Salt Intake on Hot Days

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from
[email hidden] of 10 Mar 2005:

Quoted message said:

One more question.

The only long race I've run was in October and it was darn cold.
This year I plan to do a 50K trail in July. Could be bloody hot.
I need some ideas on how to handle the electrolyte question.

My stomach is a bit sensitive too. Gatorade is OK for me but
some more salty sports drink (Cytosomething) I tried
last year made me sick right away. I will be testing this
on my training runs, but at this point I'm kinda lost.

thanks for any help....thehick

There are no sports drinks that provide enough sodium for a 50K run. If
they did have enough, it would be like drinking sea water. What works for
me is drinking whatever your race will be serving and supplementing that
with Succeed! capsules.

http://www.ultrafit-endurance.com (click on SUCCEED! capsules link)

That way you can get enough sodium without affecting the taste of your
drink. Of course you'll want to practice on some of your long training
runs. Karl King, the inventor of S!caps recommends taking one capsule per
hour or sooner if your fluids are sloshing in your stomach or if you feel
queasy. Also if your diet is fairly salty to begin with, you may need to
take more sodium. The acceptable range is broad, and a 50K is short
enough that its not critical to have this just right. On runs of 20+
miles I take one S!cap per hour of running, along with about a liter of
fluid (Cytomax - 10 oz every 2 miles).

Here's the breakdown:

Cytomax - 1.5 scoops per 16 oz
Calories - 150
Sodium - 150 mg
Potassium - 165 mg
Carbohydrates - 30 g
Sugars - 16.5 g
Vitamin C - 90 mg

Succeed! - 1 Capsule
Sodium - 344 mg
Potassium - 21 mg

Phil M.

--
"What counts in battle is what you do once the pain sets in." -John
Short, South African coach.

"frank-in-toronto" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

One more question.

The only long race I've run was in October and it was darn cold.
This year I plan to do a 50K trail in July. Could be bloody hot.
I need some ideas on how to handle the electrolyte question.

To avoid the taste issue with salt and fluids I use SUCCEED!Caps. They
are very simple salt caps with a little bicarb. Very popular on the
ultra circuit. See http://store.yahoo.com/ultrafit/index.html I have no
financial interest just a happy user for many years. You will need to
practice using these in training to know how many and how frequent in
what heat conditions. What is nice about the caps is the convenience. If
you feel you need to take one an hour you simply pop one each hour not
caring where the aid station is.

You will need to learn to eat some whole food on the 50k.

Quoted message said:

My stomach is a bit sensitive too. Gatorade is OK for me but
some more salty sports drink (Cytosomething) I tried

You may not like the taste of Cytomax but it's not from salt unless it
was mixed to rich and then most drinks taste like [censored] when to strong.
Cyto is about 100mg per serving. It does have some fructose which does
bother some people but if you get gatorkaka down cytomax should be just
fine.

Quoted message said:

last year made me sick right away. I will be testing this
on my training runs, but at this point I'm kinda lost.

They have lots of flavors. On the same web page above is S!ultra, their
sport drink. Unfortunately you can not taste it before buying. Like
cytomax it is a maltodextrin based drink. Most of my races serve this
on the course. It's a very light orange flavor.

Quoted message said:

thanks for any help....thehick

Hope it helps. What 50K, DamnTuff Ruff?

-DougF

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 00:48:34 GMT, "Doug Freese" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

....

Quoted message said:

You will need to learn to eat some whole food on the 50k.

yep. i'm looking forward to some pb/jelly sandwichs. right
now i'm thinking white bread instead of whole wheat.
seems to me fibre isn't what i'll be needing.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My stomach is a bit sensitive too. Gatorade is OK for me but
some more salty sports drink (Cytosomething) I tried

You may not like the taste of Cytomax but it's not from salt unless it
was mixed to rich and then most drinks taste like [censored] when to strong.

well, i might have mixed it wrong, but i tried it twice, and almost
threw up each time. i won't be trying it again. i only tried it
because that's what the marathon last year was doling out.
i stuck with water.
....

Quoted message said:

Hope it helps. What 50K, DamnTuff Ruff?

that's the one. if i can talk a family member into being
my support crew, will they be able to give me supplies
at the start/finish line as i loop? or is it against the rules?
if you don't know, that's fine. i have plenty of time
to find out from the RD.

i'll most likely be running with a buddy whose
race experience is exactly 1 5K trail and 1 road marathon
so the info i'm gathering will be for him too. we both plan
to finish no matter what. time doesn't matter.
....thehick

"frank-in-toronto" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 00:48:34 GMT, "Doug Freese" <[email hidden]>
well, i might have mixed it wrong, but i tried it twice, and almost
threw up each time. i won't be trying it again. i only tried it
because that's what the marathon last year was doling out.
i stuck with water.

