Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed

John Hanson said:

I'm thinking this is going to be very painful for her...dying of
starvation. David?

That would imply that she could still consciously perceive pain. Her
forebrain cortex is all but gone, including cortex of the frontal lobes
and the primary somatosensory cortex. There's nothing left really but
the occipital lobes, a brain stem, and some diencephalon. If any of the
CTs have actually been released (no links to photoshoped documents
please) I'd really like to see them.

Over hundreds of hours the parents managed to gleen four minutes of
footage where some reflex response seemed to coincide with what they
were doing, just like if you keep doing a rain dance when there are
clouds in the sky, eventually it'll rain. I have sympathy for the
parents, but I also have sympathy for Ms Schiavo, and I think it's time
to let the body pass on. If there was any chance my opinion may be
different, but there's nothing left of her in that shell.

Everyone is trying to say that one side of this debate is right and the
other side is wrong or evil. Those involved claim to be concerned about
Terry, but the vast majority either like getting media attention or
hearing themselves talk. The family is in a horrible circumstance, and
however this turns out, Terry is never coming back. I wish that people
would spend a little more time trying to imagine themselves in the
positions of the people involved than spouting off about political or
religious [censored].

Ari

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

John Hanson said:

I'm thinking this is going to be very painful for her...dying of
starvation. David?

First, let me say that I think it is DISGUSTING that any human being
would be starved to death. The hypocrisy overwhelms! We don't allow
DOGS to be starved to death. If the State, the Courts, whoever, decides
somebody should die, give her an overdose of pentobarbital and put her
out of her "misery".

That said, given her persistent vegetative state (and that is what it
is, been there, done that), no, it won't be painful. Just immoral as
hell!

David

John Hanson said:

I'm thinking this is going to be very painful for her...dying of
starvation. David?

I'm thinking if she really was a bulimic (as she is alleged to have
been) and if it really was complications from said bulimia that put her
into the state she's in now, that death by starvation is just about
right.

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 14:04:39 +0800, spodosaurus
<spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

John Hanson said:

I'm thinking this is going to be very painful for her...dying of
starvation. David?

That would imply that she could still consciously perceive pain. Her
forebrain cortex is all but gone, including cortex of the frontal lobes
and the primary somatosensory cortex. There's nothing left really but
the occipital lobes, a brain stem, and some diencephalon. If any of the
CTs have actually been released (no links to photoshoped documents
please) I'd really like to see them.

So what part of the brain feels pain? And do you really need to
consciously perceive pain to be "miserable".

Quoted message said:

Over hundreds of hours the parents managed to gleen four minutes of
footage where some reflex response seemed to coincide with what they
were doing, just like if you keep doing a rain dance when there are
clouds in the sky, eventually it'll rain. I have sympathy for the
parents, but I also have sympathy for Ms Schiavo, and I think it's time
to let the body pass on. If there was any chance my opinion may be
different, but there's nothing left of her in that shell.

I would think that starvation might also trigger something in a
person. Our bodies do fight to stay alive.

Quoted message said:

Everyone is trying to say that one side of this debate is right and the
other side is wrong or evil. Those involved claim to be concerned about
Terry, but the vast majority either like getting media attention or
hearing themselves talk. The family is in a horrible circumstance, and
however this turns out, Terry is never coming back. I wish that people
would spend a little more time trying to imagine themselves in the
positions of the people involved than spouting off about political or
religious [censored].

Ari

On 18 Mar 2005 22:06:15 -0800, "David Cohen" <[email hidden]>
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

John Hanson said:

I'm thinking this is going to be very painful for her...dying of
starvation. David?

First, let me say that I think it is DISGUSTING that any human being
would be starved to death. The hypocrisy overwhelms! We don't allow
DOGS to be starved to death. If the State, the Courts, whoever, decides
somebody should die, give her an overdose of pentobarbital and put her
out of her "misery".

I agree.

Quoted message said:

That said, given her persistent vegetative state (and that is what it
is, been there, done that), no, it won't be painful. Just immoral as
hell!

Hmm, okay. You know way more about this than I do.

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:19:45 GMT, [email hidden] (The Queen of
Cans and Jars) wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

John Hanson said:

I'm thinking this is going to be very painful for her...dying of
starvation. David?

I'm thinking if she really was a bulimic (as she is alleged to have
been) and if it really was complications from said bulimia that put her
into the state she's in now, that death by starvation is just about
right.

I guess I don't know what caused he to be in her current state. So
what's the whole story?

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 14:04:39 +0800, spodosaurus

spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com said:

That would imply that she could still consciously perceive pain.

It was reported that she showed reaction to pain when they inserted
the feeding tube. If they're gonna put her down they oughtta just
shoot her, not starve her to death.

"spodosaurus" <spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

John Hanson said:

I'm thinking this is going to be very painful for her...dying of
starvation. David?

That would imply that she could still consciously perceive pain. Her
forebrain cortex is all but gone, including cortex of the frontal lobes
and the primary somatosensory cortex. There's nothing left really but
the occipital lobes, a brain stem, and some diencephalon. If any of the
CTs have actually been released (no links to photoshoped documents
please) I'd really like to see them.

