through patella to tibia) through an very wide angle: 90-100 deg, or more if you have long cranks or short legs. There is therefore more patellofemoral joint stress if you start the power stroke earlier.

    I had to stop pulling on the up stroke a couple of years ago because I had chronic knee pain. The pain went away. Pulling up would apply muscle force through ligaments, which is not what they're for.

    I am experimenting with more or less the kind of straight pedalling visualisation you describe, kind of pushing forward, and the results are quite encouraging. I can start the power stroke later (subjectively), I have more power (subjectively) and there is less knee swelling (subjectively). I can live with the bike jumping all over the place if it means I can keep riding.

    http://www.cyclingforums.com/showthread.php?postid=202366#post202366

  15. I am experimenting with more or less the kind of straight pedalling visualisation you describe, kind of pushing forward, and the results are quite encouraging. I can start the power stroke later (subjectively), I have more power (subjectively) and there is less knee swelling (subjectively). I can live with the bike jumping all over the place if it means I can keep riding.

    Because you have succeeded in changing your power application
    direction and find it a help in your problem does not mean you
    understand what I have described. You are missing out on the
    most important aspect of correct linear pedaling, that is in
    how the power is transferred from shoe to pedal. It helps to have
    the ball of foot set in a more forward position on the pedal than
    over the pedal axle and pedals with clips and toe straps are
    needed. Most important of all your shoes should be in a toes
    down direction. There is no jumping about, there is no visible
    movement of the body except for flexing and relaxing of the
    muscles, except of course for the legs and even there you do not
    have the same up/down movement of the knees, it is a much
    smoother high geared style. Instead of the power application
    starting later as in your case, once the initial acceleration is
    complete your main power stroke should start at 11 o'clock and
    end at 5 o'clock, eliminating the dead spot area. It means you
    are doing naturally what Rotor Cranks tries to compensate for
    with a most unbalanced pedaling style and very expensive
    equipment.

  16. Anquetil's linear pedaling style

    Question:

    Is there any change with reduced or increased cadence ?

    With round pedaling the downward (1 to 5) force increases in ratio to other contributions with increased cadence. Some train kick-drag strength so to loose the dead spot at lower cadence.
    And
    Over stressing the hip flexors in the up stroke can create back problems. Excessive strength in the up stroke can also cause knee problems.

    I'm having a problem truly understanding any of the linear pedaling description related in this thread ! I want to understand.
    The only way I can see anyone pushing a pedal from a 11 o'clock position is by leg extension ( kicking it over ) even with the pedal in the arch of your foot. The problem is ( you need to try this to get my point ) the hamstrings of the down leg wants to help the quads of the up leg; to relieve the imbalance in the core ( hips ), for stability.

  17. Thanks for the answers Crowley!

    The question 2 B refers to your saddle removing any vertical forces from your upper body. I'm not sure that if pedalling hard without my hands on my bars that I would slip of the seat backwards though.

  18. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by edd
    Anquetil's linear pedaling style

    Question:

    Is there any change with reduced or increased cadence ?

    With round pedaling the downward (1 to 5) force increases in ratio to other contributions with increased cadence. Some train kick-drag strength so to loose the dead spot at lower cadence.
    And
    Over stressing the hip flexors in the up stroke can create back problems. Excessive strength in the up stroke can also cause knee problems.

    I'm having a problem truly understanding any of the linear pedaling description related in this thread ! I want to understand.
    The only way I can see anyone pushing a pedal from a 11 o'clock position is by leg extension ( kicking it over ) even with the pedal in the arch of your foot. The problem is ( you need to try this to get my point ) the hamstrings of the down leg wants to help the quads of the up leg; to relieve the imbalance in the core ( hips ), for stability.


    This technique works best with high gears especially if you have
    been a back pain victim because the higher the gear the more
    you use your arm resistance and this has a beneficial effect on
    the lower back. Using the lower gears and high cadences or
    spinning when in that leaning forward position can put some strain on the back because your arm resistance is not needed
    and it is this that supports all the upper body weight. It has
    already been proved independently by doctors that the lower
    back is put under most stress if strain is placed on it when one
    is in a seated leaning forward position. As you are pulling with one arm the other arm is doing the pressing on the bar and
    this is where the support of the upper body weight is taking
    place.
    This pedaling style is in the shape of a V, the power application
    line is one line of that V and is at an angle of about 45 degrees,
    as you get to the bottom of the power application, you unweight
    the pedal while at the same time drawing back the foot, from
    about 9 o'clock your muscles are preparing for instant take over
    of power application at 11 o'clock. From the start of this stroke
    at 11 to the end at 5 o'clock the same muscles are used and in
    the same identical way, giving very effective power application
    right through the dead spot area. There is no kicking forward at
    the top or pulling up on the pedal after the bottom of the stroke.
    There are some good examples of this pedaling on Anquetil's video but it does not give much away. If it did all the other
    cyclists would have copied it. This technique is 99 per cent
    mental as the muscles are working in a different way from the
    way they appear to an onlooker. The brain is sending the signals
    to the muscles and no rider during all his racing years
    succeeded in discovering what these signals were. I forgot
    to mention that the drawing back at the bottom of the stroke
    represents the other line of that V.
    When I was describing this technique on another forum, a rider
    stated that the only way he could apply steady power from 11
    o'clock was by lying on his back so it must appear very difficult
    to understand. Like swallowing it is such a simple natural action
    but try explaining that to someone who did not know how to do it.
    That V is how your brain sees it and directs the power in that
    line, drawing back at the bottom, the rotating or revolving pedals
    and cranks convert it into what appears as a round pedaling
    style and this in Anquetil's day confused the experts, so they
    gave up hope of ever discovering the secret of his style and his
    mysterious extra pedal power in time trials.
    You have to see this being done in slow motion as it is being
    described, I could waste a year trying to get it across to you
    but you would not have the correct understanding. As I stated
    earlier, it should be much easier for the worst lower back victims
    to acquire this style than for a fully fit pain free rider.

  19. Thank you for your patience, and your continuing explanation.

    I’m not a fully fit pain free rider.

  20. I read about PowerCranks on cyclingnews.com. Has anyone tried them?

    I think PowerCranks is the best device to prove whether ILT works or not. It's a pair of cranks that are independant on each other. Riding with PC is virtually the same as doing ILT for both legs all the time. If PC can improve cycling performance then ILT is beneficial.

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.