Saiz On Armstrong

B. Lafferty said:

Not well liked it appears.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1545&ncid=1545&e=2&u=/afp/20040702/sp_wl_afp/cycling_fra_tour_saiz_040702181108

Luis Ocana was a great cyclist. I find those old films of the tour
fantastic, even in the early 70s they were crossing unpaved road passes.

This year's cobbled section is about 2km.

It does seem that LA takes a lot from the sport. Maybe someone better
informed can tell me how much he is involved in his charity work, maybe
that is more important to him?

David Off said:

It does seem that LA takes a lot from the sport. Maybe someone
better informed can tell me how much he is involved in his charity
work, maybe that is more important to him?

I think what they mean is that he's not present for a lot of big
events. His season is the tour, plus, maybe, a few classics. That
irks a lot of tradionalists... although it's hard to really fault him
unless someone who does the full season can beat him.

--
David N. Welton
Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
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David N. Welton said:

David Off said:

It does seem that LA takes a lot from the sport. Maybe someone
better informed can tell me how much he is involved in his charity
work, maybe that is more important to him?

I think what they mean is that he's not present for a lot of big
events. His season is the tour, plus, maybe, a few classics. That
irks a lot of tradionalists... although it's hard to really fault him
unless someone who does the full season can beat him.

It's the same story. If the TdF itself weren't by far the biggest jewel
on the calendar then Armstrong (and those to come) wouldn't concentrate
so heavily on it. If there were as much prestige to winning the Giro
and Vuelta and World Cup as there is to winning the Tour then this
problem wouldn't even exist. Who wants the TdF to be less important?

But Manolo's suggestion that Lance shouldn't break the TdF record
because 5 is some kind of holy number is just twaddle.

"David N. Welton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Off said:

It does seem that LA takes a lot from the sport. Maybe someone
better informed can tell me how much he is involved in his charity
work, maybe that is more important to him?

I think what they mean is that he's not present for a lot of big
events. His season is the tour, plus, maybe, a few classics. That
irks a lot of tradionalists... although it's hard to really fault him
unless someone who does the full season can beat him.

Drum roll......The Pro Tour!

Saiz needs a reality adjustment. This is a different era, like it or not.
How many of the real Tour contenders are showing up at many classics? The
Tour de France is so big and touch from beginning to end that it takes a new
breed of rider to win. I, too, think Eddy was the greatest but wonder how
he would do today if he caught a DeLorian ride from 1970 and dropped into
tomorrow's start line. I suspect he would not do too well until he adapted
to today's Tour style, at which case he would still be at the top IMO. I
would like to see more of the top guys in more of the races but suspect that
Tour victory would then be the first casualty. Funny how Ullrich, who shows
up less often than Lance, does not catch any criticism.

Tim McTeague

Well said...

"Tim McTeague" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Saiz needs a reality adjustment. This is a different era, like it or not.
How many of the real Tour contenders are showing up at many classics? The
Tour de France is so big and touch from beginning to end that it takes a

new

Quoted message said:

breed of rider to win. I, too, think Eddy was the greatest but wonder how
he would do today if he caught a DeLorian ride from 1970 and dropped into
tomorrow's start line. I suspect he would not do too well until he

adapted

Quoted message said:

to today's Tour style, at which case he would still be at the top IMO. I
would like to see more of the top guys in more of the races but suspect

that

Quoted message said:

Tour victory would then be the first casualty. Funny how Ullrich, who

shows

Quoted message said:

up less often than Lance, does not catch any criticism.

Tim McTeague

Tim McTeague said:

Saiz needs a reality adjustment. This is a different era, like it or not.
How many of the real Tour contenders are showing up at many classics? The
Tour de France is so big and touch from beginning to end that it takes a new
breed of rider to win. I, too, think Eddy was the greatest but wonder how
he would do today if he caught a DeLorian ride from 1970 and dropped into
tomorrow's start line. I suspect he would not do too well until he adapted
to today's Tour style, at which case he would still be at the top IMO. I
would like to see more of the top guys in more of the races but suspect that
Tour victory would then be the first casualty. Funny how Ullrich, who shows
up less often than Lance, does not catch any criticism.

