Salzburg + southeast Germany

Ken Roberts said:

* the number of people we saw out bicycling on weekdays was amazing. I don't
know where people got the idea that Italy was a big bicycling country
compared with this,

I don't know either.
As a matter of fact in Italy it is usually quite hard to find a
reasonable way to bike from one place to another It takes a lot of
experience and ingenuity in map reading, if not luck.
Road signs are never put up for riders' benefit; tunnels are unlit or
poorly so and detours simply forgotten about, if not just blocked off;
trains that let you take a bike on are becoming rarer and rarer on most
important lines; bicycle paths are put up to hit the headlines on the
newspapers, for political reasons in fact: they are just a joke.
Beware!

Sergio
Pisa

Quoted message said:

Ken Roberts said:

* the number of people we saw out bicycling on weekdays was amazing. I don't
know where people got the idea that Italy was a big bicycling country
compared with this,

I don't know either.
As a matter of fact in Italy it is usually quite hard to find a
reasonable way to bike from one place to another It takes a lot of
experience and ingenuity in map reading, if not luck.
Road signs are never put up for riders' benefit; tunnels are unlit or
poorly so and detours simply forgotten about, if not just blocked off;
trains that let you take a bike on are becoming rarer and rarer on most
important lines; bicycle paths are put up to hit the headlines on the
newspapers, for political reasons in fact: they are just a joke.
Beware!

Sergio
Pisa

Next Euro trip, GPS is at the top of the packing list.

R Brickston wrote

Quoted message said:

Next Euro trip, GPS is at the top of the packing list.

I have not found navigation in Europe harder than in USA, and in one way
easier -- based on riding so far in France, Italy, Switzerland, Austria,
Germany, Spain, and a day in the Czech republic.

The key difference I find is that road signs in USA tend to be based on the
_road_ -- its name or number. Road signs in Europe tend to be based on the
_place_ or places the road is going toward -- though some areas, especially
France, are adding lots of road numbers. Navigation by either system can
break down if signs are missing or misleading, or if the name on the sign
doesn't agree with your out-of-date or inaccurate map.

Advantage of the European approach is that if the name of the place you want
to get to has been selected to appear on the road signs, you can mostly just
keep following that place name thru several intersections and turns to get
to where you're going, not worry about changes in road names.

Most of the time in Europe, Sharon and I have some 1:200000 map, and we find
that if we stick to roads shown and places named on that scale of map (which
does not show all the little roads), we don't have much problem with
navigation and we find pretty + interesting riding (and for us this works in
Italy just as well as in other countries).

The tricky part comes when we see some interesting little road or bike route
sign that lures us onto the smaller roads, and then things don't look like
we expected -- especially if it's getting late in the day or the weather is
turning bad.

So I have not used GPS for navigation in Europe, and have not thought I
needed it. I briefly tried GPS in USA, but found it more of hassle than it
was worth, so now I'm back to maps and road signs for both.

Ken

Ken Roberts said:

I have not found navigation in Europe harder than in USA, and in one way
easier -- based on riding so far in France, Italy, Switzerland, Austria,
Germany, Spain, and a day in the Czech republic.

Europe is rather varied, I reckon.
Let me talk Italy.
Identification numbers of the roads are not always easy, nor possible,
to spot.
You invariable have to rely on signs telling destination towns: these
are always there.
Which towns in that direction is up to the Authority that put up the
signs; so often they are simply stupid, and they can be quite
misleading.
More often than not, when a new road has been opened to avoid through
traffic, you simply cannot identify the most direct road, usually the
old road, that you want to stay on. So, if you follow the signs, you
might be taken on a long detour and, in some cases, to the entrance of
a tunnel that you are not allowed to enter, and in fact you would not
want to challange.
In short, you often simply must ignore signs put up for motorists; nor
are there so many of them for bike riders.

Sergio
Pisa

Sergio wrote

Quoted message said:

Let me talk about Italy

I do not remember navigating in Italy to be significantly harder or easier
than other European countries or the United States -- and I've cycled and
skated on roads in lots of places around Italy -- though surely not as many
places and as many days as Sergio.

