Running in a swimming pool

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi. We're researching what the optimum specs would be for a swimming pool designed for running
(indoors for our gym) - to suit people of various heights - anyone got any ideas or suggest any
links? Thinking is that this would be an ideal way to recruit upper body muscles to improve
aerobic effect. Any help or ideas appreciated. Thanks

So it's not really a "swiming pool designed for running" that you want. You need a running pool
designed for running. Horses use a treadmill submersed in water I believe. Such may not be in your
budget, but possibly there's some useful knowledge in researching that concept. Other than injury
prevention and recovery I doubt the aerobic effect will exceed what can be done on the track and
road since development is exercise specific.

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi. We're researching what the optimum specs would be for a swimming pool designed for running
(indoors for our gym) - to suit people of various heights - anyone got any ideas or suggest any
links? Thinking is that this would be an ideal way to recruit upper body muscles to improve
aerobic effect. Any help or ideas appreciated. Thanks

Hi, I'm researching people who swim on the streets. Any help would be appreciated.

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 06:51:28 GMT, "David" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Hi. We're researching what the optimum specs would be for a swimming pool designed for running
(indoors for our gym) - to suit people of various heights - anyone got any ideas or suggest
any links?

You'll need velcro on the bottom of the pool and also on the bottoms of the joggers' shoes. An air
line or scuba tank would also be helpful, as most joggers can't hold their breath for the length
of a pool.

Quoted message said:

Thinking is that this would be an ideal way to recruit upper body muscles to improve aerobic
effect. Any help or ideas appreciated. Thanks

The real problem I see is joggers getting tangled in each others air lines.

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi. We're researching what the optimum specs would be for a swimming pool
designed for running (indoors for our gym) - to suit people of various
heights - anyone got any ideas or suggest any links? Thinking is that

this

Quoted message said:

would be an ideal way to recruit upper body muscles to improve aerobic effect. Any help or ideas
appreciated. Thanks

Go back to your original objective: to recruit upper body muscles.

For example, a treadmill with arm controls that allow the arms to take part. Perhaps an elliptical
machine? Or redesigned nordic ski simulator. For injury rehab, a treadmill with a lift harness that
effectively reduces body weight. Even a very little lift would make running much easier. The arms
could provide this lift either as a muscle force or through some cyclic work. A simple example might
be a recumbent bicycle with arm AND leg propulsion.

One could imagine a treadmill with speed regulated by the energy output of arm motion. How about an
automobile regulated by a treadmill built in place of the traditional driver's seat? Or a bicycle
pedal arrangement. You could bicycle from coast to coast on superhighways!

"MaxAluminum" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hi. We're researching what the optimum specs would be for a swimming

pool

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

designed for running (indoors for our gym) - to suit people of

various

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

heights - anyone got any ideas or suggest any links? Thinking is that

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

would be an ideal way to recruit upper body muscles to improve aerobic effect. Any help or
ideas appreciated. Thanks

So it's not really a "swiming pool designed for running" that you want. You need a running pool
designed for running. Horses use a treadmill submersed in water I believe. Such may not be in your
budget, but possibly there's some useful knowledge in researching that concept. Other than injury
prevention and recovery I doubt the aerobic effect will exceed what can be done on the track and
road since development is exercise specific.

Thanks - I guess am looking for the cardio benefits of running without the 'impact' on knees etc. So
was thinking of a 'lap pool' sort of thing that would have different levels for varying height
people. I thought that being in water you can run (water around chest high) and do a 'push' and
'pull' movement with your arms so the chest and back muscles get some play.So would spread the load
around the body more so than road running and without the impact problems. The 'push/pull' arms
movement would be using that 'glove' idea that gives more resistance. Can't see why that wouldn't
work well but any feedback appreciated.