It's not on the web page but I would suggest you ask the RD what the
aid stations will contain for both fluid and food. At least find out if
you like what they will serve and if not what you can do.

Quoted message said:

if i can talk a family member into being
my support crew, will they be able to give me supplies
at the start/finish line as i loop? or is it against the rules?

I would check with the RD but I have yet to see a race that would not
let allow a crew as long as the aid station is open for traffic. You
might find if you wanted a personal crew at aid station 2, it is closed
because it can not handle cars. You may also find you will run past you
car at the start/finish or they may have a place designated where you
can keep you cooler, race bag and service yourself. For this race a crew
would be nice company but necessary. You would want to carry a water
bottle even though there are aid stations are every 5k ish. Sip
frequently rather then gulp at each aid station.

Quoted message said:

i'll most likely be running with a buddy whose
race experience is exactly 1 5K trail and 1 road marathon
so the info i'm gathering will be for him too. we both plan
to finish no matter what. time doesn't matter.

Not a lot of experience so go slow and walked the uphills. "hilly rough
trail" means [censored] footing and lots of hills. Go easy and last or ...

-DougF

Doug Freese said:

To avoid the taste issue with salt and fluids I use SUCCEED!Caps. They
are very simple salt caps with a little bicarb. Very popular on the
ultra circuit. See http://store.yahoo.com/ultrafit/index.html I have no
financial interest just a happy user for many years. You will need to
practice using these in training to know how many and how frequent in
what heat conditions. What is nice about the caps is the convenience. If
you feel you need to take one an hour you simply pop one each hour not
caring where the aid station is.

Another approach to taking these is by volume of water. I've found that
taking one for every 2 bottles of water (40 oz total) works for me. This
works in all weather conditions so I don't have to sweat if I'm taking
them often enough if it's hot because I'm naturally drinking more.
Conversely I drink less when it's cool so may only take one every 3
hours. Note that I don't count sports drink in my ratio and usually I
drink 1 bottle of sports drink for every 2 of water.

--
- The Trailrunner

Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS*

Trails of the Diablo Valley
*Running - Hiking - Nature*
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/trails/6016/

frank-in-toronto said:

One more question.

The only long race I've run was in October and it was darn cold.
This year I plan to do a 50K trail in July. Could be bloody hot.
I need some ideas on how to handle the electrolyte question.

My stomach is a bit sensitive too. Gatorade is OK for me but
some more salty sports drink (Cytosomething) I tried
last year made me sick right away. I will be testing this
on my training runs, but at this point I'm kinda lost.

Cytomax varies considerably among flavors. Also the directions on the
envelopes (40g/16oz water) (which I suspect is what you tested) are more
concentrated than those on the can (25g/16oz). I use 1 scoop (25 g) in
20 oz, and that works ok for CoolCitrus flavor for me.

I started with Tangy Orange (at envelope strength - 40g/16oz), and I
hated that strong taste whereas I usually like orange. I should retry it
sometime at the weaker strength. I think some of their flavors
(including Tangy orange, iirc) have "herbal lift" or something. When I
use cytomax, I've been using Cool Citrus (no herbal lift) which is much
mellower. Now that I'm almost to the bottom of a 4.5 lb can after about
2.5 yrs, I'll start testing some more flavors 😉 (I've got several other
drinks that I use besides cytomax)

It's possible that something in cytomax in general does make you sick
(fructose is less than Gatorade), but it's also possible it was
something related to that flavor or the strength. Just a thought.

Dot

--
"After 26 hours 38 minutes, we accomplished our mission, and the next
day were fortunate to read about our adventure in the sports section of
the local papers rather than the obituaries."
-Dean Karnazes recounting their running of the WS100 trail in winter.

Pansy.

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cytomax varies considerably among flavors. Also the directions on the
envelopes (40g/16oz water) (which I suspect is what you tested) are
more concentrated than those on the can (25g/16oz). I use 1 scoop (25
g) in 20 oz, and that works ok for CoolCitrus flavor for me.

Hmm, I've never seen the envelopes sold around here. It's always the 1.5
or 4.5 pound can. Good to know. If you like the Citrus you may want to
try the tropical(get a small can) , it's close yet a little different.