So maybe I've just been lucky. Or maybe since I'm just a visitor, I don't
attempt as sophisticated routes and difficult goals as Sergio. Or maybe
since I'm from USA, I don't expect much support for bicyclists or
road-skaters. Anyway I sure hope I'll get the chance to go to Italy for more
bicycle touring.

I do bring one special piece of equipment for safer + better cycling in
Europe:
GSM mobile phone
with SIM card(s) that works in the countries I'm visiting.

Ken

Ken Roberts said:

Quoted message said:

Let me talk about Italy

Quoted message said:

I do not remember navigating in Italy to be significantly harder or
easier than other European countries or the United States -- and
I've cycled and skated on roads in lots of places around Italy --
though surely not as many places and as many days as Sergio.

Typically in south Tirol between Merano and Bolzano, roundabouts have
been built at many road junctions with signs that try to direct people
to their toll autostrada with no alternative sign for the conventional
highway. I've learned to follow my nose in those area and not the
signs.

In addition, a destination at one road junction often has no distance
given and is not present on the sign at the next road junction. This
was once better and may again get better as enough complaints are
registered.

Quoted message said:

So maybe I've just been lucky. Or maybe since I'm just a visitor, I
don't attempt as sophisticated routes and difficult goals as Sergio.
Or maybe since I'm from USA, I don't expect much support for
bicyclists or road-skaters. Anyway I sure hope I'll get the chance
to go to Italy for more bicycle touring.

The route I described is not complex and was once easily understood.

Quoted message said:

I do bring one special piece of equipment for safer + better cycling
in Europe:

Quoted message said:

GSM mobile phone with SIM card(s) that works in the countries I'm
visiting.

You can do that with Cingular, for instance, the expanded service
costs $5.60/mo and works like a charm. You can enter phone numbers
into your directory with the international and country area code and
they will work everywhere. I had no problem telephoning from Praha or
Slovenia, tho the USA, local calls, and to my riding companion who
also had international service.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Ken Roberts said:

Quoted message said:

Let me talk about Italy

Quoted message said:

I do not remember navigating in Italy to be significantly harder or
easier than other European countries or the United States -- and
I've cycled and skated on roads in lots of places around Italy --
though surely not as many places and as many days as Sergio.

Typically in south Tirol between Merano and Bolzano, roundabouts have
been built at many road junctions with signs that try to direct people
to their toll autostrada with no alternative sign for the conventional
highway. I've learned to follow my nose in those area and not the
signs.

In addition, a destination at one road junction often has no distance
given and is not present on the sign at the next road junction. This
was once better and may again get better as enough complaints are
registered.

Quoted message said:

So maybe I've just been lucky. Or maybe since I'm just a visitor, I
don't attempt as sophisticated routes and difficult goals as Sergio.
Or maybe since I'm from USA, I don't expect much support for
bicyclists or road-skaters. Anyway I sure hope I'll get the chance
to go to Italy for more bicycle touring.

The route I described is not complex and was once easily understood.

Quoted message said:

I do bring one special piece of equipment for safer + better cycling
in Europe:

Quoted message said:

GSM mobile phone with SIM card(s) that works in the countries I'm
visiting.

You can do that with Cingular, for instance, the expanded service
costs $5.60/mo and works like a charm. You can enter phone numbers
into your directory with the international and country area code and
they will work everywhere. I had no problem telephoning from Praha or
Slovenia, tho the USA, local calls, and to my riding companion who
also had international service.

Jobst Brandt

Unless Cingular has significantly dropped their international roaming
rates, it is cheaper to buy the SIM card and use an unlocked GSM
phone.

Ken Roberts said:

I do not remember navigating in Italy to be significantly harder or easier
than other European countries or the United States -- and I've cycled and
skated on roads in lots of places around Italy -- though surely not as many
places and as many days as Sergio.

