Safe descents?

Shayne Wissler said:

Is there any such thing?

No, there isn't. Any descent can be done taking too many risks for the rider, depending on skills
and on the circumstances. Not really a matter of grade.

However, there are extremely steep and winding roads where descending on a racing bike, v.s a Mtb
bike with thicker tyres and more braking power, is dangerous, no matter what, for anyone.

I am talking of paved roads, mind you; like a couple of those that descend the southern side of
Monte Grappa, in Northern Italy. If you go too fast you cannot control the bike; if you go slowly
enough your hands and arms get too tired from the braking action, and rims overheat to a
dangerous degree.

Sergio Pisa

Shayne Wissler said:

Is there any such thing?

I feel pretty comfortable descending a 7% grade. I usually try not to go too fast, about 45mph
without using my brakes. But a while ago I went to Park City, and found myself climbing a 10%
grade. Which was fine until I started going down. The only way to keep a slow enough speed was to
ride my brakes, or speed up and then stop. I came to a complete stop several times on the way down
to let my rims cool. There has to be a better way (besides riding a mountain bike up steep
grades).

And, I find it difficult enough to slow down when my tires are full of air. If I get a flat making
a descent is it pretty much over?

Shayne Wissler

I've been descending the hills around here (including Park City) for decades and have never crashed
or hit something. Big Cottonwood Canyon has a couple sections of steepness immediately followed by
sharp turns. That can get tricky but if you use aero-braking and pulse your brakes you can keep it
manageable without too much worry.

I think descending is perhaps only a little more risky than any other kind of riding. Except for
descending in a race when you might well accept more risk.

There was a recent thread in r.b.tech about brake heating and blowouts. It's a rare phenomenon.

--
--
Lynn Wallace xmission.com~lawallOpen ↗ "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

"Shayne Wissler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jZ%9b.373534$cF.111278@rwcrnsc53...

Quoted message said:

Is there any such thing?

No. I'm like you, below 8% is a gas, but above 8% it's a nightmare. Put a 25 tire on the front,
maybe with wider rims like mavic MA-3's, and at least it feels safer, even though it may not be.

Raptor said:

I've been descending the hills around here (including Park City) for decades and have never
crashed or hit something. Big Cottonwood Canyon has a couple sections of steepness immediately
followed by sharp turns. That can get tricky but if you use aero-braking and pulse your brakes you
can keep it manageable without too much worry.

Other than the image of Beloki in the back of my mind, I have no trouble with little or big
cottonwood canyon. Those roads are designed so that you could do 50MPH most of the way and still
handle it (though as you say there are a few turns where you have to watch out).

But the hill in Park City (it went up to some old mine, can't remember the name) was difficult for
me. Perhaps it was the combination of dusk, grade, and unfamiliarity with the hill, but it mostly
seemed to be the grade. I'd never really thought twice about going up a hill before, but after
trying to go down that one, I'll be more careful about going up in really steep areas (it reminded
me of when you hike in an area that's too steep and then try to go back down).

Shayne Wissler

Look for the Jobst Brandt FAQ "The Dark Art of Descending."

I was faced with your same Catcha-22 a couple weeks ago at Flagstaff, Boulder. If I braked enough to
slow down I would either skid out or overheat my sewup rims. If I didn't brake that hard, I would go
off the road. BUT! Back when I lived in Boulder, that descent was easy. So I'm thinking you could
probably master Park City if you had the right touch with the Dark Art.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * outyourbackdoor.comoutyourbackdoor.comOpen ↗ publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself
culture... ...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies... ...rare books on ski,
bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller about smalltown smuggling ... more radical novels
coming up! ...original downloadable music ... and articles galore! plus national "Off the Beaten
Path" travel forums! HOLY SMOKES!

"Jeff Potter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Look for the Jobst Brandt FAQ "The Dark Art of Descending."

I was faced with your same Catcha-22 a couple weeks ago at Flagstaff,

Boulder.

