running in cold

MJuric said:

Buud said:

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:03:19 GMT, "Buud" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

What is "overbreathing?"

Taking in more oxygen than your body can cope with

Never heard it called "overbreathing" always "hyperventalation".

Quoted message said:

- contrary to popular belief and even medical opinion in the UK, there is a limit to the amount
of oxygen your body can cope with. Ask any biologist.

Seems obvious that taking in too much oxygen is a possibility.

You cannot take in "too much oxygen" (not unless you scubadiving or breathing high oxygen
content mixtures). A fit person's blood will normally be nearly fully saturated with dissolved
oxygen and oxygen bound to haemoglobin when it leaves the lungs. Breathing harder will not
increase it any higher.

Quoted message said:

Ask any anyone who used to breath a lot and nearly passed out before trying to make a new "breath
holding" record as a kid.

That's to do with dropping your blood CO2 levels too low, nothing to do with "too much oxygen". You
certainly can drive your CO2 off faster by hyperventilating. This can be dangerous as it can cause
blackouts and/or siezures.

Quoted message said:

I just have a hard time believing this as a "trigger" for ashtma.

Given how poorly we still seem to understand asthma, I wouldn't rule it out at an aggravating factor
for some people.

Tim

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"Tim Downie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

note about hyperventlating:

On a super-cold run last week (0F with a decent windchill, maybe minuse 14?) I started feeling a
strange shooting "pain" down both arms all the way to my fingers. felt like someone plucking a
guitar string. A doctor friend told me it could be a sign of hyperventilating. I was breathing
harder than I would have for that pace.

81538.news.uni-berlin.de>...

Quoted message said:

MJuric said:

Seems obvious that taking in too much oxygen is a possibility.

On;y Matt "the moron" Jurkit could think of something so idiotic.

Tim Downie said:

MJuric said:

Buud said:

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
> On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:03:19 GMT, "Buud" <[email hidden]> wrote:

> What is "overbreathing?"
Taking in more oxygen than your body can cope with

Never heard it called "overbreathing" always "hyperventalation".

Quoted message said:

- contrary to popular belief and even medical opinion in the UK, there is a limit to the amount
of oxygen your body can cope with. Ask any biologist.

Seems obvious that taking in too much oxygen is a possibility.

You cannot take in "too much oxygen" (not unless you scubadiving or breathing high oxygen
content mixtures). A fit person's blood will normally be nearly fully saturated with dissolved
oxygen and oxygen bound to haemoglobin when it leaves the lungs. Breathing harder will not
increase it any higher.

Interesting. Didn't know.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ask any anyone who used to breath a lot and nearly passed out before trying to make a new "breath
holding" record as a kid.

That's to do with dropping your blood CO2 levels too low, nothing to do with "too much oxygen". You
certainly can drive your CO2 off faster by hyperventilating. This can be dangerous as it can cause
blackouts and/or siezures.

So you can drive CO2 off but it is not replaced by O2? How does that work? Do blood cells
have different systems to carry CO2 and O2?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I just have a hard time believing this as a "trigger" for ashtma.

Given how poorly we still seem to understand asthma, I wouldn't rule it out at an aggravating
factor for some people.

I didn't mean to give the impression of ruling it out thats why I asked for a study
supporting his position. Frankly I just don't know. The site he posted was Q&A of one
individuels "experinace" with a certain breathing technique, not a study. I have a hard time
believing that CO2 is a trigger. In most cases, in my humble understanding, asthma is
triggered by a higher concentration of a substance, dust, pollen etc. not because there is
an abscence of a substance. This would lead me to believe that asthma would be triggered by
a higher concentration of CO2 not a lower level and not by hyperventalation. This would also
lead me to believe that Asthma could be triggered simply by holding ones breath. Which I
guess I've never heard but I'm sure possible. But then as you stated little may be known and
it possibly could be caused by many things as well as a combination of many.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

Tim

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On 14 Jan 2004 09:51:40 -0800, [email hidden] (Dave Carlsen)

Quoted message said:

81538.news.uni-berlin.de>...