So maybe I've just been lucky. Or maybe since I'm just a visitor, I don't
attempt as sophisticated routes and difficult goals as Sergio. Or maybe
since I'm from USA, I don't expect much support for bicyclists or
road-skaters. Anyway I sure hope I'll get the chance to go to Italy for more
bicycle touring.

I do bring one special piece of equipment for safer + better cycling in
Europe:
GSM mobile phone
with SIM card(s) that works in the countries I'm visiting.

Ken

I also didn't have any problem finding my way in northern Italy. Near
the end of my two week bike tour of northern Italy, I ride into Trento
and from Trento I put my bike and myself on the train to Milan. At
Milan central station I had intended to ride to Milan international
airport. Couldn't do it. I don't think it's possible. The roads are too
maze-like. I ended up putting my bike in a taxi .

Quoted message said:

Ken Roberts said:

Quoted message said:

Let me talk about Italy

I do not remember navigating in Italy to be significantly harder or
easier than other European countries or the United States

Typically in south Tirol between Merano and Bolzano,

I just won't annoy you with the many examples I could recounter. A few
will suffice, though.
Between Merano and Bolzano if you follow plainly the signs you will
detour so many little villages and find yoursef into unnecessary
tunnels.
I have had problemsf finding my way out of Bolzano heading to Lana
d'Adige.
Going back to downtown Milano from near Lecco, and following the most
obvious signs, I found myself on a Superstrada, where bikes are not
allowed.
Nevertheless, I have biked from downtown Milano almost into any
direction successfully when navigating by feeling. However I got lost
when I tried to stay on, marked!, bike paths going through the much
advertised Parco del Ticino. I gave up and rode down to Magenta to hit
the SS del Sempione.

But Italy is not at all the only bad example. Why is it that, both
times I was there in recent years, I felt forced onto the fast divided
highway to descend from Chamonix to Saint Gervais?
One system I particularly appreciated was the one in Hungary, Those
roads bear a number and how many digits tell you the category of the
road.

Cheers

Sergio
Pisa

Quoted message said:

Between Merano and Bolzano if you follow plainly the signs you will
detour so many little villages and find yoursef into unnecessary
tunnels.

Errata Corrige
I meant north of Merano, between Merano and Prato allo Stelvio.

Sergio
Pisa

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Between Merano and Bolzano if you follow plainly the signs you will
detour so many little villages and find yoursef into unnecessary
tunnels.

Errata Corrige
I meant north of Merano, between Merano and Prato allo Stelvio.

....... and, further down, looking for the way out of Merano to Lana
d'Adige and Bolzano..
At Lana d'Adige I recall seeing many foreign bike riders desperately
searching for the bike trail to jump back onto, again.
As Jobst correctly says, it is not easy at all to find the old route
for Bolzano; you need to hop to the other side of the river, but no
signs point you there. As a matter of fact, once you hit that road you
rejoice, since there is so little traffic. No wonder!

Sergio
Pisa

Quoted message said:

Sergio
Pisa

R Brickston wrote

Quoted message said:

Unless Cingular has significantly dropped their international
roaming rates, it is cheaper to buy the SIM card and use an unlocked GSM
phone.

Yes, I think that getting a local country SIM card is generally cheaper, if
you're going to use the phone a lot. Usually you need to have your own
_unlocked_ GSM phone in order to use them. Both unlocked phones and country
SIM cards can be purchased from Web stores.

U.S. mobile services other than Cingular also offer international roaming
accounts for GSM phones. If you intend to use the account for multiple
trips, I'd suggest finding a deal that lets you take only their SIM card,
and use it with your own (unlocked) GSM phone -- instead of renting or
purchasing a package with a locked GSM phone that will not permit you to
switch to a local-country SIM card.

Advantages of a local-country SIM card for GSM phone:
* often cheaper rates in the local country -- provided you intend to send or
receive enough calls to use a significant amount of the prepaid minutes.
* if you have local-country riding partners who want to call you, then your
number will be an in-country call for them.
* some of the local-country plans also have international roaming. (e.g. the
Sunrise SIM card I've got for Switzerland worked fine in other countries.)