Over hundreds of hours the parents managed to gleen four minutes of
footage where some reflex response seemed to coincide with what they
were doing, just like if you keep doing a rain dance when there are
clouds in the sky, eventually it'll rain. I have sympathy for the
parents, but I also have sympathy for Ms Schiavo, and I think it's time
to let the body pass on. If there was any chance my opinion may be
different, but there's nothing left of her in that shell.

Everyone is trying to say that one side of this debate is right and the
other side is wrong or evil. Those involved claim to be concerned about
Terry, but the vast majority either like getting media attention or
hearing themselves talk. The family is in a horrible circumstance, and
however this turns out, Terry is never coming back. I wish that people
would spend a little more time trying to imagine themselves in the
positions of the people involved than spouting off about political or
religious [censored].

Ari

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

Thanks Ari. I'm really against the tube removal, but your post gives me
some comfort.

Lester

"David Cohen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

John Hanson said:

I'm thinking this is going to be very painful for her...dying of
starvation. David?

First, let me say that I think it is DISGUSTING that any human being
would be starved to death. The hypocrisy overwhelms! We don't allow
DOGS to be starved to death. If the State, the Courts, whoever, decides
somebody should die, give her an overdose of pentobarbital and put her
out of her "misery".

That said, given her persistent vegetative state (and that is what it
is, been there, done that), no, it won't be painful. Just immoral as
hell!

David

Perfectly said as usual David. I bet the SCOTUS would consider this cruel
and unusual if it were an execution!

Lester

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:19:45 GMT, [email hidden] (The Queen of

Cans and Jars) said:

John Hanson said:

I'm thinking this is going to be very painful for her...dying of
starvation. David?

I'm thinking if she really was a bulimic (as she is alleged to have
been) and if it really was complications from said bulimia that put her
into the state she's in now, that death by starvation is just about
right.

So you think she deserves to be punished Queenie? mmmm..... that
speaks volumes for you my dear!!

Do have an indifferent weekend you unpleasant creature!! ;o(

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 14:04:39 +0800, spodosaurus

spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com said:

John Hanson said:

I'm thinking this is going to be very painful for her...dying of
starvation. David?

That would imply that she could still consciously perceive pain. Her
forebrain cortex is all but gone, including cortex of the frontal lobes
and the primary somatosensory cortex. There's nothing left really but
the occipital lobes, a brain stem, and some diencephalon. If any of the
CTs have actually been released (no links to photoshoped documents
please) I'd really like to see them.

Over hundreds of hours the parents managed to gleen four minutes of
footage where some reflex response seemed to coincide with what they
were doing, just like if you keep doing a rain dance when there are
clouds in the sky, eventually it'll rain. I have sympathy for the
parents, but I also have sympathy for Ms Schiavo, and I think it's time
to let the body pass on. If there was any chance my opinion may be
different, but there's nothing left of her in that shell.

Everyone is trying to say that one side of this debate is right and the
other side is wrong or evil. Those involved claim to be concerned about
Terry, but the vast majority either like getting media attention or
hearing themselves talk. The family is in a horrible circumstance, and
however this turns out, Terry is never coming back. I wish that people
would spend a little more time trying to imagine themselves in the
positions of the people involved than spouting off about political or
religious [censored].

Good post Ari, thank you for your concise yet easy to understand
explanation.

Have a great weekend - you know I will!! ;o)

"John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm thinking this is going to be very painful for her...dying of
starvation. David?

It would be better to bring in Kevorkian...

--
The Whip Company
"We Don't Make Whips... We Whip Ass!"
http://www.cafepress.com/dwacon/537651

On 18 Mar 2005 22:06:15 -0800, "David Cohen" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

John Hanson said:

I'm thinking this is going to be very painful for her...dying of
starvation. David?

First, let me say that I think it is DISGUSTING that any human being
would be starved to death. The hypocrisy overwhelms! We don't allow
DOGS to be starved to death. If the State, the Courts, whoever, decides
somebody should die, give her an overdose of pentobarbital and put her
out of her "misery".

That said, given her persistent vegetative state (and that is what it
is, been there, done that), no, it won't be painful. Just immoral as
hell!

David

Maybe the husband shuld buy a couple of tickets to The Netherlands.

I agree with this. My mother-in-law is dying right now of aplastic
anemia. She has been kept alive for 4 years now by weekly transfusions
while she has slowly deteriorated. She has been in a hospice for the
past month and they have stopped treatments likening them to pouring
water into a bucket with no bottom.
I know that the platelets and whole blood lasted her about a week and
they could keep her going indefinitely until she suffered a major
bleed out or one of her major organs quit.
It's difficult to watch someone waste away and as my wife said on the
way home last night..."We wouldn't make a dog suffer like that. Why do
we do it to people?"
In my m-i-l's case, it is painful and she is on stronger and stronger
pain killers while she sleeps more and more.
--
Bob Mann

Before you critisize someone,
you should walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, when you critisize them,
you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 04:11:39 -0500, "dwacon" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm thinking this is going to be very painful for her...dying of
starvation. David?

