Sad, sad story...

Bill Sornson said:

Absolutely tragic. Unquestionably criminal.

R.I.P.

(This link might be more direct:
http://www.idahostatesman.com/localnews/story/188765.html.)

Driving a pseudo military vehicle on the street hardly shows a concern
and respect for others.

How does one lose control on dry pavement, unless one is driving near of
beyond one's limits?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tom Sherman said:

Bill Sornson said:

Absolutely tragic. Unquestionably criminal.

R.I.P.

(This link might be more direct:
http://www.idahostatesman.com/localnews/story/188765.html.)

Driving a pseudo military vehicle on the street hardly shows a concern
and respect for others.

I'm not sure the late Ms. Howard would have been especially consoled by
being hit from behind by a compact car at speed.

Quoted message said:

How does one lose control on dry pavement, unless one is driving near of
beyond one's limits?

The details of this accident boggle the mind: "lost control of her
vehicle about 100' behind Howard," who was stopped in the bike lane at
an intersection; "tire marks on the sidewalk but no skid marks,
indicating the driver didn't use the brakes prior to the collision."

It's such an insane failure to control a vehicle that I don't know where
to start. It's a "lightning-strike" accident, inasmuch as I wouldn't be
likely to believe in such an improbable scenario if it hadn't happened.
I have no idea what was going on with the driver, but "petit mal
seizure" is about the most reasonable explanation I can come up with.
Witnesses claim she wasn't using her cell phone, and impairment wasn't
mentioned. The crash took place at 10 in the morning.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing

"Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Absolutely tragic. Unquestionably criminal.

R.I.P.

(This link might be more direct:
http://www.idahostatesman.com/localnews/story/188765.html.)

Bill S.

SOB!!!

Burr

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bill Sornson said:

Absolutely tragic. Unquestionably criminal.

R.I.P.

(This link might be more direct:
http://www.idahostatesman.com/localnews/story/188765.html.)

Driving a pseudo military vehicle on the street hardly shows a concern and
respect for others.

Well, that's not exactly true. The H3 is based on the Chevy Colorado pickup.
It has nothing at all in common with a true Humvee. It's like a Jeep
Liberty, just a yupmobile.

Quoted message said:

How does one lose control on dry pavement, unless one is driving near of
beyond one's limits?

Because it's hard to maintain control when one's cranium is firmly lodged in
one's rectum.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Gooserider said:

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bill Sornson said:

Absolutely tragic. Unquestionably criminal.

R.I.P.

(This link might be more direct:
http://www.idahostatesman.com/localnews/story/188765.html.)

Driving a pseudo military vehicle on the street hardly shows a concern and
respect for others.

Well, that's not exactly true. The H3 is based on the Chevy Colorado pickup.
It has nothing at all in common with a true Humvee. It's like a Jeep
Liberty, just a yupmobile.

Souped-up Civics, Lexuses, Maximas, Cavaliers, et al
are just as deadly.

They don't even have to be souped-up.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How does one lose control on dry pavement, unless one is driving near of
beyond one's limits?

Because it's hard to maintain control when one's cranium is firmly lodged in
one's rectum.

More to the point: a modern, motorized, horseless carriage
has just too much power & speed for the average human
being to be able to handle.

The current POV paradigm is stupid and wrong.

cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

"Gooserider" wrote: Well, that's not exactly true. The H3 is based on the
Chevy Colorado pickup.

Quoted message said:

It has nothing at all in common with a true Humvee.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Isn't that what "pseudo" means?

On topic, and not in response to Gooserider: When I see people driving
those pseudo-military vehicles I form a low opinion of them for several
reasons. 1.) The vehicle is impractical--as big as it is, it holds only
five people. 2.) It is unnecessarily large and heavy so it causes more
crowding uses more fuel and pollutes more. 3.) All the things that make me
like Prious owners are the things that weigh against Hummer owners.

But, we don't really know what caused this tragic accident. It could have
been driver error, or mechanical failure, or, as has been pointed out
already, a health problem. Let's save our comments about criminality until
there are supporting facts. Instant over-reaction results in loss of
credibility.

