scared to ride in town

"determined" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4mzCa.1100667$S_4.1112447@rwcrnsc53...

Quoted message said:

Ok, I have a mountain bike... But I'd like to start riding to work, for health reasons and
environmental reasons. I've never ridden in town, and

I

Quoted message said:

live in Portland, OR. I'm very intimidated by cars, heavy traffic, maneuvering intersections, etc.
I only have a 5 mile ride one way, which

is

Quoted message said:

perfect IMO, and I just haven't had the courage to try this ride for fear

of

Quoted message said:

getting run over by a car!

What's the best way to break into riding in a city?

determined

No good best approach - just a mindset. You have as much right as the cars to be there, if not more,
so don't let them push you around. If possible, though, try to stay off main roads, or any road with
bad pavement or narrow shoulders. Then, ride on the white line, or even a little bit on the road
side of it. That way people will HAVE to move to get by you, which means they'll notice you. If
you're on the shoulder, people are a lot more likely to buzz by really close. When you get into
traffic, just be careful if you're going to weave through. If you have to make a left turn, get into
the middle of the right lane first, then move to the side of the left lane or even the middle of the
left lane. When you're at a stop sign, it sometimes makes sense to stop in the middle of the lane -
people won't try to blow around you in the intersection then. Obey the traffic laws, but don't be
afraid to be agressive out there. They won't notice you unless you make yourself noticed!

red blinky light in the back and maybe even a green or other colored blinky in the front aren't bad
ideas if you might be out in less than ideal visibility situations (dark, sunrise, sunset, rain).

Jon Bond

On Mon, 02 Jun 2003 03:18:24 GMT, "determined" <[email hidden]> wrote:

|Ok, I have a mountain bike... But I'd like to start riding to work, for |health reasons and
environmental reasons. I've never ridden in town, and I |live in Portland, OR. I'm very
intimidated by cars, heavy traffic, |maneuvering intersections, etc. I only have a 5 mile ride one
way, which is |perfect IMO, and I just haven't had the courage to try this ride for fear of
|getting run over by a car!
|
|What's the best way to break into riding in a city?

Lose your panties and replace them with boxers.

Quoted message said:

What's the best way to break into riding in a city?

Well, Portland is supposed to be a good biking city (according to some roadie rag). You've probably
noticed there are road riders all over the place, so drivers are at least somewhat used to bikers.

Try to find a route with bike lanes (another nice feature of PDX is lots of bike lanes). I prefer to
avoid busy intersections also; it seems like intersections is where a lot of riders get hit. If you
look around awhile, you may even be able to find routes through parks and such.

As much as some of these guys on this NG like to sound tough, it certainly can be dangerous. I know
a lot of guys who've been hit, several hospitalized, one who was in a coma for two days. I just
found out today that another guy I know (who crashed bad up on Skyline two years ago when a dog ran
out in front of him) has now lost most of the feeling on his left side, and the doctors don't know
if it'll get better.

--
-BB- To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail address, at least)

"determined" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4mzCa.1100667$S_4.1112447@rwcrnsc53...

Quoted message said:

Ok, I have a mountain bike... But I'd like to start riding to work, for health reasons and
environmental reasons. I've never ridden in town, and

I

Quoted message said:

live in Portland, OR. I'm very intimidated by cars, heavy traffic, maneuvering intersections, etc.
I only have a 5 mile ride one way, which

is

Quoted message said:

perfect IMO, and I just haven't had the courage to try this ride for fear

of

Quoted message said:

getting run over by a car!

What's the best way to break into riding in a city?

determined

Start small. Subdivisions, neighborhood streets..anything low key.

Follow the rules, anticipate cagers foolish actions, be predictable.

Assume that the car coming out of the driveway WILL pull out in front of you.

Move on to slighty busier streets as you feel more comfortable.

Pete They don't want to hit you any more than you want them to, if only to avoid the scratched paint
and the paperwork...

determined said...

Quoted message said:

Ok, I have a mountain bike... But I'd like to start riding to work, for health reasons and
environmental reasons. I've never ridden in town, and I live in Portland, OR. I'm very intimidated
by cars, heavy traffic, maneuvering intersections, etc. I only have a 5 mile ride one way, which
is perfect IMO, and I just haven't had the courage to try this ride for fear of getting run over
by a car!

What's the best way to break into riding in a city?

