RvV

Benjamin Weiner said:

You see the Spanish teams lead the chase of each other's
riders all the time, for example.

That is often because of the high value Spanish teams place on team
classification. I have heard them say it is as important as the
individual.

Tom Kunich said:

"Benjamin Weiner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Then Hoste handed Wesemann a gift by chasing down Bruylandts's
attack in the final km.

Quoted message said:

It was clear that Hoste either chaced Bruylandts down or it was Dave's win.
Wesseman knew that he simply could not chace Dave and win the sprint.
Steffen performed like a genius.

Dumbass,

He did ride smartly, but in the finale, Wesemann was the strongest
and had the most to lose. That's why Hoste could have waited a
fraction of a second, requiring Wesemann to chase. That's my point.
Wese probably could have chased down Bruylandts and still won anyway -
after all Hoste had been in the break all day.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not sure why (perhaps rather chase down
a rival Belgian team, damn the consequences?)

Quoted message said:

No, because he was on a different team - that's why their jerseys were
different colors. What is with this helping a countryman thing? Would you
give away a race to someone from your home state if you might have a chance
to win it yourself?

Dumbass,

I don't really believe that scenario, and Jeff Jones has refuted it,
but I said the opposite of what you're replying to. You see the Spanish
teams lead the chase of each other's riders all the time, for
example. Rivalries are stronger between teams from the same country,
if only because commentators will say things like "Lotto is having a
good year, Domo is a disappointment" etc.

h squared <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Jeff Jones said:

"Benjamin Weiner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:40710709$1@darkstar...

Quoted message said:

steve robertson <[email hidden]> wrote:

Then Hoste handed Wesemann a gift by chasing down Bruylandts's
attack in the final km. Not sure why (perhaps rather chase down
a rival Belgian team, damn the consequences?) or why Wesemann
didn't react to Bruylandts right away (perhaps he sussed that
Hoste would go for rivalry reasons, or because Hoste had been
sitting on? Too complicated.) Chung, you really need to write
up that study of game theory in cycling.

I don't think it was rivalry. I think Hoste was feeling "fresh" and was also
relatively inexperienced in this sort of a situation. Wesemann was smarter,
although I think he still would have won had he chased down Bruylandts
himself.

i'm a terrible observer, but it looked to me like hoste did wait a bit
for wessemann to chase, but maybe when he didn't, hoste didn't want to
just give up his chance for a win. i don't see what bruylandts has to
complain about really.

You're still a better observer than Kunich.

Hoste was sitting on the whole way, not even soft pedalling through.
When Bruylandts pulled off Hoste actually pushed Bruylandts ahead of
him.

Quoted message said:

even though hoste spent all day in front and then
chased him down, hoste still beat him (unless he just gave up trying
after hoste chased him down, but then he needs a spanking)

If you attack with a kilo to go and you can still sprint when you're
caught then you need to upgrade.

-Amit

"Ewoud Dronkert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Benjamin Weiner said:

You see the Spanish teams lead the chase of each other's
riders all the time, for example.

That is often because of the high value Spanish teams place on team
classification. I have heard them say it is as important as the
individual.

It is (or used to be) in the grand tours, 'cos the team that wins gets an
invite to next year's.

Back to the topic, there's no personal rivalry between Hoste and Bruylandts,
who were roomates when they were in Domo. And Wesemann (who did hesitate
first) had a number of things in his favour: he was the quickest; he knew
that Hoste wasn't as experienced and had relatively fresh legs, and would
probably be happy to get second. It was smart riding, as I think Wesemann
was on the front when Bruylandts attacked, so Hoste would realise that
Wesemann wouldn't react.

Summary: I don't think Hoste could have won, no matter what he did. Only
Bruylandts or Wesemann.

Bruylandts was hoping that Hoste would realise this (that he could only get
second) and not chase him down because then there'd be a Belgian victory
rather than a German one. But I don't think Hoste had that in mind.

Jeff (there's way too much second guessing here, which qualifies 100 percent
for an RBR analysis)

Jeff Jones said:

Quoted message said:

high value Spanish teams place on team classification.