Quoted message said:

If I braked enough to slow down I would either skid out or overheat my

sewup

Quoted message said:

rims. If I didn't brake that hard, I would go off the road. BUT! Back when

I

Quoted message said:

lived in Boulder, that descent was easy. So I'm thinking you could probably master Park City if
you had the right touch with the Dark Art.

I've got the right touch with another Dark Art, thanks to you.

I've been experimenting with the Dark Art of Recumbenting. Not only that, but there's a twist -
recumbents are great because you can whack off while riding. That is a clear advantage over the
traditional position.

Now I can kill 5 birds with one stone.

Who do I owe all this glory to? Jeff Potter.

Thanks Jeff!

Kurgan Gringioni blissed out

45mph down a 7% hill while coasting or pedalling? I can only go 35, and that's in a tuck!

"Shayne Wissler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jZ%9b.373534$cF.111278@rwcrnsc53...

Quoted message said:

Is there any such thing?

I feel pretty comfortable descending a 7% grade. I usually try not to go

too

Quoted message said:

fast, about 45mph without using my brakes. But a while ago I went to Park City, and found myself
climbing a 10% grade. Which was fine until I

started

Quoted message said:

going down. The only way to keep a slow enough speed was to ride my

brakes,

Quoted message said:

or speed up and then stop. I came to a complete stop several times on the way down to let my rims
cool. There has to be a better way (besides riding

a

Quoted message said:

mountain bike up steep grades).

And, I find it difficult enough to slow down when my tires are full of

air.

Quoted message said:

If I get a flat making a descent is it pretty much over?

Shayne Wissler

"Jiyang Chen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

45mph down a 7% hill while coasting or pedalling? I can only go 35, and that's in a tuck!

Maybe it's the thin air in SLC...

Shayne Wissler

Jiyang Chen said:

45mph down a 7% hill while coasting or pedalling? I can only go 35, and that's in a tuck!

Dude, I hit 40 on the flat once with a nice hard tailwind. You need practice (and maybe some
power and leg speed). You should be able to hit 35 pedaling, then your tuck should let your
speed increase.

--
--
Lynn Wallace xmission.com~lawallOpen ↗ "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

Sergio SERVADIO <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Shayne Wissler said:

Is there any such thing?

No, there isn't. Any descent can be done taking too many risks for the rider, depending on skills
and on the circumstances. Not really a matter of grade.

However, there are extremely steep and winding roads where descending on a racing bike, v.s a Mtb
bike with thicker tyres and more braking power, is dangerous, no matter what, for anyone.

I am talking of paved roads, mind you; like a couple of those that descend the southern side of
Monte Grappa, in Northern Italy. If you go too fast you cannot control the bike; if you go slowly
enough your hands and arms get too tired from the braking action, and rims overheat to a
dangerous degree.

If your arms and hands are so tired, then you should stop and have some of the grappa the Monte is
named after. Then you can continue on your way and be in danger from drinking too much grappa.

NS

"Jiyang Chen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

45mph down a 7% hill while coasting or pedalling? I can only go 35, and that's in a tuck!

You should be able to reach 35 mph pedaling on the flats while attacking or sprinting. Pros can
exceed 40 mph.

You can hit 50 mph easy on a 7% descent if there are no turns requiring braking.

Maybe you're still too little?

Quoted message said:

"Shayne Wissler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jZ%9b.373534$cF.111278@rwcrnsc53...

Quoted message said:

Is there any such thing?

I feel pretty comfortable descending a 7% grade. I usually try not to go

too

Quoted message said:

fast, about 45mph without using my brakes. But a while ago I went to Park City, and found myself
climbing a 10% grade. Which was fine until I

started

Quoted message said:

going down. The only way to keep a slow enough speed was to ride my

brakes,

Quoted message said:

or speed up and then stop. I came to a complete stop several times on the way down to let my
rims cool. There has to be a better way (besides riding

a

Quoted message said:

mountain bike up steep grades).