I do a LOT of city riding on my mountain bike. In some ways I find it to be a lot like driving a car
in the city. You have to be aware of what the cars around you are doing and ride defensively. Cars
won't always give you the right of way, no matter how obvious it is that you have it. You have to be
aware of the fact that it is you that will be injured in the resulting accident, not the car, and
act accordingly. In other words, cars are much bigger than you and can do what they want. You must
get used to it.

You need to find routes that are bicycle friendly. If there are bike lanes, that is great, but those
are few and far between in this neck of the woods. Residential side roads aren't necessarily better
than main arteries. Side roads can have many stops that not only slow you down, but many drivers
blow through the stop signs in out of the way places without looking. A main artery may be much
wider with fewer stops and stop lights instead of stop signs, which brings order to intersections. A
two-lane highway with a wide, paved shoulder may be an excellent bike route. Sidewalks are fair game
for bicycles as well. They usually are rougher than streets, but there aren't any cars on them. Most
often if I am at an intersection, I will become a pedestrian and get on the sidewalk if one is
available. Some roads are simply awful for bicycles. For example, a five lane commercial strip with
a curb and no sidewalk would be about as bad as it gets. Cloverleaf intersections at entry/exit
points for limited access highways are extremely bicycle unfriendly. Avoid at all costs. Take full
advantage of parks and greenways. Most cities have extensive park systems around lakes and rivers.
You may be able to traverse most of the city just by staying in the parks. College campuses are
great stomping grounds for bikes. Ride through them at will. Nobody will look twice at you.
Abandoned railroad tracks can become great urban single track for bicycles. There are lots of those
around here.

"determined" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4mzCa.1100667$S_4.1112447@rwcrnsc53...

Quoted message said:

Ok, I have a mountain bike... But I'd like to start riding to work, for health reasons and
environmental reasons. I've never ridden in town, and

I

Quoted message said:

live in Portland, OR. I'm very intimidated by cars, heavy traffic, maneuvering intersections, etc.
I only have a 5 mile ride one way, which

is

Quoted message said:

perfect IMO, and I just haven't had the courage to try this ride for fear

of

Quoted message said:

getting run over by a car!

What's the best way to break into riding in a city?

determined

Always ride a few feet out form the curb, that way you will have space to swerve if the car gets too
close. Over time you will develope a sense of how close the vehicle is going to be when it passes
you and you can move accordingly. Never try to enforce your position on a vehicle - you will lose!!
If the vehicle responds correctly you will be ok, if he doesnt then you will be the one that will
need to move. Always move out slightly when crossing junctions, vehicles will be less likely to try
to race round you if they have to move into the coming traffic to go round you. And get some
mudgaurds!! You get a "different" kind fo muck splashing up from roadds than you do from trails.

Mark

Pete said:

"determined" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:4mzCa.1100667$S_4.1112447@rwcrnsc53...

Quoted message said:

Ok, I have a mountain bike... But I'd like to start riding to work, for health reasons and
environmental reasons. I've never ridden in town, and

I

Quoted message said:

live in Portland, OR. I'm very intimidated by cars, heavy traffic, maneuvering intersections, etc.
I only have a 5 mile ride one way, which

is

Quoted message said:

perfect IMO, and I just haven't had the courage to try this ride for fear

of

Quoted message said:

getting run over by a car!

What's the best way to break into riding in a city?

determined

Start small. Subdivisions, neighborhood streets..anything low key.

Follow the rules, anticipate cagers foolish actions, be predictable.

Assume that the car coming out of the driveway WILL pull out in front of you.

Move on to slighty busier streets as you feel more comfortable.

Pete They don't want to hit you any more than you want them to, if only to avoid the scratched
paint and the paperwork...

All that AND, at intersections, even if it's your turn at a 4-way stop sign, even if you've
got the green light, look for eye contact from drivers before you proceed. A driver who is
studiously avoiding looking at you either
A) really doesn't know you're there, or
B) knows you're there, but is planning to ignore your right-of-way because "you shouldn't be playing
in traffic anyways, when people gotta get to work, goddamnit". (This is a middle-aged guy thing,
IME. If a young guy is going to do something rude, it's usually more overt and noisier.)

So, watch the eyes. If you have any doubts, wait. Sometimes if you're waiting at a light,
you can force an acknowledgement by sliding your shades down your nose so there's no doubt
of what you're looking at and staring directly and pointedly at the "oblivious" driver. Just
last week I had a guy try really hard to pretend he didn't see me, until the woman in the
seat next to him twigged to the game and tugged on his sleeve and literally pointed me out,
much to his obvious irritation.