Quoted message said:

MJuric said:

Seems obvious that taking in too much oxygen is a possibility.

On;y Matt "the moron" Jurkit could think of something so idiotic.

Heh now the post I was responding to suggested first so I'm not alone. Although you're
right, I'm still a moron.... But what the hell you can't spell. "On;y"?

~Matt

On 14 Jan 2004 07:07:02 -0800, [email hidden] (jim gravity)

Quoted message said:

"Tim Downie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

note about hyperventlating:

On a super-cold run last week (0F with a decent windchill, maybe minuse 14?) I started feeling a
strange shooting "pain" down both arms all the way to my fingers. felt like someone plucking a
guitar string. A doctor friend told me it could be a sign of hyperventilating. I was breathing
harder than I would have for that pace.

I think this is a fairly normal response to cold. I know of several instances were this has
happened to people, including myself, in early season tri's in cold water. Sticking your
head in 60 degree water simply "takes your breath away". By teh time you hit the 100yd
marked your panting, out of breath and looking fro the truck that just hit you.

~Matt

DOT, there is a reason for this. It is, I thought anyway, a common runner's remedy for side
stitches/cramps. They're ususally caused by the diaphgram muscles spasming, and breathing in/out
through the nose instead of the mouth does two things; 1. It forces the diaphgram muscles to more
fully contract and expand,and stop spasming. 2; it forces you to slow down, which also has a calming
effect on the diaphgram muscles.

Way back in high school my running coach used to tell us to solve a cramp by breathing through our
noses. Never knew why it worked till a few years ago. He probably didn't either.

On 14 Jan 2004 09:51:40 -0800, [email hidden] (Dave Carlsen)

Quoted message said:

81538.news.uni-berlin.de>...

Quoted message said:

MJuric said:

Seems obvious that taking in too much oxygen is a possibility.

On;y Matt "the moron" Jurkit could think of something so idiotic.

Oh on the last name thing... Since I've had a bit more experinace with it than you I'd though I'd
help save you some repeats and possible wasted brain waves.

Matt JerkIt - Mastibitory in nature Matt Jerk - As in your a Jerk Matt Jerk - As in you have Palsey
Matt Jurcic/Jurcick/Jerkic - As in I'm in 3rd grade and have nothing really important to say Matt
Jurich - As in I'm impersonating someone from the old country Matt Jursick - As in Your sick Matt
Jerkoff - See also Jerkit Matt Juradick - As in your a [censored] Matt Juranass - As in your an ass

endless Matt Jerky - As in your your dead meat Matt Jurcup - Similar to hiccup sometimes used to
represent vomiting. Matt Gerckick/Jercic/Gerick - As in here's your new credit card

Well there's a few to get you started. Of course I haven't begun to include the famous first last
name combo like.

Matty Jury - As in you always try to be the boss.

Or the added names that simply come from nowhere because they rhyme

Fatty Matty Jerk - As in I can make a ryhme.

~Matt

MJuric said:

So you can drive CO2 off but it is not replaced by O2? How does that work? Do blood cells have
different systems to carry CO2 and O2?

Well, yes as it happens. Blood has a finite maximum capacity to carry oxygen (in the same way that
you can't fill a full bucket any higher). CO2 is isn't bound to haemoglobin ( the oxygen carrying
protein in blood cells) but is instead dissolved in the plasma and chemically converted to
bicarbonate. One doesn't replace the other in blood cells as they have different transport
mechanisms.

Tim
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Tim Downie said:

MJuric said:

So you can drive CO2 off but it is not replaced by O2? How does that work? Do blood cells have
different systems to carry CO2 and O2?

Well, yes as it happens. Blood has a finite maximum capacity to carry oxygen (in the same way that
you can't fill a full bucket any higher). CO2 is isn't bound to haemoglobin ( the oxygen carrying
protein in blood cells) but is instead dissolved in the plasma and chemically converted to
bicarbonate. One doesn't replace the other in blood cells as they have different transport
mechanisms.