Maybe try going down that grade with other riders and see how they do it.

Shayne Wissler said:

Is there any such thing?

I feel pretty comfortable descending a 7% grade. I usually try not to go too fast, about 45mph
without using my brakes. But a while ago I went to Park City, and found myself climbing a 10%
grade. Which was fine until I started going down. The only way to keep a slow enough speed was to
ride my brakes, or speed up and then stop. I came to a complete stop several times on the way down
to let my rims cool. There has to be a better way (besides riding a mountain bike up steep
grades).

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * outyourbackdoor.comoutyourbackdoor.comOpen ↗ publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself
culture... ...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies... ...rare books on ski,
bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller about smalltown smuggling ... more radical novels
coming up! ...original downloadable music ... and articles galore! plus national "Off the Beaten
Path" travel forums! HOLY SMOKES!

"Shayne Wissler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<jZ%9b.373534$cF.111278@rwcrnsc53>...

Quoted message said:

Is there any such thing?

I feel pretty comfortable descending a 7% grade. I usually try not to go too fast, about 45mph
without using my brakes. But a while ago I went to Park City, and found myself climbing a 10%
grade. Which was fine until I started going down. The only way to keep a slow enough speed was to
ride my brakes, or speed up and then stop. I came to a complete stop several times on the way down
to let my rims cool. There has to be a better way (besides riding a mountain bike up steep
grades).

And, I find it difficult enough to slow down when my tires are full of air. If I get a flat making
a descent is it pretty much over?

Shayne Wissler

Somebody should crosspost this whole thread to the alpine skiing newsgroup so they can see what
utter wusses y'all are.

-RJ

I mean coasting down a 7% hill. If I pedal i can go much faster. Maybe I weigh too little.

Falling on snow, even hard-packed snow, cannot compare to falling on asphalt. The amount of clothing
one wears while skiing (recreational) cushions impact. Cycling--single layer of shorts and
short-sleeved jersey. Falling while cycling hurts

"Jiyang Chen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Falling on snow, even hard-packed snow, cannot compare to falling on asphalt. The amount of
clothing one wears while skiing (recreational) cushions impact. Cycling--single layer of shorts
and short-sleeved

jersey.

Quoted message said:

Falling while cycling hurts

You are supposed to have sufficient skill to avoid falling.

"Nick Burns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Jiyang Chen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Falling on snow, even hard-packed snow, cannot compare to falling on asphalt. The amount of
clothing one wears while skiing (recreational) cushions impact. Cycling--single layer of shorts
and short-sleeved

jersey.

Quoted message said:

Falling while cycling hurts

You are supposed to have sufficient skill to avoid falling.

And when your tire blows? Are you saying Beloki didn't have sufficient skill?

Shayne Wissler

Nick Burns said:

"Jiyang Chen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Falling on snow, even hard-packed snow, cannot compare to falling on asphalt. The amount of
clothing one wears while skiing (recreational) cushions impact. Cycling--single layer of shorts
and short-sleeved jersey. Falling while cycling hurts

Quoted message said:

You are supposed to have sufficient skill to avoid falling.

I thought you accused Henry of giving nothing but smartass responses. Chen has a point, or maybe two
points. First, recreational skiers can afford to be bigger daredevils than cyclists. Second, biffing
while skiing and especially learning to ski is expected. You push your limits, go too far, have a
yard sale, and get up for more. That's how you learn where the limits are. Learning the limits of
safe descending or cornering on a bicycle is harder because the penalty stings like hell. If you
don't fall ten times your first day on a snowboard, you aren't trying hard enough. Fall once at
speed on a bicycle and you may be sleeping on only one side for weeks.

OTOH, skiers are more likely to blow out their knees.

Ben and that's why I'm a crappy descender

"Shayne Wissler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<Dj_ab.526041

Quoted message said:

And when your tire blows? Are you saying Beloki didn't have sufficient skill?

Apparently not. We've been over this, he locked up his rear wheel.

-Amit