Tim McTeague

Ullrich has actually ridden much more than Armstrong,
year-by-year. Last year, Ullrich did not ride after the
Tour de France, but years before he rode a lot. I think
last year just meant that Ullrich's fitness base was a
kilometre wide but a decimetre deep.

Ullrich has definitely shown up more than Armstrong in the
in the last six years. Great rides (and some wins) in the
Vuelta, World Champs, Olympics, Zurich, Paris-Tours,
Luk-Cup, Hamburg, and so on....

But, you might suggest that Armstrong races before the tour
to prepare for the TdF, while Ullrich races after the tour
to salvage his season.

However, Ullrich definitely has better-rounded palmares than
Armstrong. He just has not beaten Armstrong in the Tour de
France yet.

steve

I think some of the dislike of Armstrong is from what seems to me to e
his brutal honesty. In his interviews he never seems to give the
typical athlete's answer that will please the crowd, but he gives
hisan honest answer. Most people really don't like this, they would
rather hear what they want to hear. For instance on OLN when asked by
Phil Liggett what Ullrich meant when he gave him his hand in the 2003
tour Armstrong said he didn't know, most people would have made
something up about sportmanship.

On Fri, 02 Jul 2004 19:56:46 GMT, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Not well liked it appears.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1545&ncid=1545&e=2&u=/afp/20040702/sp_wl_afp/cycling_fra_tour_saiz_040702181108

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Not well liked it appears.

Neither Saiz or Armstrong have many good friends in the peloton.

Quoted message said:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1545&ncid=1545&e=2&u=/afp/20
040702/sp_wl_afp/cycling_fra_tour_saiz_040702181108

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"David N. Welton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Off said:

It does seem that LA takes a lot from the sport. Maybe someone
better informed can tell me how much he is involved in his charity
work, maybe that is more important to him?

I think what they mean is that he's not present for a lot of big
events. His season is the tour, plus, maybe, a few classics. That
irks a lot of tradionalists... although it's hard to really fault him
unless someone who does the full season can beat him.

Drum roll......The Pro Tour!

Exactly. This is more about the power struggle between Saiz and Heiny than
it is about Lance although I bet Saiz has a Lance Voodoo doll with all kinds
of abuse inflicted on it.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tim McTeague said:

Funny how Ullrich, who shows
up less often than Lance, does not catch any criticism.

Tim McTeague

Last year Saiz was saying exactly the same thing about Ullrich in an
interview to l'Équipe (sometime before the final ITT). Although, as
someone else already mentioned in a message in this thread, Ullrich has
in general a pretty good post-TdF course schedule, I think that his use
of the Giro as a way to lose fat is something that has offended many
traditionalists.

jyh.

--
=====================================================================
jean-yves herve' /\
Department of Computer Science \/ e-mail --> [email hidden]
and Statistics /\
University of Rhode Island \/ Tel. --> (401) 874-4400
Kingston, RI 02881-0816 /\ Fax. --> (401) 874-4617
USA \/
=====================================================================

"Tim McTeague" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Saiz needs a reality adjustment. This is a different era, like it or not.
How many of the real Tour contenders are showing up at many classics? The
Tour de France is so big and touch from beginning to end that it takes a

new

Quoted message said:

breed of rider to win. I, too, think Eddy was the greatest but wonder how
he would do today if he caught a DeLorian ride from 1970 and dropped into
tomorrow's start line. I suspect he would not do too well until he

adapted

Quoted message said:

to today's Tour style, at which case he would still be at the top IMO.

Only if he had to race against those that are following the Armstrong model.
Actually, I don't think he would have any problems and neither would
Hinault. Just because Lance does it a certain way does not make it the only
recipe for success. That is simply how Lance needs to do it.

I

Quoted message said:

would like to see more of the top guys in more of the races but suspect

that

Quoted message said:

Tour victory would then be the first casualty.