Tim

Interesting, now I think I fully understand why it can be so dangerous to "hyperventilate"
prior to trying a long distance under water swim. Let me see if I get this right. If a
person "hyperventilates" and "drives off" a major portion of ones CO2 then proceeds to swim
underwater, the "reaction" to breath is not initiated soon enough to provide enough oxygen
for proper function because the CO2 levels have not built up enough. However the O2 levels
have fallen to a point that won't allow proper functioning and the "swimmer" passes out and
drowns. Am I close? This never really made any sense to me before as I was under the
impression that CO2 and O2 were transfered under the same mechanism.

~Matt

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<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Interesting, now I think I fully understand why it can be so dangerous to "hyperventilate" prior
to trying a long distance under water swim. Let me see if I get this right. If a person
"hyperventilates" and "drives off" a major portion of ones CO2 then proceeds to swim underwater,
the "reaction" to breath is not initiated soon enough to provide enough oxygen for proper function
because the CO2 levels have not built up enough. However the O2 levels have fallen to a point that
won't allow proper functioning and the "swimmer" passes out and drowns. Am I close?

That's certainly the accepted theory of what happen in these circumstances. For most people in most
circumstances, it's the CO2 level in your blood that drives the urge to breath.

Having said that, there can be very few folk who haven't tried the hyperventilating and swimming
underwater trick. Most survive (myself included) ;-)

Tim
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[email hidden] (Dave Carlsen) wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

81538.news.uni-berlin.de>...

Quoted message said:

MJuric said:

Seems obvious that taking in too much oxygen is a possibility.

On;y Matt "the moron" Jurkit could think of something so idiotic.

I think you just topped him.

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Do you have any papers/Studies/articles on this? My understanding of asthma is that it is
primarily caused by an inflamation in the lungs. I've never heard anyone suffereing from CO2
induced asthma.

Do a search for Buteyko - a Russian Doctor. He discovered that LACK of CO2 (by fractions of a
percent) causes the breathing system to try to correct the problem by cutting down on breathing.
First your nose blocks, then you get wheezy etc.

[Very little support for his theories in the West with the notable exception of Australia. Indeed
there is a lot of hostility from the Asthma charities - usually a sign you are on the right track in
my view. Indeed it exposes the corruption of the charities that are funded by drug companies - the
Buteyko method requires no or substantially reduced drugs. ]

If you have exercise induced asthma it is well worth trying - I know of noone who has tried it who
has had no success. I know of cases where it works for other types of asthma although the success
rate seems to be less.

Quoted message said:

With this quote:

"On the other hand, there is no evidence that a person with stable asthma is constantly
overbreathing."

Indeed there is evidence - Buteyko did studies. You can do it yourself - watch any asthmatic - they
tend to gulp in air, the yawn a lot as well.

Quoted message said:

As I said. Nose breathing obviously works, but not for CO2 reasons. Breathing thru the nose
allows the air to warm longer and add moisture and causes less irritation to the lining of the
lungs. The same goes for covering the mouth, which allows a greater retention of moisture and
warmer air temps.

Your view is the view put out by the traditional Western medics but there is very little evidence
that this is a fundamental reason - it may assist once you have it but there is no evidence that
people living in warm dry climates have less asthma than those in wet and cold. But, if it works why
not use it.

However according to Buteyko it is more than that and he bases his approach on a rigorous approach
of breath control - by doing that, there are even greater benefits. The scientific evidence is clear
- as any biologist knows, CO2 aids the transfer of O2 to the muscles and as someone else noted, CO2
is what causes you to breathe in the first place. Overbreathing reduces
CO2. The easiest way to control breathing is to use the nose. However to get the maximum benefit
you need to do more than that.

"Tim Downie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You cannot take in "too much oxygen" (not unless you scubadiving or breathing high oxygen content
mixtures). A fit person's blood will

normally

Quoted message said:

be nearly fully saturated with dissolved oxygen and oxygen bound to haemoglobin when it leaves the
lungs. Breathing harder will not increase

it

Quoted message said:

any higher.