On Oct 22, 11:09 am, "Leo Lichtman" wrote [basically, concerning
Hummer H3, and similar, vehicles]:

Quoted message said:

On topic, and not in response to Gooserider: When I see people driving
those pseudo-military vehicles I form a low opinion of them for several
reasons. 1.) The vehicle is impractical--as big as it is, it holds only
five people. 2.) It is unnecessarily large and heavy so it causes more
crowding uses more fuel and pollutes more. 3.) All the things that make me
like Prious owners are the things that weigh against Hummer owners.

===> :-) <===

Neil
Prius driver

Leo Lichtman said:

3.) All the things that make me like Prious owners are the things
that weigh against Hummer owners.

Is "Prious" intended as a synthesis of "Prius" and "pious"? Because
if so, that's awesome and I think I'd like permission to use that
term myself from time to time. (And not in a sarcastic sense; I
hope to get a Prius myself some day, if Toyota is still making them
when my Integra eventually kicks the bucket.)

Quoted message said:

But, we don't really know what caused this tragic accident. It
could have been driver error, or mechanical failure, or, as has
been pointed out already, a health problem. Let's save our
comments about criminality until there are supporting facts.
Instant over-reaction results in loss of credibility.

Yeah, you're right, of course. But the fact that she was driving an
H3 in the first place makes me hesitant to give her the benefit of
the doubt -- as though my personal opinion of this woman actually
matters at all, anyway.

--
Mark Shroyer
http://markshroyer.com/

Tom Keats said:

Quoted message said:

Well, that's not exactly true. The H3 is based on the Chevy
Colorado pickup. It has nothing at all in common with a true
Humvee. It's like a Jeep Liberty, just a yupmobile.

Souped-up Civics, Lexuses, Maximas, Cavaliers, et al are just as
deadly.

They don't even have to be souped-up.

[...]

More to the point: a modern, motorized, horseless carriage has
just too much power & speed for the average human being to be able
to handle.

The current POV paradigm is stupid and wrong.

One of the reasons the power and speed of motor vehicles are so
deadly is inertia -- or kinetic energy, if you want to look at it
that way. Kinetic energy and inertia are increased with mass, and
have implications for braking distance and maneuverability. So
wouldn't it stand to reason that a heavier vehicle, such as an H2 or
H3, is more of a threat in city traffic at the same speed as a Civic
or Maxima?

According to Edmunds road tests, a stock Hummer H2 needs 163 feet to
come to a stop from 60 mph; my little, non-"souped-up" Integra can
do that in slightly over 100 feet. And this has real-life
consequences: a couple years ago I witnessed an accident just ahead
of me on I-75. I and the traffic all around me had to make an
emergency stop to avoid joining the pile-up, which most of us on the
road were able to do successfully; however, the driver of the H2
some 50 feet behind me, despite appearing to have hit the brakes as
quickly as I did, had to pull his vehicle off the road at around 40
mph to avoid rear-ending me.

So are you really arguing that the decreased maneuverability and
braking ability (not to mention visibility) of these stupidly
oversized vehicles do not have any safety implications, turning
dangerous drivers into even more dangerous ones? Or am I just
misreading you?

--
Mark Shroyer
http://markshroyer.com/

Gooserider said:

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bill Sornson said:

Absolutely tragic. Unquestionably criminal.

R.I.P.

(This link might be more direct:
http://www.idahostatesman.com/localnews/story/188765.html.)

Driving a pseudo military vehicle on the street hardly shows a concern and
respect for others.

Well, that's not exactly true. The H3 is based on the Chevy Colorado pickup.
It has nothing at all in common with a true Humvee. It's like a Jeep
Liberty, just a yupmobile.

The H3 takes its styling cues from the military Humvee, but is not an
actual military vehicle - appears to fit the definition of "pseudo
military", no?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

Tom Keats said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Gooserider said:

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bill Sornson wrote:
> Absolutely tragic. Unquestionably criminal.
>
> R.I.P.
>
> (This link might be more direct:
> http://www.idahostatesman.com/localnews/story/188765.html.)
Driving a pseudo military vehicle on the street hardly shows a concern and
respect for others.

Well, that's not exactly true. The H3 is based on the Chevy Colorado pickup.
It has nothing at all in common with a true Humvee. It's like a Jeep
Liberty, just a yupmobile.

Souped-up Civics, Lexuses, Maximas, Cavaliers, et al
are just as deadly.

They don't even have to be souped-up....