It would be better to bring in Kevorkian...

Yes it would. My uncle was 'allowed to die' in this manner just a
couple of weeks ago. Basically brain-dead, his body was kept alive
for nearly a month for what now seems to have been no good reason
other than to prolong the suffering of the family and to give false
hope. Though I would have preferred a 'shot' of something as opposed
to the starvation method, I think it's a better thing to have finally
let nature take it's course. Oh, and his condition was self-imposed
also. However it was cigarettes and poor eating habits that did him
in. They fried everything they ate.
~GJ~

Bob Mann said:

On 18 Mar 2005 22:06:15 -0800, "David Cohen" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

John Hanson said:

I'm thinking this is going to be very painful for her...dying of
starvation. David?

First, let me say that I think it is DISGUSTING that any human being
would be starved to death. The hypocrisy overwhelms! We don't allow
DOGS to be starved to death. If the State, the Courts, whoever, decides
somebody should die, give her an overdose of pentobarbital and put her
out of her "misery".

That said, given her persistent vegetative state (and that is what it
is, been there, done that), no, it won't be painful. Just immoral as
hell!

David

Maybe the husband shuld buy a couple of tickets to The Netherlands.

I agree with this. My mother-in-law is dying right now of aplastic
anemia. She has been kept alive for 4 years now by weekly transfusions
while she has slowly deteriorated. She has been in a hospice for the
past month and they have stopped treatments likening them to pouring
water into a bucket with no bottom.

I have aplastic anaemia. Who is her doctor? Has she consulted Dr Neil
Young at NIH? What is her age? Have they positively rules out
myelodysplastic syndrome.

Quoted message said:

I know that the platelets and whole blood lasted her about a week and
they could keep her going indefinitely until she suffered a major
bleed out or one of her major organs quit.

Why whole blood? Repeated transfusions with whole blood can rsult in
some unpleasant immune mediated reactions. What are her hemoglobin,
platelet, and white cell counts (with lymphocyte/neutrophil differential)?

Quoted message said:

It's difficult to watch someone waste away and as my wife said on the
way home last night..."We wouldn't make a dog suffer like that. Why do
we do it to people?"

I'd rather "suffer" than be dead. Why is she suffering? What is her
treatment program besides red cell transfusions? Has she been given ATG
or ALG?

Quoted message said:

In my m-i-l's case, it is painful and she is on stronger and stronger
pain killers while she sleeps more and more.

Please email me or we can talk here. Aplastic anaemia doesn't have to be
fatal, and 80% of patients go into remission after one or two jolts with
ATG/ALG. I have a particularly nasty combination of factors that will
probably result in my demise (odds of a transplant success are not so
good for me, and my counts continue to slowly fall). It also doesn't
have to be painful, unless she's not been given Neupogen to keep her
white cell counts up, not been given prophylactic antifungal and
antivirals, and she's getting infections as a result.

Ari

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Hanson said:

I'm thinking this is going to be very painful for her...dying of
starvation.

The real shame of it is she has to be starved to death vs giving her a
lethal dose of morphine. F-ing right to life [censored] heads.

Quoted message said:

David?

--
Will Brink @ http://www.brinkzone.com/

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bob Mann said:

On 18 Mar 2005 22:06:15 -0800, "David Cohen" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

John Hanson said:

I'm thinking this is going to be very painful for her...dying of
starvation. David?

First, let me say that I think it is DISGUSTING that any human being
would be starved to death. The hypocrisy overwhelms! We don't allow
DOGS to be starved to death. If the State, the Courts, whoever, decides
somebody should die, give her an overdose of pentobarbital and put her
out of her "misery".

That said, given her persistent vegetative state (and that is what it
is, been there, done that), no, it won't be painful. Just immoral as
hell!

David

Maybe the husband shuld buy a couple of tickets to The Netherlands.

I agree with this. My mother-in-law is dying right now of aplastic
anemia. She has been kept alive for 4 years now by weekly transfusions
while she has slowly deteriorated. She has been in a hospice for the
past month and they have stopped treatments likening them to pouring
water into a bucket with no bottom.
I know that the platelets and whole blood lasted her about a week and
they could keep her going indefinitely until she suffered a major
bleed out or one of her major organs quit.
It's difficult to watch someone waste away and as my wife said on the
way home last night..."We wouldn't make a dog suffer like that. Why do
we do it to people?"
In my m-i-l's case, it is painful and she is on stronger and stronger
pain killers while she sleeps more and more.

This may be of some use:

http://www.hemlock.org/home.jsp

--
Will Brink @ http://www.brinkzone.com/

Usenet Posting said:

I agree with David that if it is decided that she will die then some
form of painless method is called for. This "unhook her and let
nature take its course" [censored] is just that, [censored].

I agree. A shot to end things calmly rather than making her family wait
while her body slowly shuts down is a better way to deal with these
matters for all concerned.

Ari

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

"John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm thinking this is going to be very painful for her...dying of
starvation. David?

That poor woman. I feel for her and her husband, and her parents. It's just
a shame that modern medicine can prolong someone in such a state but cannot
heal them.