RvV

Tom Kunich said:

"Benjamin Weiner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Then Hoste handed Wesemann a gift by chasing down
Bruylandts's attack in the final km.

Quoted message said:

It was clear that Hoste either chaced Bruylandts down or
it was Dave's win. Wesseman knew that he simply could
not chace Dave and win the sprint. Steffen performed
like a genius.

Dumbass,

He did ride smartly, but in the finale, Wesemann was the
strongest and had the most to lose. That's why Hoste could
have waited a fraction of a second, requiring Wesemann to
chase. That's my point. Wese probably could have chased down
Bruylandts and still won anyway - after all Hoste had been
in the break all day.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not sure why (perhaps rather chase down a rival Belgian
team, damn the consequences?)

Quoted message said:

No, because he was on a different team - that's why their
jerseys were different colors. What is with this helping a
countryman thing? Would you give away a race to someone
from your home state if you might have a chance to win it
yourself?

Dumbass,

I don't really believe that scenario, and Jeff Jones has
refuted it, but I said the opposite of what you're replying
to. You see the Spanish teams lead the chase of each other's
riders all the time, for example. Rivalries are stronger
between teams from the same country, if only because
commentators will say things like "Lotto is having a good
year, Domo is a disappointment" etc.

Benjamin Weiner said:

You see the Spanish teams lead the chase of each other's
riders all the time, for example.

That is often because of the high value Spanish teams place
on team classification. I have heard them say it is as
important as the individual.

h squared <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Jeff Jones said:

"Benjamin Weiner" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:40710709$1@darkstar...

Quoted message said:

steve robertson <[email hidden]> wrote:

Then Hoste handed Wesemann a gift by chasing down
Bruylandts's attack in the final km. Not sure why
(perhaps rather chase down a rival Belgian team, damn
the consequences?) or why Wesemann didn't react to
Bruylandts right away (perhaps he sussed that Hoste
would go for rivalry reasons, or because Hoste had
been sitting on? Too complicated.) Chung, you really
need to write up that study of game theory in cycling.

I don't think it was rivalry. I think Hoste was feeling
"fresh" and was also relatively inexperienced in this
sort of a situation. Wesemann was smarter, although I
think he still would have won had he chased down
Bruylandts himself.

i'm a terrible observer, but it looked to me like hoste
did wait a bit for wessemann to chase, but maybe when
he didn't, hoste didn't want to just give up his chance
for a win. i don't see what bruylandts has to complain
about really.

You're still a better observer than Kunich.

Hoste was sitting on the whole way, not even soft pedalling
through. When Bruylandts pulled off Hoste actually pushed
Bruylandts ahead of him.

Quoted message said:

even though hoste spent all day in front and then chased
him down, hoste still beat him (unless he just gave up
trying after hoste chased him down, but then he needs a
spanking)

If you attack with a kilo to go and you can still sprint
when you're caught then you need to upgrade.

-Amit

"Ewoud Dronkert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Benjamin Weiner said:

You see the Spanish teams lead the chase of each other's
riders all the time, for example.

That is often because of the high value Spanish teams
place on team classification. I have heard them say it is
as important as the individual.

It is (or used to be) in the grand tours, 'cos the team that
wins gets an invite to next year's.

Back to the topic, there's no personal rivalry between
Hoste and Bruylandts, who were roomates when they were in
Domo. And Wesemann (who did hesitate first) had a number of
things in his favour: he was the quickest; he knew that
Hoste wasn't as experienced and had relatively fresh legs,
and would probably be happy to get second. It was smart
riding, as I think Wesemann was on the front when
Bruylandts attacked, so Hoste would realise that Wesemann
wouldn't react.

Summary: I don't think Hoste could have won, no matter what
he did. Only Bruylandts or Wesemann.

Bruylandts was hoping that Hoste would realise this (that he
could only get second) and not chase him down because then
there'd be a Belgian victory rather than a German one. But I
don't think Hoste had that in mind.

Jeff (there's way too much second guessing here, which
qualifies 100 percent for an RBR analysis)

Jeff Jones said:

Quoted message said:

high value Spanish teams place on team classification.

It is (or used to be) in the grand tours,

Right, that's what I meant.