Kathleen

Kathleen said:

Pete said:

"determined" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:4mzCa.1100667$S_4.1112447@rwcrnsc53...

Quoted message said:

Ok, I have a mountain bike... But I'd like to start riding to work, for health reasons and
environmental reasons. I've never ridden in town, and

I

Quoted message said:

live in Portland, OR. I'm very intimidated by cars, heavy traffic, maneuvering intersections,
etc. I only have a 5 mile ride one way, which

is

Quoted message said:

perfect IMO, and I just haven't had the courage to try this ride for fear

of

Quoted message said:

getting run over by a car!

What's the best way to break into riding in a city?

determined

Start small. Subdivisions, neighborhood streets..anything low key.

Follow the rules, anticipate cagers foolish actions, be predictable.

Assume that the car coming out of the driveway WILL pull out in front of you.

Move on to slighty busier streets as you feel more comfortable.

Pete They don't want to hit you any more than you want them to, if only to avoid the scratched
paint and the paperwork...

All that AND, at intersections, even if it's your turn at a 4-way stop sign, even if you've
got the green light, look for eye contact from drivers before you proceed. A driver who is
studiously avoiding looking at you either
A) really doesn't know you're there, or
B) knows you're there, but is planning to ignore your right-of-way because "you shouldn't be
playing in traffic anyways, when people gotta get to work, goddamnit". (This is a middle-aged
guy thing, IME. If a young guy is going to do something rude, it's usually more overt and
noisier.)

So, watch the eyes. If you have any doubts, wait. Sometimes if you're waiting at a light, you
can force an acknowledgement by sliding your shades down your nose so there's no doubt of what
you're looking at and staring directly and pointedly at the "oblivious" driver. Just last week
I had a guy try really hard to pretend he didn't see me, until the woman in the seat next to
him twigged to the game and tugged on his sleeve and literally pointed me out, much to his
obvious irritation.

Kathleen

I sometimes do the opposite. If it's my turn and I don't make eye contact they know that I don't
care... (doesn't mean that I won't yield if I need to, just that I'll make it difficult for them).

A couple of other things.

Get a rear-view mirror and use it! I have a little one on my helmet. took a while to get used to
(scanning the field with that small circle, and vertigo if I stare into it too long/much), but I
even like it on trails because then I know when I'm holding someome up (or they're catching me 🙂).

I've noticed the same thing as others: if you leave room for cars to get by, but not easily, they'll
nearly side-swipe you to pass. If I can, I leave lots of room, otherwise, I make them go around me.
Seems to have to do with being able to squeeze past vs. having to go into the other lane to get
around you.

Also, if I notice someone not passing me, I get out of their way ASAP -- if they're respectful of my
space (or afraid to pass me), I do my best to help 'em out 🙂.

When I need to, I act like a car. I get into turn lanes and use them. I get into the traffic lane to
make a left even if there isn't a turn lane (sometimes even on high speed roads 🙂). I move out into
traffic if I need to go around something -- starting well before the obstacle -- I also signal
(point) to show what I'm about to do!

The point about looking for less traveled back ways is a really good one!

City drivers are more agressive than country drivers. Delivery and truck drivers are more agressive
than cars (they're in a hurry)! Dump truck drivers are the worst!

Drivers coming home from work are comotose / super agressive. I try to avoid this traffic.

Teens are risk takers. They'll come close to you even if they don't need to. IMO, it's just lack of
age-based experience combined with normal limits testing.

David

In article <4mzCa.1100667$S_4.1112447@rwcrnsc53>,

determined said:

Ok, I have a mountain bike... But I'd like to start riding to work, for health reasons and
environmental reasons. I've never ridden in town, and I live in Portland, OR. I'm very intimidated
by cars, heavy traffic, maneuvering intersections, etc. I only have a 5 mile ride one way, which
is perfect IMO, and I just haven't had the courage to try this ride for fear of getting run over
by a car!

What's the best way to break into riding in a city?

It's like doing that drop you have never done before: you don't stand there looking at the landing
too long, you just roll in and go for it.

To make things easier on yourself, start by practicing road riding on less busy streets. If there's
a quieter route to your work, maybe parallel streets, use that for a few days.