Quoted message said:

It's possible that something in cytomax in general does make you sick
(fructose is less than Gatorade), but it's also possible it was
something related to that flavor or the strength. Just a thought.

Without a doubt it light years better in content then gartorkaka as long
as the taste is not offensive. The only bad grade it gets, at least
from those that I trust on this issue, is the potassium and salt ration
is 1:1 and deemed too high at least for races longer than 50. I know
when I switched from Cytomax to Clip II for my 100, about 90% of my
stomach problems were resolved.

Now I have to go back to the drawing board with Slimfast since they only
make that damn low-carb version. It still tastes ok but I wanted it for
the calories.

-DougF

October, sounds like the month the money is settled here to paint in
this Winter state.
More B.S.
Q fever well put me out of action for the 3rd year of
what I am by your so bad p on.
Leaders. on land grabs, future freecamp grounds n on hold..... with
driveway and draine pipe for road. needs a fire pit. oh hell..buy
store food or kill me some meat.
So with this said.
Time to ride for miles to K Y A in miles.
because runners are well.
silver in my butt.

biking belloing style.
is like. haveing your cake an eating it two.

Doug - Ever try Power Dream? If you like soy milk, it has fairly
compareable ingredients (ie calories, carb/protein ratio etc) to
original slimfast, although with less Na and K (but that shouldn't be a
problem for you if you use succeed caps, right?). I think its delicious
and use it for recovery after all my long runs.

No, I do not work for them or get any money from them, but here's their
website if you'd like to check it out:
http://www.imaginefoods.com/pages/products/powerdream.php

ilona

The Trailrunner said:

Doug Freese said:

To avoid the taste issue with salt and fluids I use SUCCEED!Caps. They
are very simple salt caps with a little bicarb. Very popular on the
ultra circuit. See http://store.yahoo.com/ultrafit/index.html I have no
financial interest just a happy user for many years. You will need to
practice using these in training to know how many and how frequent in
what heat conditions. What is nice about the caps is the convenience. If
you feel you need to take one an hour you simply pop one each hour not
caring where the aid station is.

Another approach to taking these is by volume of water. I've found that
taking one for every 2 bottles of water (40 oz total) works for me.

i like that approach. i'll try it on my long training runs.
....thehick

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from [email hidden] of 11
Mar 2005:

Quoted message said:

Without a doubt it light years better in content then gartorkaka as
long as the taste is not offensive. The only bad grade it gets, at
least from those that I trust on this issue, is the potassium and salt
ration is 1:1 and deemed too high at least for races longer than 50.

Surely the folks at Cytosport have a reason for the potassium. I couldn't
find anything on their site that gives a reason for the 1:1 ration. I think
some people feel that it can reduce the chance of muscle cramping. But I
think that potassium is a stored mineral, so if you get enough potassium in
your diet, then taking extra potassium in a sports drink isn't necessary.

Phil M.

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from [email hidden] of 11
Mar 2005:

Quoted message said:

Doug - Ever try Power Dream? If you like soy milk, it has fairly
compareable ingredients (ie calories, carb/protein ratio etc) to
original slimfast, although with less Na and K (but that shouldn't be a
problem for you if you use succeed caps, right?). I think its delicious
and use it for recovery after all my long runs.

Thanks for the tip. My local food store still carries the old Slimfast.
Maybe it's been on the shelf forever. I'll see if I can find the Power
Dream stuff.

Phil M.

Phil M. said:

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from [email hidden] of 11
Mar 2005:

Quoted message said:

Without a doubt it light years better in content then gartorkaka as
long as the taste is not offensive. The only bad grade it gets, at
least from those that I trust on this issue, is the potassium and salt
ration is 1:1 and deemed too high at least for races longer than 50.

Surely the folks at Cytosport have a reason for the potassium. I couldn't
find anything on their site that gives a reason for the 1:1 ration. I think
some people feel that it can reduce the chance of muscle cramping. But I
think that potassium is a stored mineral, so if you get enough potassium in
your diet, then taking extra potassium in a sports drink isn't necessary.

I think the balance of electrolytes and therefore the
balance of electrolyte replacement during endurance
exercise is important. Normal dietary replacement would
seem to work for normal activities, not extraordinary
activities like marathon or ultra running. Besides,
most people's diets aren't that great. An electrolyte
balance exists when the quantities of electrolytes
gained equals the amount lost, and during long races
you lose a lot. Sodium, potassium, and calcium are
among the most important.