Quoted message said:

'cos the team that wins gets an invite to next year's.

I think there's more to it than that; they place an
intrinsic value on team ranking that we (Dutch, Belgian, but
more general probably: non-Spanish...) just don't
understand.

Robert Chung said:

Benjamin Weiner said:

Chung, you really need to write up that study of game
theory in cycling.

Yeah, right. 'Cuz, but for one or two notable exceptions,
there's been a recent dearth of truly sphincter-tightening
posts on rbr.

Besides, I'm sorta stuck on the title. Here are two
candidates:
1. Selten, Harsanyi, and extreme payoffs: collusion and
reneging in the world of professional cycling.

Speaking of payoffs, was it just a bad translation or did
Paolo Bettini really say "I paid cash for that [the chase]
in the last 20km"?

"Benjamin Weiner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:4071923d$1@darkstar...

Quoted message said:

Tom Kunich said:

"Benjamin Weiner" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message

Quoted message said:

Then Hoste handed Wesemann a gift by chasing down
Bruylandts's attack in the final km.

Quoted message said:

It was clear that Hoste either chaced Bruylandts down or
it was Dave's

win.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Wesseman knew that he simply could not chace Dave and
win the sprint. Steffen performed like a genius.

He did ride smartly, but in the finale, Wesemann was the
strongest and had the most to lose. That's why Hoste could
have waited a fraction of a second, requiring Wesemann to
chase. That's my point. Wese probably could have chased
down Bruylandts and still won anyway - after all Hoste had
been in the break all day.

Ten more seconds and Wesemann couldn't have caught
Bruylandts. It was a big gamble on Steffen's part because if
he had gone first Hoste could have put that same effort into
a long sprint to the line and Wesemann would have been SOL.
When Hoste dug in and chased down Dave, he was putting in
some evil power to those pedals.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not sure why (perhaps rather chase down a rival
Belgian team, damn the consequences?)

Quoted message said:

No, because he was on a different team - that's why
their jerseys were different colors. What is with this
helping a countryman thing? Would

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

give away a race to someone from your home state if you
might have a

chance

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to win it yourself?

I don't really believe that scenario, and Jeff Jones has
refuted it, but I said the opposite of what you're
replying to. You see the Spanish teams lead the chase of
each other's riders all the time, for example. Rivalries
are stronger between teams from the same country, if only
because commentators will say things like "Lotto is having
a good year, Domo is a disappointment" etc.

I'll let our Belgian friends put in a comment here. But you
should remember what happened a couple of years ago when the
Belgian teams allowed their own personal vedettas between
rival Belgian teams to become more important than the races
they were in.

"Amit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

h squared <[email hidden]> wrote
in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

i'm a terrible observer, but it looked to me like hoste
did wait a bit for wessemann to chase, but maybe when he
didn't, hoste didn't want to just give up his chance for
a win. i don't see what bruylandts has to complain about
really.

You're still a better observer than Kunich.

Hoste was sitting on the whole way, not even soft
pedalling through. When Bruylandts pulled off Hoste
actually pushed Bruylandts ahead of him.

I have heard anyone here say anything about "the look" that
Steffen gave Hoste which clearly said, "I ain't chasing". Is
that because you're all so observant?

Ewoud Dronkert said:

strijkijzer.

i'm learning dutch right and left on this group lately.
my dictionary says flat iron, but is there more to it
than that?

( also, a belgian girl this morning on a hair styling and
makeup group taught me "ronde van frankrijk" for the tour de
france. she also said that even if you aren't into bike
racing, (like she isn't, boohoo), if you live in belgium you
know about the ronde van vlaanderen, same way as if you live
in the usa, you know about the superbowl. but she said that
soccer is still more popular than bike racing. )

heather

in article [email hidden], Amit at
[email hidden] wrote on 4/5/04 11:07 AM:

Quoted message said:

h squared <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Jeff Jones said:

"Benjamin Weiner" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:40710709$1@darkstar...
> steve robertson <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
> Then Hoste handed Wesemann a gift by chasing down
> Bruylandts's attack in the final km. Not sure why
> (perhaps rather chase down a rival Belgian team, damn
> the consequences?) or why Wesemann didn't react to
> Bruylandts right away (perhaps he sussed that Hoste
> would go for rivalry reasons, or because Hoste had been
> sitting on? Too complicated.) Chung, you really need to
> write up that study of game theory in cycling.
>
I don't think it was rivalry. I think Hoste was feeling
"fresh" and was also relatively inexperienced in this
sort of a situation. Wesemann was smarter, although I
think he still would have won had he chased down
Bruylandts himself.

i'm a terrible observer, but it looked to me like hoste
did wait a bit for wessemann to chase, but maybe when he
didn't, hoste didn't want to just give up his chance for
a win. i don't see what bruylandts has to complain about
really.

You're still a better observer than Kunich.

Hoste was sitting on the whole way, not even soft
pedalling through. When Bruylandts pulled off Hoste
actually pushed Bruylandts ahead of him.

Was that what the slap on the hand was about? I was
wondering.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

even though hoste spent all day in front and then chased
him down, hoste still beat him (unless he just gave up
trying after hoste chased him down, but then he needs a
spanking)

If you attack with a kilo to go and you can still sprint
when you're caught then you need to upgrade.

It takes something like 3 minutes to recharge one's ATP-PC
system, which provides about 3 seconds of explosive power...
so for that matter, if you can do this, you should probably
consider being a multimillion-dollar guinea pig for a doping
company...

-Sonarrat.

Stewart Fleming said:

Speaking of payoffs, was it just a bad translation or did
Paolo Bettini really say "I paid cash for that [the chase]
in the last 20km"?

Probably Italian -> Dutch -> English. It's an
expression in Dutch.

h squared said:

Quoted message said:

strijkijzer.

my dictionary says flat iron, but is there more to it
than that?

No that's it.
xs4all.nlstrijkijzers.mp3Open ↗

Quoted message said:

if you live in belgium you know about the ronde van
vlaanderen, same way as if you live in the usa, you know
about the superbowl. but she said that soccer is still
more popular than bike racing. )

Right. It's the same with speedskating and the
Elfstedentocht in Holland (oops, Friesland).

Ewoud Dronkert said:

Quoted message said:

No that's it.
xs4all.nlstrijkijzers.mp3Open ↗

alright, i'm returning my "learn dutch in 3 months" tapes
that i bought 7 years ago and demanding a full refund. all i
got from that (besides the proper names) was something about
"three people" and i'm not even sure of that. i heard
"strijkijzer" at the very end, but only because i knew to
listen for it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

if you live in belgium you know about the ronde van
vlaanderen, same way as if you live in the usa, you know
about the superbowl. but she said that soccer is still
more popular than bike racing. )

Right. It's the same with speedskating and the
Elfstedentocht in Holland (oops, Friesland).

i had never realized. strange how something like that can
happen, like suddenly you think, "oh, when they said it was
popular, they meant it was popular!! now i get it..."

heather have there been any elfstedentochts
(elfstedentochten?) lately?

Ewoud Dronkert said:

Stewart Fleming said:

Speaking of payoffs, was it just a bad translation or did
Paolo Bettini really say "I paid cash for that [the chase]
in the last 20km"?

Probably Italian -> Dutch -> English. It's an expression
in Dutch.

Probably translate better to something like " I paid in big
coin for that chase.." ie. I dug deep and worked my ass off,
and it hurt.

"h squared" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ewoud Dronkert said:

Quoted message said:

No that's it.
xs4all.nlstrijkijzers.mp3Open ↗

alright, i'm returning my "learn dutch in 3 months" tapes
that i bought 7 years ago and demanding a full refund. all
i got from that (besides the proper names) was something
about "three people" and i'm not even sure of that. i
heard "strijkijzer" at the very end, but only because i
knew to listen for it

Very very rough:

Spruch is a fast man and in front of him there are three men
riding: Tafi, Wauters (and who's the third again?)
Serpellini. To be honest, that's a shop full of strijkijzers
[flat irons]

Jeff (who often sprints like a strijkijzer)

h squared said:

alright, i'm returning my "learn dutch in 3 months" tapes
that i bought 7 years ago and demanding a full refund.