Finally, your route is short enough to just ride it, but you and your knobby tires will be happier
if you buy some slicks for the trip. This will make your bike much faster, and not wear your tires.
The Cadillac way to go is to buy a second set of rims, but if you don't switch from dirt to road too
often, you can just use one set of rims and swap tires.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousineOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

determined said:

Ok, I have a mountain bike... But I'd like to start riding to work, for health reasons and
environmental reasons. I've never ridden in town, and I live in Portland, OR. I'm very intimidated
by cars, heavy traffic, maneuvering intersections, etc. I only have a 5 mile ride one way, which
is perfect IMO, and I just haven't had the courage to try this ride for fear of getting run over
by a car!

What's the best way to break into riding in a city?

determined

That's the right attitude to start.

I've been sharing the road with cars for almost three decades now, and have never been injured
seriously. Much of that has been in Utah, where drivers are known for their cluelessness. Other
parts of the country are dangerous because people are aggressive. Same difference to a biker. I've
hit maybe three cars in my life (parked or stopped - my bad), but have NEVER been hit. So you see,
it can be done safely.

Drivers don't want to hit you no matter how aggressive they act, or whether they realize it. Their
insurance and court costs could ruin them. That doesn't matter IF you get mangled, but it's a very
important factor to keep in mind. I understand there are a lot of bikes on the roads around
Portland, so drivers there should be used to them. But it only takes one... If you learn how to act
like a good bike rider, you'll be okay.

Recon your routes to work on weekends when the traffic is much quieter.

Look for parallel routes to fast main drags.

Act like slow-moving motor vehicles you've seen like mail trucks or tractors. They take their share
of the road but keep as far out of the way as they *reasonably* can. That's your MO on a bike.

For narrow, fast streets, avoid them if at all possible. If not possible, ride fast until you get
to a more quiet or wider street. Again, do the slow-moving motor vehicle thing. Take the space you
need to ride safely and comfortably, don't hide in the gutter, and *make* drivers see you and move
around you.

Speed doesn't kill as much as relative speed does. The faster you are able to ride, the more like a
car you can act. If you're very slow, become a pedestrian at intersections. If you're fast, cross
over to the turn lanes and ride through them just as you would in a car.

Keep your head on a swivel especially in parking lots. Be hyper-alert in any unfamiliar
neighborhood. Once you learn its rhythms, you'll know where potential threats come from.

I've never used a rear-view mirror, relying on my hearing to tell me if there's a car behind me,
possibly with an impatient driver. But it really doesn't matter, since I'm always as far to the
right as I can safely and comfortably be. If I ain't fast enough for them, they'll wait. Getting
passed within 3 feet (it's closer than you'd think) is usually cause for me to take MORE road.

Paradoxically, downtown and congested areas are often quite safe, because whether in a car or on a
bike, everyone needs to stay alert to stay out of trouble. It's just an acquired skill to ride
through them on a bike.

Follow the advice given by others here. It'll take you a while to find the right balance between
assertiveness and discretion. Start off a little timid.

--
--
Lynn Wallace xmission.com~lawallOpen ↗ "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

"determined" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<4mzCa.1100667$S_4.1112447@rwcrnsc53>...

Quoted message said:

Ok, I have a mountain bike... But I'd like to start riding to work, for health reasons and
environmental reasons. I've never ridden in town, and I live in Portland, OR. I'm very intimidated
by cars, heavy traffic, maneuvering intersections, etc. I only have a 5 mile ride one way, which
is perfect IMO, and I just haven't had the courage to try this ride for fear of getting run over
by a car!

What's the best way to break into riding in a city?

determined

Obey the rules of the road ( same as driving a car ) . Be aware that YOU and your bicycle are much
smaller than a motor vehicle so you won't be spotted right away by the average driver . Wear a
helmit . Wear reflective clothing and bright colors to make yourself as visible as possible . I
wear a reflective vest that can be also worn over a Jacket ( same as road construction workers wear
) on my commutes . In dusk or early morning , during inclimate weather, I use 2 - 4 small flashing
strobe lights that can be seen from all sides and easily clip on my clothing and be seen at eye
level by most drivers up to a mile away . When approaching an intersection , make eye contact with
the other drivers to make sure they are aware of youe presence . Look out for occupants in vehicles
parked alongside the roadway and give yourself room to avoid getting "DOORED". To avoid being cut
off or clipped by a car trying to pass you and making a right turn at an intersection directly in
front of you , move towards the center of the lane . During winter weather , it is a good idea to
use studded tires on icy pavement . The extra cost is justified compared to the cost of hospital
emergency room visits .