Every time the race is run, there will be a winner. If they are all racing
all year then the playing feild is equal...so what is the problem? The
problem is that this model of focusing exclusively on the Tour is bad for
the Tour because it favors the incumbent, who is less at risk in doing so.
It does not make as much sense for the other contenders to follow suit
unless they too have won previously. It does skew the results a bit in light
of those facts.

Funny how Ullrich, who shows

Quoted message said:

up less often than Lance, does not catch any criticism.

He would if he won. Besides, Ullrich races about the same as Lance in the
previous months but a lot more after. Ullrich races a longer season but
again, probably because he is not winning. This is not about something that
Lance did. This is a trend in the sport that has to be addressed and the
Protour is the hoped for solution. Yikes.

Quoted message said:

Tim McTeague

in article [email hidden], jean-yves hervé at
[email hidden] wrote on 7/2/04 6:54 PM:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tim McTeague said:

Funny how Ullrich, who shows
up less often than Lance, does not catch any criticism.

Tim McTeague

Last year Saiz was saying exactly the same thing about Ullrich in an
interview to l'Équipe (sometime before the final ITT). Although, as
someone else already mentioned in a message in this thread, Ullrich has
in general a pretty good post-TdF course schedule, I think that his use
of the Giro as a way to lose fat is something that has offended many
traditionalists.

Ullrich hasn't done that in a few years, and neither has anyone else it
seems. Simoni is being the rigid traditionalist.

-Sonarrat.

"Tim McTeague" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Saiz needs a reality adjustment.

<snip>

Dumbass -

It's sour grapes.

Saiz is [censored] that he was never able to win the TdF with his team,
mainly because of Armstrong and Indurain, both of whom shared the same
similar formula.

Poor Manolo. My heart bleeds for him.

Vende! Vende! Vende! Vende! Vende! Vende! Vende!

As an aside, the concentration of publicity on the TdF is outside of
the control of the UCI. No other bike race can be as big because of:

1) the tradition of the TdF
2) the fact that it coincides w/ the European holiday season.

Unless the Euro holiday season moves from July or the TdF moves from
July, it will always be the biggest race by far.

No need to thank me for enlightening you. I am a Good Samaritan. Take
care and have a nice day.

K. Gringioni

K. Gringioni said:

Saiz is [censored] that he was never able to win the TdF with his team,
mainly because of Armstrong and Indurain, both of whom shared the same
similar formula.

Quoted message said:

Poor Manolo. My heart bleeds for him.

Quoted message said:

Vende! Vende! Vende! Vende! Vende! Vende! Vende!

Dumbass,

I think you just said "Sell! Sell! Sell! Sell!"
What are you now, a broker?

In addition to his sour grapes, who the hell is Manolo to talk?
After Jalabert left ONCE, their main results were a talent for
taking 2nd and 3rd in grand tours. Okay, maybe they, and now
Liberty Seguros, have won some one week Spanish stage races while
we weren't looking, but they've hardly taken all of those, and
they are of course invisible in most one day races. This is
"riding all season"?

Ben
Venga! Venga!

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"David N. Welton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Off <[email hidden]> writes:

> It does seem that LA takes a lot from the sport. Maybe someone
> better informed can tell me how much he is involved in his charity
> work, maybe that is more important to him?

I think what they mean is that he's not present for a lot of big
events. His season is the tour, plus, maybe, a few classics. That
irks a lot of tradionalists... although it's hard to really fault him
unless someone who does the full season can beat him.

Drum roll......The Pro Tour!

Exactly. This is more about the power struggle between Saiz and Heiny than
it is about Lance although I bet Saiz has a Lance Voodoo doll with all

kinds

Quoted message said:

of abuse inflicted on it.

I wonder if Kristin picked up a gris gris in New Orleans this year.

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Not well liked it appears.

Neither Saiz or Armstrong have many good friends in the peloton.

It depends who you ask. Most of the guys that have cycled for Sainz say he
is great and many more around that have not yet cycled for one of his teams,
openly say they would love to do it.