Ok - perhaps the earlier threads were imprecise in talking about taking in too much oxygen rather
than the CO2 reductions that are the key. However, your statement about breathing harder is not
right - this reduces CO2 and CO2 goes down then O2 goes up. It is a marginal effect but it is vital
for the stability of the breathing system.

Donovan Rebbechi said:

I think you're right. The reason the cold season is in fall/winter has to do with humidity (the
weather is more comfortable for the viruses).

No, I must disagree. The reason why the colder months seem to be the season for colds (even though I
see and treat plenty in summer) is that folks are couped up in closed closer quarters in the winter.
Less open windows, less fresh circulating air, less outdoor activities, more people packed together
indoors interacting with each other, sharing viruses. That's probably the entire story. Oh, and
don't forget kids in school. In the summer, school is out, kids are less densely packed together.
But September thru June, kids are packed together in classrooms and lunchrooms, which means a
dramatic rise in germ-filled kids who share with all the other kids, who then bring those germs and
cold illnesses home to their siblings and parents, again at close quarters because of the cold
weather and couped up conditions.

Quoted message said:

As far as prevention is concerned, a little hygeine goes a long way:

niaid.nih.govcold.htmOpen ↗

Handwashing is the simplest and most effective way to keep from getting rhinovirus colds. Not
touching the nose or eyes is another. Individuals with colds should always sneeze or cough into a
facial tissue, and promptly throw it away.

Right on, absolutely true. No better advice.

Quoted message said:

Although many people are convinced that a cold results from exposure to cold weather, or from
getting chilled or overheated, NIAID (National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases)
grantees have found that these conditions have little or no effect on the development or
severity of a cold.

Correct. Studies have been done exposing individuals to cold air showing that they have no higher
rates of viral head & chest colds than non-exposed individuals.

-- Joshua Steinberg MD, Syracuse, office deluged daily with Influenza, viral head & chest colds, and
generally snot-saturated suffering

Buud said:

However, there is a fair bit of evidence that breathing through the mouth makes you more likely to
overbreathe and thereby more likely to get asthma.

Huh? Overbreathing?

Quoted message said:

Certainly athletes who get exercise-induced asthma (whatever its cause) can reduce or even
eliminate it by breathing through the nose for as long as possible - at least while warming up.

Um, no. Breathing thru the nose reduces exercise induced bronchospasm (airway tightness, better term
than asthma) for two reasons.
1) inhaling thru nose warms the air more than thru the mouth; cold air = more airway tightness
2) exhaling thru nose provides more resistance to the outflow of air, which increases end-
expiratory pressure (sorry, technical term), which keeps potentially tight airways more open,
which makes exhaling more effective.

Quoted message said:

For those like me who usually get worse exercise-induced asthma in cold weather, nose breathing is
essential during training as well. Once CO2 levels build up then mouth breathing is possible with
no adverse effects.

I agree with your first statement, nosebreathing may help exercise induced bronchospasm. However, I
don't know what CO2 levels have to do with it. Plenty of better reasons listed above.

By the way, I gotta remark as a runner and not as a doctor, if you are breathing through your nose
while running, you aren't running. If you aren't hungry for the larger amount of oxygen that only a
vigorous wide-open mouth inspiration can provide, I doubt an athlete is working very hard. I'm no
superathlete, but I'm no slouch. I can run a dozen or two paces breathing thru my nose, but I won't
go very far for very long without breathing thru my mouth.

Best regards, -- Josh Steinberg MD, Syracuse (exercise induced bronchospasm person myself)

Buud said:

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:03:19 GMT, "Buud" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

What is "overbreathing?"

Taking in more oxygen than your body can cope with - contrary to popular belief and even medical
opinion in the UK, there is a limit to the amount of oxygen your body can cope with. Ask any
biologist.

WHAT??? Ok, I'm a biologist and a physician.