When you are getting started , give yourself plenty of time the first few weeks so you won't get
too freaked out and so you can get used to the traffic patterns ( this is a new learning
experience for you and can be somewhat stressful ).I have been commutting this way for 18 years
and I found ( even some research shows this ) that the more you commute like this , the more
experience you gain , the less likelyhood you are going to be involved in an accident .

I have only listed a few items above and others may add to this . A lot is just plain common sence
(sp?) and some you will learn as you gain experience .

Good luck , and have fun !

M&M

"determined" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<4mzCa.1100667$S_4.1112447@rwcrnsc53>...

Quoted message said:

Ok, I have a mountain bike... But I'd like to start riding to work, for health reasons and
environmental reasons. I've never ridden in town, and I live in Portland, OR. I'm very intimidated
by cars, heavy traffic, maneuvering intersections, etc. I only have a 5 mile ride one way, which
is perfect IMO, and I just haven't had the courage to try this ride for fear of getting run over
by a car!

What's the best way to break into riding in a city?

Get a motorcycle.

JD

Kathleen <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Pete said:

"determined" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:4mzCa.1100667$S_4.1112447@rwcrnsc53...

Quoted message said:

Ok, I have a mountain bike... But I'd like to start riding to work, for health reasons and
environmental reasons. I've never ridden in town, and

I

Quoted message said:

live in Portland, OR. I'm very intimidated by cars, heavy traffic, maneuvering intersections,
etc. I only have a 5 mile ride one way, which

is

Quoted message said:

perfect IMO, and I just haven't had the courage to try this ride for fear

of

Quoted message said:

getting run over by a car!

What's the best way to break into riding in a city?

determined

Start small. Subdivisions, neighborhood streets..anything low key.

Follow the rules, anticipate cagers foolish actions, be predictable.

Assume that the car coming out of the driveway WILL pull out in front of you.

Move on to slighty busier streets as you feel more comfortable.

Pete They don't want to hit you any more than you want them to, if only to avoid the scratched
paint and the paperwork...

All that AND, at intersections, even if it's your turn at a 4-way stop sign, even if you've
got the green light, look for eye contact from drivers before you proceed.

You're never driven in GJ, have you? These morons will look right at a semi truck and pull out in
front of them. I've seen it happen. They constantly pull out in front of me in a big 'ol silver 4x4
pickup while looking right at me. Sometimes they even wait until I'm closer, especially when I'm on
my motorcycle.

My rule has been and will always be, if they look like they have the potential to do something
really stupid, they will...whether they look at you or not.

I've been riding motorcycles on the street since 1982 and have yet to be picked off by a motorist. I
have had some pretty close calls, but the "rule" has kept me out of the hospital on all of those
occasions.

JD

"determined" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I'm very intimidated by cars, heavy traffic, maneuvering intersections, etc. I only have a 5 mile
ride one way, which is perfect IMO, and I just haven't had the courage to try this ride for fear
of getting run over by a car!

Take a look at:

bicyclesafe.comindex.htmlOpen ↗

It'll give you some good tips on vehicular cycling. Even better, pick up a copy of "Effective
Cycling" by John Forester and read chapters 26-35. You _can_ ride safely in heavy traffic, but it
requires education and practice.

CC

Corvus Corvax said:

"determined" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I'm very intimidated by cars, heavy traffic, maneuvering intersections, etc. I only have a 5
mile ride one way, which is perfect IMO, and I just haven't had the courage to try this ride for
fear of getting run over by a car!

Take a look at:

bicyclesafe.comindex.htmlOpen ↗

It'll give you some good tips on vehicular cycling. Even better, pick up a copy of "Effective
Cycling" by John Forester and read chapters 26-35. You _can_ ride safely in heavy traffic, but it
requires education and practice.

CC

or check this link out... It has scads of info....

strangecult.comsprocket.htmlOpen ↗

Jimbo...Thanks for the link Supabonbon...(san)

(JD) said:

You're never driven in GJ, have you? These morons will look right at a semi truck and pull out in
front of them. I've seen it happen. They constantly pull out in front of me in a big 'ol silver 4x4
pickup while looking right at me. Sometimes they even wait until I'm closer, especially when I'm on
my motorcycle.

JD, it probably takes them that long to recognize you... ;-)

Quoted message said:

My rule has been and will always be, if they look like they have the potential to do something
really stupid, they will...whether they look at you or not.