It is (or used to be) in the grand tours,

Right, that's what I meant.

Quoted message said:

'cos the team that wins gets an invite to next year's.

I think there's more to it than that; they place an intrinsic value on
team ranking that we (Dutch, Belgian, but more general probably:
non-Spanish...) just don't understand.

Robert Chung said:

Benjamin Weiner said:

Chung, you really need to write
up that study of game theory in cycling.

Yeah, right. 'Cuz, but for one or two notable exceptions, there's been a
recent dearth of truly sphincter-tightening posts on rbr.

Besides, I'm sorta stuck on the title. Here are two candidates:
1. Selten, Harsanyi, and extreme payoffs: collusion and reneging in the
world of professional cycling.

Speaking of payoffs, was it just a bad translation or did Paolo Bettini
really say "I paid cash for that [the chase] in the last 20km"?

"Benjamin Weiner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:4071923d$1@darkstar...

Quoted message said:

Tom Kunich said:

"Benjamin Weiner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Then Hoste handed Wesemann a gift by chasing down Bruylandts's
attack in the final km.

Quoted message said:

It was clear that Hoste either chaced Bruylandts down or it was Dave's

win.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Wesseman knew that he simply could not chace Dave and win the sprint.
Steffen performed like a genius.

He did ride smartly, but in the finale, Wesemann was the strongest
and had the most to lose. That's why Hoste could have waited a
fraction of a second, requiring Wesemann to chase. That's my point.
Wese probably could have chased down Bruylandts and still won anyway -
after all Hoste had been in the break all day.

Ten more seconds and Wesemann couldn't have caught Bruylandts. It was a big
gamble on Steffen's part because if he had gone first Hoste could have put
that same effort into a long sprint to the line and Wesemann would have been
SOL. When Hoste dug in and chased down Dave, he was putting in some evil
power to those pedals.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not sure why (perhaps rather chase down
a rival Belgian team, damn the consequences?)

Quoted message said:

No, because he was on a different team - that's why their jerseys were
different colors. What is with this helping a countryman thing? Would

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

give away a race to someone from your home state if you might have a

chance

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to win it yourself?

I don't really believe that scenario, and Jeff Jones has refuted it,
but I said the opposite of what you're replying to. You see the Spanish
teams lead the chase of each other's riders all the time, for
example. Rivalries are stronger between teams from the same country,
if only because commentators will say things like "Lotto is having a
good year, Domo is a disappointment" etc.

I'll let our Belgian friends put in a comment here. But you should remember
what happened a couple of years ago when the Belgian teams allowed their own
personal vedettas between rival Belgian teams to become more important than
the races they were in.

"Amit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

h squared <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

i'm a terrible observer, but it looked to me like hoste did wait a bit
for wessemann to chase, but maybe when he didn't, hoste didn't want to
just give up his chance for a win. i don't see what bruylandts has to
complain about really.

You're still a better observer than Kunich.

Hoste was sitting on the whole way, not even soft pedalling through.
When Bruylandts pulled off Hoste actually pushed Bruylandts ahead of
him.

I have heard anyone here say anything about "the look" that Steffen gave
Hoste which clearly said, "I ain't chasing". Is that because you're all so
observant?

Ewoud Dronkert said:

strijkijzer.

i'm learning dutch right and left on this group lately. my dictionary
says flat iron, but is there more to it than that?

( also, a belgian girl this morning on a hair styling and makeup group
taught me "ronde van frankrijk" for the tour de france. she also said
that even if you aren't into bike racing, (like she isn't, boohoo), if
you live in belgium you know about the ronde van vlaanderen, same way as
if you live in the usa, you know about the superbowl. but she said that
soccer is still more popular than bike racing. )

heather

in article [email hidden], Amit at
[email hidden] wrote on 4/5/04 11:07 AM:

Quoted message said:

h squared <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Jeff Jones said:

"Benjamin Weiner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:40710709$1@darkstar...
> steve robertson <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
> Then Hoste handed Wesemann a gift by chasing down Bruylandts's
> attack in the final km. Not sure why (perhaps rather chase down
> a rival Belgian team, damn the consequences?) or why Wesemann
> didn't react to Bruylandts right away (perhaps he sussed that
> Hoste would go for rivalry reasons, or because Hoste had been
> sitting on? Too complicated.) Chung, you really need to write
> up that study of game theory in cycling.
>
I don't think it was rivalry. I think Hoste was feeling "fresh" and was also
relatively inexperienced in this sort of a situation. Wesemann was smarter,
although I think he still would have won had he chased down Bruylandts
himself.

i'm a terrible observer, but it looked to me like hoste did wait a bit
for wessemann to chase, but maybe when he didn't, hoste didn't want to
just give up his chance for a win. i don't see what bruylandts has to
complain about really.

You're still a better observer than Kunich.

Hoste was sitting on the whole way, not even soft pedalling through.
When Bruylandts pulled off Hoste actually pushed Bruylandts ahead of
him.

Was that what the slap on the hand was about? I was wondering.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

even though hoste spent all day in front and then
chased him down, hoste still beat him (unless he just gave up trying
after hoste chased him down, but then he needs a spanking)

If you attack with a kilo to go and you can still sprint when you're
caught then you need to upgrade.

It takes something like 3 minutes to recharge one's ATP-PC system, which
provides about 3 seconds of explosive power... so for that matter, if you
can do this, you should probably consider being a multimillion-dollar guinea
pig for a doping company...

-Sonarrat.

h squared said:

Quoted message said:

strijkijzer.

my dictionary says flat iron, but is there more to it than that?

No that's it. http://www.xs4all.nl/~ewoud/cycling/strijkijzers.mp3

Quoted message said:

if you live in belgium you know about the ronde van vlaanderen, same
way as if you live in the usa, you know about the superbowl. but she
said that soccer is still more popular than bike racing. )

Right. It's the same with speedskating and the Elfstedentocht in Holland
(oops, Friesland).

Stewart Fleming said:

Speaking of payoffs, was it just a bad translation or did Paolo Bettini
really say "I paid cash for that [the chase] in the last 20km"?

Probably Italian -> Dutch -> English. It's an expression in Dutch.

Ewoud Dronkert said:

Quoted message said:

No that's it. http://www.xs4all.nl/~ewoud/cycling/strijkijzers.mp3

alright, i'm returning my "learn dutch in 3 months" tapes that i bought
7 years ago and demanding a full refund. all i got from that (besides
the proper names) was something about "three people" and i'm not even
sure of that. i heard "strijkijzer" at the very end, but only because i
knew to listen for it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

if you live in belgium you know about the ronde van vlaanderen, same
way as if you live in the usa, you know about the superbowl. but she
said that soccer is still more popular than bike racing. )

Right. It's the same with speedskating and the Elfstedentocht in Holland
(oops, Friesland).

i had never realized. strange how something like that can happen, like
suddenly you think, "oh, when they said it was popular, they meant it
was popular!! now i get it..."

heather
have there been any elfstedentochts (elfstedentochten?) lately?

Ewoud Dronkert said:

Stewart Fleming said:

Speaking of payoffs, was it just a bad translation or did Paolo Bettini
really say "I paid cash for that [the chase] in the last 20km"?

Probably Italian -> Dutch -> English. It's an expression in Dutch.

Probably translate better to something like " I paid in big coin for
that chase.." ie. I dug deep and worked my ass off, and it hurt.

"h squared" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ewoud Dronkert said:

Quoted message said:

No that's it. http://www.xs4all.nl/~ewoud/cycling/strijkijzers.mp3

alright, i'm returning my "learn dutch in 3 months" tapes that i bought
7 years ago and demanding a full refund. all i got from that (besides
the proper names) was something about "three people" and i'm not even
sure of that. i heard "strijkijzer" at the very end, but only because i
knew to listen for it

Very very rough:

Spruch is a fast man and in front of him there are three men riding: Tafi,
Wauters (and who's the third again?) Serpellini. To be honest, that's a shop
full of strijkijzers [flat irons]

Jeff (who often sprints like a strijkijzer)

h squared said:

alright, i'm returning my "learn dutch in 3 months" tapes that i bought
7 years ago and demanding a full refund.