The human body cannot physically take in "more oxygen than it can handle". Not possible. Any breath
instantly saturates the blood running through the lungs. Not a drop more oxygen can be forced in,
and not a drop less can be brought in to the blood, either (unless the blood is poisoned by carbon
monoxide, the lungs are impaired from gas exchange by heart failure, infection, etc.). With every
breath at rest and while exercising, you instantly rocket the oxygen content of the blood passing
through the lungs from about pO2 of 40 mm Hg to 100 mm Hg (millimeters of partial pressure). You
cannot will yourself to do any more or any less.

-- Josh Steinberg MD, Syracuse

Buud said:

Yes - in your blood - if you overbreathe, then you increase O2 and reduce
CO2. Once CO2 gets too low your body responds by trying to cut the flow of O2 - hence why
asthmatics noses block and ultimately your alveoli do too. You actually need CO2 to survive
- for example it is CO2 levels that control breathing rates. Asthmatics tend to live with
too low CO2 levels because

You are mixing up two completely different physiological phenomena.

You can breath as deeply and quickly as you want, and your oxygen level will not change a bit,
always pO2 appx 100 mm in arterial blood, period.

However, CO2 discharge from the body via breathing is proportional to how much you breathe. Thus,
if you breath deeply and quickly, moving much more air in and out of the lungs than usual, you
will "blow off" much more CO2 from your body than usual. Oxygen level is unaffected. When you
reduce the CO2 in your blood, the acid-base balance is thrown off. Lose CO2, pH in blood goes up
(more base, blood becomes alkalotic). pH disturbance is what makes you feel woozy and dizzy when
you blow off too much CO2 via "hyperventilating". If necessary, your body vigorously defends a
proper acid-base balance by you passing out so that your mental will to hyperventilate stops, you
return to normal breathing rate and volume, and the pH balance is restored. Again, this has
nothing to do with oxygen.

And nothing to do with asthma. Asthmatics do not live with low CO2 levels, they live with normal CO2
levels. If they are having an attack and breathing poorly, they move less air, therefore discharge
less CO2, and thus CO2 rises. (then they get less oxygen, their metabolism becomes anaerobic, they
make more lactic acid, and their HCO3 is consumed to buffer the acid, thus CO2 levels eventually
fall; point is, there is no predictable CO2 change in asthmatics, and when well controlled, CO2 is
perfectly normal.)

-- Josh Steinberg MD, Syracuse

Tim Downie said:

Quoted message said:

So you can drive CO2 off but it is not replaced by O2? How does that work? Do blood cells have
different systems to carry CO2 and O2?

Well, yes as it happens. Blood has a finite maximum capacity to carry oxygen (in the same way that
you can't fill a full bucket any higher). CO2 is isn't bound to haemoglobin ( the oxygen carrying
protein in blood cells) but is instead dissolved in the plasma and chemically converted to
bicarbonate. One doesn't replace the other in blood cells as they have different transport
mechanisms.

Tim

Tim is perfectly correct, so I won't add a bit. -- Josh

ChronoFish said:

I have exercise/allergy induced asthma and the cold defiantly makes a difference. However I have
not had to use my inhaler once since being on advair.

That's because of a subtlety you don't know. Advair is a combination drug -- a steroid for
suppression of asthma inflammation and reactivity of airways to prevent tightening, and a long-
acting form of your rescue inhaler medicine called Salmeterol. Think of Salmeterol as a 12 hour-long
version of your old reliable rescue puffer medicine, Albuterol, which usually lasts but 4 hours. So
don't think that your Advair medicine is so wonderful because it eliminates your reliance on an
airway relaxing medicine, because in fact it contains one.

However, what is really important is not whether you are taking a bronchodilator (like your rescue
puffer, Albuterol, or the long acting Salmeterol), but rather whether your symptoms are so well
controlled that you don't need your rescue puffer. And that's what it sounds like you've achieved --
excellent symptom, crisis-free control. Good for you! Hope your success continues.

Best regards, -- Josh Steinberg MD, Syracuse