Words to live by. No one ever goes to the hospital by underestimating the intelligence of drivers
around them.

Quoted message said:

I've been riding motorcycles on the street since 1982 and have yet to be picked off by a motorist.
I have had some pretty close calls, but the "rule" has kept me out of the hospital on all of those
occasions.

I've managed to miss the cars on my motorcycles, and had on my road bike through 100,000+ road
miles - until:

habcycles.combikecrash.htmlOpen ↗

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the $695 ti frame

JD said:

Kathleen <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Pete said:

"determined" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:4mzCa.1100667$S_4.1112447@rwcrnsc53...

>Ok, I have a mountain bike... But I'd like to start riding to work, for health reasons and
>environmental reasons. I've never ridden in town, and

I

>live in Portland, OR. I'm very intimidated by cars, heavy traffic, maneuvering intersections,
>etc. I only have a 5 mile ride one way, which

is

>perfect IMO, and I just haven't had the courage to try this ride for fear

of

>getting run over by a car!
>
>What's the best way to break into riding in a city?
>
>determined

Start small. Subdivisions, neighborhood streets..anything low key.

Follow the rules, anticipate cagers foolish actions, be predictable.

Assume that the car coming out of the driveway WILL pull out in front of you.

Move on to slighty busier streets as you feel more comfortable.

Pete They don't want to hit you any more than you want them to, if only to avoid the scratched
paint and the paperwork...

All that AND, at intersections, even if it's your turn at a 4-way stop sign, even if you've
got the green light, look for eye contact from drivers before you proceed.

You're never driven in GJ, have you? These morons will look right at a semi truck and pull out in
front of them. I've seen it happen. They constantly pull out in front of me in a big 'ol silver
4x4 pickup while looking right at me. Sometimes they even wait until I'm closer, especially when
I'm on my motorcycle.

My rule has been and will always be, if they look like they have the potential to do something
really stupid, they will...whether they look at you or not.

I've been riding motorcycles on the street since 1982 and have yet to be picked off by a motorist.
I have had some pretty close calls, but the "rule" has kept me out of the hospital on all of those
occasions.

It's true that there is a butt-load of stupidness out there. And some out and out malice, as
well. But it's the stupid - the oblivious - that's liable to get you, just because it's more
common. Making eye contact is an attempt at communication; an attempt to assess intent. If a
driver meets my eye and acknowledges me, I feel pretty safe proceeding when the light turns.
I've *never* had somebody nod an acknowledgement then lunge their vehicle into my path. If
they don't or won't look at me, I proceed with extreme caution. They're either stupid, or
rude and willing to try to pass it off as stupid. Either way, it's bad. As to DK's strategy
of refusing to look at drivers so's they know he's serious and he's gonna go for it... Knock
yourself out, David. I, for one, do not play chicken with metallic objects that outmass me
by a factor of 10 or 20. Before I make the stay-or-go decision, I want every last scrap of
available data, and that includes a direct visual assessment of the driver, his attitude,
and where his attention is focused.

Kathleen

Mark Hickey said:

I've managed to miss the cars on my motorcycles, and had on my road bike through 100,000+ road
miles - until:

habcycles.combikecrash.htmlOpen ↗

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the $695 ti frame

But was the bike okay????? ;-)

Jimbo(san)

Kathleen wrote: ...

Quoted message said:

It's true that there is a butt-load of stupidness out there. And some out and out malice, as
well. But it's the stupid - the oblivious - that's liable to get you, just because it's more
common. Making eye contact is an attempt at communication; an attempt to assess intent. If a
driver meets my eye and acknowledges me, I feel pretty safe proceeding when the light turns.
I've *never* had somebody nod an acknowledgement then lunge their vehicle into my path. If
they don't or won't look at me, I proceed with extreme caution. They're either stupid, or rude
and willing to try to pass it off as stupid. Either way, it's bad. As to DK's strategy of
refusing to look at drivers so's they know he's serious and he's gonna go for it... Knock
yourself out, David. I, for one, do not play chicken with metallic objects that outmass me by
a factor of 10 or 20. Before I make the stay-or-go decision, I want every last scrap of
available data, and that includes a direct visual assessment of the driver, his attitude, and
where his attention is focused.

Kathleen

I guess I only do it when I get really tired of having my right of way stomped-on. You're probably
right that it'll eventually get me in trouble 🙂.

David