Haha! I doubt it makes much difference for you, but a lot of
Dutchmen (northern, from "above the Moerdijk"😉 would also
claim not to have understood a word. It's Flemish. But hey,
it's not the Flemish of Jef Braeckevelt, or Briek Schotte.
Try xs4all.nlmuur.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

have there been any elfstedentochts
(elfstedentochten?) lately?

No, last three were in 1985, 1986 and 1997. (it's tochten).

Quoted message said:

It's Flemish.

OK, I had a listen again, and Uytterhoeven really speaks
almost accent-free Dutch. So it's not that :/

Jeff Jones said:

Spruch is a fast man and in front of him there are three
men riding: Tafi, Wauters (and who's the third again?)
Serpellini. To be honest, that's a shop full of
strijkijzers [flat irons]

Jeff (who often sprints like a strijkijzer)

lol, at the "een winkel", i kept hearing "enrico"...my brain
sprints like a strijkijzer sometimes.

thank you jeff.

hh,

Sonarrat <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

in article
[email hidden], Amit at
[email hidden] wrote on 4/5/04 11:07 AM:

Quoted message said:

h squared <[email hidden]> wrote
in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Jeff Jones wrote:
>
> "Benjamin Weiner" <[email hidden]> wrote in
> message news:40710709$1@darkstar...
>> steve robertson <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>
>> Then Hoste handed Wesemann a gift by chasing down
>> Bruylandts's attack in the final km. Not sure why
>> (perhaps rather chase down a rival Belgian team, damn
>> the consequences?) or why Wesemann didn't react to
>> Bruylandts right away (perhaps he sussed that Hoste
>> would go for rivalry reasons, or because Hoste had
>> been sitting on? Too complicated.) Chung, you really
>> need to write up that study of game theory in
>> cycling.
>>
> I don't think it was rivalry. I think Hoste was
> feeling "fresh" and was also relatively inexperienced
> in this sort of a situation. Wesemann was smarter,
> although I think he still would have won had he chased
> down Bruylandts himself.

i'm a terrible observer, but it looked to me like hoste
did wait a bit for wessemann to chase, but maybe when
he didn't, hoste didn't want to just give up his chance
for a win. i don't see what bruylandts has to complain
about really.

You're still a better observer than Kunich.

Hoste was sitting on the whole way, not even soft
pedalling through. When Bruylandts pulled off Hoste
actually pushed Bruylandts ahead of him.

Was that what the slap on the hand was about? I was
wondering.

After Bruylandts pulled off, Hoste left a gap behind
Wesemann for him to move into rather than moving up behind
Wesemann. Hoste pushed Bruylandts ahead of him and they had
a little exchange. Hoste didn't do any work after the
Bosberg until Wesemann forced his hand when Bruylandts
attacked with a km to go.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

even though hoste spent all day in front and then
chased him down, hoste still beat him (unless he just
gave up trying after hoste chased him down, but then he
needs a spanking)

If you attack with a kilo to go and you can still sprint
when you're caught then you need to upgrade.

It takes something like 3 minutes to recharge one's ATP-PC
system, which provides about 3 seconds of explosive
power... so for that matter, if you can do this, you
should probably consider being a multimillion-dollar
guinea pig for a doping company...

I could do this against sufficiently lame competition.

-Amit

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Amit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

h squared <[email hidden]> wrote
in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

i'm a terrible observer, but it looked to me like
hoste did wait a bit for wessemann to chase, but maybe
when he didn't, hoste didn't want to just give up his
chance for a win. i don't see what bruylandts has to
complain about really.

You're still a better observer than Kunich.

Hoste was sitting on the whole way, not even soft
pedalling through. When Bruylandts pulled off Hoste
actually pushed Bruylandts ahead of him.

I have heard anyone here say anything about "the look"
that Steffen gave Hoste which clearly said, "I ain't
chasing". Is that because you're all so observant?

you typically make great leaps from viewing your tapes,
which are usually wrong, i don't know how you can say a look
clearly says anything. wesemann's lack of respose to
Bruylandts' attack is pretty clear.

go back and watch your tape again. the shot cuts away to an
aerial view when Bruylandts attacks from the back, Hoste
looks back when he closes the gap to Bruylandts.

??