Disadvantages:
* if you use up the minutes on the SIM card, you have to purchase a
recharge -- available at lots of local shops (some services have ways to pay
for recharge by phone call or website)
* phone menu prompts might not be in a language you know well (some SIM
cards allow you to select English)
* voice-mail prompts might not be in a language you know well (some services
allow you to select English)
* some SIM cards expire after 9 months, so if you come back to Europe every
year around July, you might have to purchase a new SIM card with a new phone
number (but some Euro SIM cards stay active for 12 months, and at least one
says it will hold your phone number for 18 months)

Advantages of an account provided thru a U.S. company:
* no limit on minutes, no need to recharge
* phone number does not expire
* phone text prompts and voice-mail are in English
* if you don't travel often outside U.S. + Canada, tends to reduce
complexity.

Ken

Ken Roberts said:

R Brickston wrote

Quoted message said:

Unless Cingular has significantly dropped their international
roaming rates, it is cheaper to buy the SIM card and use an unlocked GSM
phone.

Yes, I think that getting a local country SIM card is generally cheaper, if
you're going to use the phone a lot. Usually you need to have your own
_unlocked_ GSM phone in order to use them. Both unlocked phones and country
SIM cards can be purchased from Web stores.

Of course, either strategy presumes one has a phone with the proper
bands. For those who do not follow such things, GSM in Europe (and
most of the world) is 900MHz and 1800 MHz bands, in the US GSM is on
1900MHz and 850MHz. The older 900 MHz band is most widespread, so it
is imperative in most any phone you want to use outside the US.

- rick 'who always carries a quad-band unlocked GSM phone'

Quoted message said:

Ken Roberts wrote:
Europe is rather varied, I reckon.
Let me talk Italy.
Identification numbers of the roads are not always easy, nor possible,
to spot.
You invariable have to rely on signs telling destination towns: these
are always there.
Which towns in that direction is up to the Authority that put up the
signs; so often they are simply stupid, and they can be quite
misleading.

Based on riding in South Tirol and across the Po Valley towars Torino I
have to agree with Servadio. The destinations on the signs seem to be
randomly chosen, it's a nightmare. Anytime the road number was
sign-posted it wasn't marked on my TCI map (and that's Italian). In
South Tirol things are easier because of the narrow valleys, you can use
your nose, as Jobst said. Driving around Sicilian country roads had the
same difficulties, signs are cryptic.

France is easy, since every junction has the road number marked,
Switzerland is easy since every junction has both the logical
destinations and the road number sign-posted.

Jan Lindström

Good point on the frequency bands.

The other thing to consider is who you're _call_ on the phone if you get in
trouble out on a ride and don't know much of the local country language.
Good to do that research in advance -- not wait until you're standing on a
lonely roadside in the cold rain with your front rim in a pretzel shape.

Of course there are the country's emergency numbers.
But sometimes it's not a "true" emergency -- more like a major mechanical
breakdown, for which you might want some help, so . . .

Other likely possible phone numbers to find people to speak English are:
* local tourist office (for hours when they're open)
* hotel where you just stayed last night, or are planning to stay this
night - (If you included "likelihood of speaking English" in your selection
of possible lodging for the area -- sometimes the proprietors don't speak
English, but their daughter learned it from TV + movies + songs).

Those numbers are pretty easy to find in a Web search before I leave. I
don't put most numbers into my phone, just have them printed or written down
in a dry place.

If you want to have more options available, there's other phone numbers
which might come in handy:
* taxi services
* bicycle shops
Doesn't hurt to have multiple phone numbers, just keep calling different
ones until you find someone who can speak enough English to help -- or some
Taxi companies advertise English in their phone directory listings.

The telephone directories of lotsa major European countries are on the
web -- searchable much like U.S. "yellow pages" by type of business -- but
sometimes figuring out the search interface and guessing the right business
topic words and place names is not easy. So whether Sharon and I get those
numbers depends on how fearful we're feeing and how much time we have free
before we leave the U.S. -- and how much we're feeling like finding phone
numbers in another country is an interesting puzzle.

Ken