Like you I haven't a clue why different rehyd drinks
had different ratios of electrolytes, glucose etc.
Probably purely proprietary competition. But I doubt
a normal diet supplies enough potassium for running
marathon distances anymore than it supplies enough
sodium, especially when diluted from drinking up to
a liter/hr.

Doug Freese said:

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cytomax varies considerably among flavors. Also the directions on the
envelopes (40g/16oz water) (which I suspect is what you tested) are
more concentrated than those on the can (25g/16oz). I use 1 scoop (25
g) in 20 oz, and that works ok for CoolCitrus flavor for me.

Hmm, I've never seen the envelopes sold around here. It's always the 1.5
or 4.5 pound can. Good to know. If you like the Citrus you may want to
try the tropical(get a small can) , it's close yet a little different.

Ok, thanks. I've got an envelope of apple berry and a small can of pink
lemonade that I'll be testing. (as well as envelope of accelerade) While
I usually like pink lemonade, this didn't pass the test the 1st time, so
I reverted to known things until after last week's race. I used cytomax
for hydrating beforehand, ultra for the race, and slim-fast recovery.
I'll start testing some different stuff after Sat.

Quoted message said:

Now I have to go back to the drawing board with Slimfast since they only
make that damn low-carb version. It still tastes ok but I wanted it for
the calories.

Some thoughts I've had, but haven't begun to test yet. The ingredients
look like they reduced the sugars. So "simple" solution might be to add
the sugar back in. Of course, it's not as convenient 🙁 Possibly try
the powder, but mix with 2% or non-fat milk, rather than water (or
powdered milk + water). Not sure if that will provide shake texture. At
least the powder wouldn't be as expensive to mail order, if needed.

I think the Equate (Wal-Mart) may be like the original Slim-Fast. I
remember I didn't like the taste originally (couple years ago), but
didn't seem too bad when I tried it this winter, when I started poking
around cuz of the low carb nonsense.

Ensure has an assortment of products that a lot of people use for long
races.

I'm partial to the milk-based products because of the kinds of protein
in them and calcium.

Dot

--
"Do or do not. There is no try." -Yoda

"biking belloing style.
is like. haveing your cake an eating it two."
~ so-Fing BellieTodd

"... eating it two?
How so?"
~ Twittering

ooops - discovered tropical fruit envelope hiding in corner of closet 🙂

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from [email hidden]
of 11
Mar 2005:

Quoted message said:

Without a doubt it light years better in content then gartorkaka as
long as the taste is not offensive. The only bad grade it gets, at
least from those that I trust on this issue, is the potassium and
salt
ration is 1:1 and deemed too high at least for races longer than 50.

Surely the folks at Cytosport have a reason for the potassium. I
couldn't
find anything on their site that gives a reason for the 1:1 ration. I
think
some people feel that it can reduce the chance of muscle cramping. But
I
think that potassium is a stored mineral, so if you get enough
potassium in
your diet, then taking extra potassium in a sports drink isn't
necessary.

I don't agree and neither does Karl et al. Some potassium is necessary
for endurance, you don't store enough like glycogen. Ho much is the
issue. 1:1 as I understand it is too much K plus it keeps your stomach
unnecessarily acidic. I used to have a real problem with nasty GI for
the last 30 miles in a 100 while doing Cytomax. I moved to Clip! and
most of GI problems went away.

-DougF

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from [email hidden] of
12 Mar 2005:

Quoted message said:

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from [email hidden]
of 11
Mar 2005:

Quoted message said:

Without a doubt it light years better in content then gartorkaka as
long as the taste is not offensive. The only bad grade it gets, at
least from those that I trust on this issue, is the potassium and
salt
ration is 1:1 and deemed too high at least for races longer than 50.

Surely the folks at Cytosport have a reason for the potassium. I
couldn't
find anything on their site that gives a reason for the 1:1 ration. I
think
some people feel that it can reduce the chance of muscle cramping. But
I
think that potassium is a stored mineral, so if you get enough
potassium in
your diet, then taking extra potassium in a sports drink isn't
necessary.

I don't agree and neither does Karl et al. Some potassium is necessary
for endurance, you don't store enough like glycogen. Ho much is the
issue. 1:1 as I understand it is too much K plus it keeps your stomach
unnecessarily acidic. I used to have a real problem with nasty GI for
the last 30 miles in a 100 while doing Cytomax. I moved to Clip! and
most of GI problems went away.

Yes, but my question is why does Cytosport choose to have this ratio? Do
they just randomly make up the quantities? There must be a reason for the
1:1 ratio.

Phil M.