Haha! I doubt it makes much difference for you, but a lot of Dutchmen
(northern, from "above the Moerdijk"😉 would also claim not to have
understood a word. It's Flemish. But hey, it's not the Flemish of Jef
Braeckevelt, or Briek Schotte. Try
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ewoud/cycling/muur.html

Quoted message said:

have there been any elfstedentochts (elfstedentochten?) lately?

No, last three were in 1985, 1986 and 1997. (it's tochten).

Quoted message said:

It's Flemish.

OK, I had a listen again, and Uytterhoeven really speaks almost
accent-free Dutch. So it's not that :/

Jeff Jones said:

Spruch is a fast man and in front of him there are three men riding: Tafi,
Wauters (and who's the third again?) Serpellini. To be honest, that's a shop
full of strijkijzers [flat irons]

Jeff (who often sprints like a strijkijzer)

lol, at the "een winkel", i kept hearing "enrico"...my brain sprints
like a strijkijzer sometimes.

thank you jeff.

hh,

Sonarrat <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

in article [email hidden], Amit at
[email hidden] wrote on 4/5/04 11:07 AM:

Quoted message said:

h squared <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Jeff Jones wrote:
>
> "Benjamin Weiner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:40710709$1@darkstar...
>> steve robertson <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>
>> Then Hoste handed Wesemann a gift by chasing down Bruylandts's
>> attack in the final km. Not sure why (perhaps rather chase down
>> a rival Belgian team, damn the consequences?) or why Wesemann
>> didn't react to Bruylandts right away (perhaps he sussed that
>> Hoste would go for rivalry reasons, or because Hoste had been
>> sitting on? Too complicated.) Chung, you really need to write
>> up that study of game theory in cycling.
>>
> I don't think it was rivalry. I think Hoste was feeling "fresh" and was also
> relatively inexperienced in this sort of a situation. Wesemann was smarter,
> although I think he still would have won had he chased down Bruylandts
> himself.

i'm a terrible observer, but it looked to me like hoste did wait a bit
for wessemann to chase, but maybe when he didn't, hoste didn't want to
just give up his chance for a win. i don't see what bruylandts has to
complain about really.

You're still a better observer than Kunich.

Hoste was sitting on the whole way, not even soft pedalling through.
When Bruylandts pulled off Hoste actually pushed Bruylandts ahead of
him.

Was that what the slap on the hand was about? I was wondering.

After Bruylandts pulled off, Hoste left a gap behind Wesemann for him
to move into rather than moving up behind Wesemann. Hoste pushed
Bruylandts ahead of him and they had a little exchange. Hoste didn't
do any work after the Bosberg until Wesemann forced his hand when
Bruylandts attacked with a km to go.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

even though hoste spent all day in front and then
chased him down, hoste still beat him (unless he just gave up trying
after hoste chased him down, but then he needs a spanking)

If you attack with a kilo to go and you can still sprint when you're
caught then you need to upgrade.

It takes something like 3 minutes to recharge one's ATP-PC system, which
provides about 3 seconds of explosive power... so for that matter, if you
can do this, you should probably consider being a multimillion-dollar guinea
pig for a doping company...

I could do this against sufficiently lame competition.

-Amit

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Amit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

h squared <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

i'm a terrible observer, but it looked to me like hoste did wait a bit
for wessemann to chase, but maybe when he didn't, hoste didn't want to
just give up his chance for a win. i don't see what bruylandts has to
complain about really.

You're still a better observer than Kunich.

Hoste was sitting on the whole way, not even soft pedalling through.
When Bruylandts pulled off Hoste actually pushed Bruylandts ahead of
him.

I have heard anyone here say anything about "the look" that Steffen gave
Hoste which clearly said, "I ain't chasing". Is that because you're all so
observant?

you typically make great leaps from viewing your tapes, which are
usually wrong, i don't know how you can say a look clearly says
anything. wesemann's lack of respose to Bruylandts' attack is pretty
clear.

go back and watch your tape again. the shot cuts away to an aerial
view when Bruylandts attacks from the back, Hoste looks back when he
closes the gap to Bruylandts.

??