No, the vehicles with high and square front ends are more likely to
strike the cyclist's or pedestrian's head upon initial impact, and
furthermore are more likely to result in the hapless hominid being run
over by the vehicle. Adding steel "bull bars" makes a vehicle about
eight (8) times deadlier to a pedestrian in a collision according to one
study. In comparison, being hit by a car with a low sloping hood
increases survival chances significantly. Some manufactures (e.g. Honda)
have even designed their automobiles to attempt to do less harm to
pedestrians in collisions.

Here is likely the least pedestrian un-friendly motorized vehicle in a
collision: <http://www.spinopsys.com/wp-content/photos/twike.jpg>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

Leo Lichtman said:

"Gooserider" wrote: Well, that's not exactly true. The H3 is based on the
Chevy Colorado pickup.

Quoted message said:

It has nothing at all in common with a true Humvee.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Isn't that what "pseudo" means?

On topic, and not in response to Gooserider: When I see people driving
those pseudo-military vehicles I form a low opinion of them for several
reasons. 1.) The vehicle is impractical--as big as it is, it holds only
five people. 2.) It is unnecessarily large and heavy so it causes more
crowding uses more fuel and pollutes more. 3.) All the things that make me
like Prious owners are the things that weigh against Hummer owners.

To me the vehicle a person chooses says something about them. A pseudo
military vehicle says "I am a bad-ass and stay the Hell out of my way".

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

"Mark Shroyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Keats said:

Quoted message said:

Well, that's not exactly true. The H3 is based on the Chevy
Colorado pickup. It has nothing at all in common with a true
Humvee. It's like a Jeep Liberty, just a yupmobile.

Souped-up Civics, Lexuses, Maximas, Cavaliers, et al are just as
deadly.

They don't even have to be souped-up.

[...]

More to the point: a modern, motorized, horseless carriage has
just too much power & speed for the average human being to be able
to handle.

The current POV paradigm is stupid and wrong.

One of the reasons the power and speed of motor vehicles are so
deadly is inertia -- or kinetic energy, if you want to look at it
that way. Kinetic energy and inertia are increased with mass, and
have implications for braking distance and maneuverability. So
wouldn't it stand to reason that a heavier vehicle, such as an H2 or
H3, is more of a threat in city traffic at the same speed as a Civic
or Maxima?

F=MA

"Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The details of this accident boggle the mind: "lost control of her
vehicle about 100' behind Howard," who was stopped in the bike lane at
an intersection; "tire marks on the sidewalk but no skid marks,
indicating the driver didn't use the brakes prior to the collision."

Trust me when I say I'm not defending the driver in any way, shape or
form...

But please don't read too much into the statement about tire marks, as skid
marks no longer are a determinant of braking in almost all situations due to
the prevalence of anti-lock braking systems on the majority of newer
vehicles. This almost always eliminates skid marks because the wheels no
longer skid. Any accident investigator will confirm this.

Also, this is not to open the proverbial can of worms about the ABS vs.
no-ABS argument. That one has been overdone many times before.

Jonathan

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jonathan said:

"Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The details of this accident boggle the mind: "lost control of her
vehicle about 100' behind Howard," who was stopped in the bike lane at
an intersection; "tire marks on the sidewalk but no skid marks,
indicating the driver didn't use the brakes prior to the collision."

Trust me when I say I'm not defending the driver in any way, shape or
form...

But please don't read too much into the statement about tire marks, as skid
marks no longer are a determinant of braking in almost all situations due to
the prevalence of anti-lock braking systems on the majority of newer
vehicles. This almost always eliminates skid marks because the wheels no
longer skid. Any accident investigator will confirm this.

A good point. I'm virtually certain the H3 would have ABS stock.

Of course, it's still a really weird accident, but that suggests only
one (maybe two) obvious lapses in judgement by the driver.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gooserider said:

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bill Sornson wrote:
> Absolutely tragic. Unquestionably criminal.
>
> R.I.P.
>
> (This link might be more direct:
> http://www.idahostatesman.com/localnews/story/188765.html.)
Driving a pseudo military vehicle on the street hardly shows a concern
and respect for others.

Well, that's not exactly true. The H3 is based on the Chevy Colorado
pickup. It has nothing at all in common with a true Humvee. It's like a
Jeep Liberty, just a yupmobile.

The H3 takes its styling cues from the military Humvee, but is not an
actual military vehicle - appears to fit the definition of "pseudo
military", no?