"alex" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Not well liked it appears.

Neither Saiz or Armstrong have many good friends in the peloton.

It depends who you ask. Most of the guys that have cycled for Sainz say

he

Quoted message said:

is great and many more around that have not yet cycled for one of his

teams,

Quoted message said:

openly say they would love to do it.

Sure, he has the authority to offer nice contracts to those riders. Why burn
bridges unless it is already up in flames? That is when you sometimes hear
how they really feel. Jalabert did not send any Christmas cards after he
left for Riis' team and neither did Zulle. Those are the 2 biggest stars by
far to ever work for him. Let's just hope that he has learned from some of
his many many mistakes.

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Tim McTeague" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Saiz needs a reality adjustment. This is a different era, like it or not.
How many of the real Tour contenders are showing up at many classics? The
Tour de France is so big and touch from beginning to end that it takes a

new

Quoted message said:

breed of rider to win. I, too, think Eddy was the greatest but wonder how
he would do today if he caught a DeLorian ride from 1970 and dropped into
tomorrow's start line. I suspect he would not do too well until he

adapted

Quoted message said:

to today's Tour style, at which case he would still be at the top IMO.

Only if he had to race against those that are following the Armstrong model.
Actually, I don't think he would have any problems and neither would
Hinault. Just because Lance does it a certain way does not make it the only
recipe for success. That is simply how Lance needs to do it.

I

Quoted message said:

would like to see more of the top guys in more of the races but suspect

that

Quoted message said:

Tour victory would then be the first casualty.

Every time the race is run, there will be a winner. If they are all racing
all year then the playing feild is equal...so what is the problem? The
problem is that this model of focusing exclusively on the Tour is bad for
the Tour because it favors the incumbent, who is less at risk in doing so.
It does not make as much sense for the other contenders to follow suit
unless they too have won previously. It does skew the results a bit in light
of those facts.

Unfortunately, the riders compete under very uneven
circumstances, which skew the results. The TdF is a team event, and
the reigning Tour Champion is usually able get the sponsor to make the
team flush with talent. Being the leader of a strong team is a major
advantage. Certainly, somebody like Hinault was able to take advantage
of this. Indeed, the fact that Hinault had Lemond on his team greatly
enhanced his chances of winning his 5th Tour, especially since Lemond
would otherwise probably have been his most dangerous rival.

There are certain aspects in Cycling where chivalry still
remains. However, the sport has vastly changed since Eddy Merckx was
racing. If armstrong wins the 2004 TdF, it will be a great achievement
(unless it is found that the accusations about LA using performance
enhancing drugs are correct), irrespective of the advantages that he
has from having a powerful team of mercenaries willing to fight to
make sure that Armstrong wins the Yellow, and his ability to leverage
from the wealth and status gained from his successes in the TdF.

Naturally, Armstrong should not be praised for his extreme
specialization, even if it is an effective method to prepare for the
TdF. And Armstrong's reputation should--and will-- suffer, because of
the relatively few Palmares that he has won.

Hopefully, now that the USPS sponsorship is ending, Armstrong might
be freed from competing in the 2005 TdF. If he wins this TdF, there
won't be much incentive for him to try to break his own record, and
risk getting beaten. This would allow him to strive for a bit more, by
committing to a fuller schedule. It's quite unlikely that he would
attempt them, but if he could pull off a win in the Giro d'Italia, or
the Vuelta de Espana, he would go a long ways towards bolstering his
reputation, and being considered to be on a par with the likes of
Anquetil and Hinault. In this respect, his first win in Spain or Italy
would be worth more than a 7th win at the TdF.

Quoted message said:

Funny how Ullrich, who shows

Quoted message said:

up less often than Lance, does not catch any criticism.

He would if he won. Besides, Ullrich races about the same as Lance in the
previous months but a lot more after. Ullrich races a longer season but
again, probably because he is not winning. This is not about something that
Lance did. This is a trend in the sport that has to be addressed and the
Protour is the hoped for solution. Yikes.

Quoted message said:

Tim McTeague