Your comment that "Driving a pseudo military vehicle on the street hardly
shows a concern and respect for others." doesn't apply to the H3, because
it's not a huge vehicle like an H1 or H2. By your logic, would driving a
Jeep show the same lack of concern?

In article <[email hidden]>,

Mark Shroyer said:

So are you really arguing that the decreased maneuverability and
braking ability (not to mention visibility) of these stupidly
oversized vehicles do not have any safety implications, turning
dangerous drivers into even more dangerous ones? Or am I just
misreading you?

I'm saying street-racing cars (and their immature,
inexperienced drivers who think they know everything)
pose a greater danger to the public.

Hummer drivers generally don't hurtle their vehicles
so much.

It's not just about the vehicles -- it's also about
the drivers who hurtle them.

Porsche 944 & Boxter drivers are especially scary.

cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

On Oct 22, 8:09 pm, "Leo Lichtman" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Gooserider" wrote: Well, that's not exactly true. The H3 is based on the

Chevy Colorado pickup.> It has nothing at all in common with a true Humvee.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Isn't that what "pseudo" means?

On topic, and not in response to Gooserider: When I see people driving
those pseudo-military vehicles I form a low opinion of them for several
reasons. 1.) The vehicle is impractical--as big as it is, it holds only
five people. 2.) It is unnecessarily large and heavy so it causes more
crowding uses more fuel and pollutes more. 3.) All the things that make me
like Prious owners are the things that weigh against Hummer owners.

Just based on my observations, I'd say there is a big difference in
the usage patterns of H3's vs Prius's (Prii?). I'd bet the average
Prius is used mostly for long commutes with one person in the car.
H3's probably also spend most of their time with only one person too,
but I'd bet they also generally are not driven as far, and more often
than a Prius have more than one person aboard (kids) and more often
carry cargo (suitcases, [censored] from Ikea, etc). So if you look at fuel
spent per person/kilometer or fuel per cargo/km the H3 doesn't look so
bad. Sure there are other big(ger) cars that offer even more utility,
but I'm just saying that an H3 isn't as dumb as many would like to
think.

Reading a book by it's cover is something everyone does. I'm sure lots
of Prius owners and other people who think poorly of Hummer owners
wouldn't have such a dim view of someone driving along a VW Multivan.
If they saw such a car on the freeway headed to SF from San Jose, they
might even think highly of the driver. The funny thing is the Syncro
Multivan weighs more than an H3 and uses more gas.

Quoted message said:

But, we don't really know what caused this tragic accident. It could have
been driver error, or mechanical failure, or, as has been pointed out
already, a health problem. Let's save our comments about criminality until
there are supporting facts. Instant over-reaction results in loss of
credibility.

That's true.

Joseph

Tom Keats said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Mark Shroyer said:

So are you really arguing that the decreased maneuverability and
braking ability (not to mention visibility) of these stupidly
oversized vehicles do not have any safety implications, turning
dangerous drivers into even more dangerous ones? Or am I just
misreading you?

I'm saying street-racing cars (and their immature,
inexperienced drivers who think they know everything)
pose a greater danger to the public.

Hummer drivers generally don't hurtle their vehicles
so much.

Huh... it seems that we have quite different subspecies of Hummer
drivers in our respective locales. Fortunately Hummers are
relatively rare in my town, because the ones I do see are driven
(and parked, but that's another rant) as by complete idiots.

Quoted message said:

It's not just about the vehicles -- it's also about
the drivers who hurtle them.

Porsche 944 & Boxter drivers are especially scary.

I guess it must be a regional thing again. Ricer drivers,
certainly, but I can't say I've ever felt threatened by someone in a
Porsche. (And I have no idea what the underlying root of
correlation might be, but they always seem to use their turn signals
properly...)

Anyway, what you originally said was:

Quoted message said:

Souped-up Civics, Lexuses, Maximas, Cavaliers, et al
are just as deadly.

They don't even have to be souped-up.

You're correct that you can't take the driver out of the equation.
But idiotic, selfish drivers will be idiotic, selfish drivers no
matter what vehicle you put them in. And an idiotic, selfish driver
in a Civic, Lexus, Maxima, or Cavalier, while certainly dangerous,
holds much less potential for harm than one in a Hummer.

--
Mark Shroyer
http://markshroyer.com/