"Ted Bundy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hi. We're researching what the optimum specs would be for a swimming

pool

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

designed for running (indoors for our gym) - to suit people of

various

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

heights - anyone got any ideas or suggest any links? Thinking is that

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

would be an ideal way to recruit upper body muscles to improve aerobic effect. Any help or
ideas appreciated. Thanks

Hi, I'm researching people who swim on the streets. Any help would be

appreciated.

try to think this through, if swimming in principle worked better than running that would be a fair
question. in other words you could 'swim in the streets' - that is how they train swimmers in the
gym - i.e. using a swim bench and pulleys - I'm talking about running in water to enhance aerobic
effect and also to minimize joint injury

On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 23:11:58 GMT, "David" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Ted Bundy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hi. We're researching what the optimum specs would be for a swimming

pool

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

designed for running (indoors for our gym) - to suit people of

various

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

heights - anyone got any ideas or suggest any links? Thinking is that

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

would be an ideal way to recruit upper body muscles to improve aerobic effect. Any help or
ideas appreciated. Thanks

Hi, I'm researching people who swim on the streets. Any help would be

appreciated.

try to think this through, if swimming in principle worked better than running that would be a fair
question.

Not sure what you mean here. Swimming works wonders if your trying to be a better swimmer. But does
little if your trying to be a better running. It also can rival running as far as a cardio workout,
although it takes considerable more training to reach that point.

Quoted message said:

in other words you could 'swim in the streets' - that is how they train swimmers in the gym - i.e.
using a swim bench and pulleys

This is done for strength reasons not cardio reasons. Swimming is more "power" dependant than is
running so weight training in swimming is slightly more prevalant than in running.

Quoted message said:

- I'm talking about running in water to enhance aerobic effect and also to minimize joint injury

Can't argue you're point, as I've done no research but I suspect your thinking is incorrect.
In my experiance it is much more difficult to get an "enhanced cardio effect" (Measured by
HR only) by pool running. The pool running I do is tethered (Google Aqua jogging, deep water
running). In this case I can move my legs and arms fairly fast without worring about having
to move my torso against the resistance of water. If I had to "drag" my body through the
water I would have to move much slower or take much smaller steps but use much higher force
in order to overcome the water resistance. Although I suspect this wouls be good for
building strength, I also suspect it wouls not be so good for cardio. It wouls be more
similar to weight lifting than running. But of course this is entirely speculation on my
part, but something I would definately check out before building a pool.

~Matt

David said:

Thanks - I guess am looking for the cardio benefits of running without the 'impact' on knees etc.
So was thinking of a 'lap pool' sort of thing that would have different levels for varying height
people. I thought that being in water you can run (water around chest high)

If I understand you correctly, you're looking at normal running with feet on the pool bottom using
water as resistance (simulates real running with resistance), rather than deep water running without
feet touching (works legs and arms, but don't get the lower limb action of real running).

For curiosity, have you actually tried it? You may have and have had different results than myself,
but here's my experience.

After I swim laps, I'll usually do some deep water running (don't touch bottom) for a few minutes
(before boredom overtakes me) and some shallow water running or drills (feet on bottom). Our pool
slopes from shallow end to deep end, so depth goes from about waist to however deep I want, usually
reverse direction (lap lanes) about chest height. My experience at the shallowest portion is the
water doesn't add that much resistance to the workout to provide much benefit nor to the landing to
prevent injury - almost a lose-lose situation. I don't know if there's a different proprioceptive
feeling that one needs to develop, but bare feet on pool tiles are hard, unless you get it right,
which I haven't.

When I'm in deeper water (say, chest deep), there's enough buoyancy that the "forward" propulsion
tends to have a noticeable upward component, so my running becomes more of a leaping, again not what
I'm looking for. But the footfall doesn't hurt.

There may be an ideal depth in between (and maybe that's your question), but my gut feeling is that
by the time the buoyancy of the water reduces impact significantly, you're getting too much buoyancy
to mimic the forward propsulsion of running - at least with tiled pool bottoms. Now if you had sand
or something softer like treadmill-like belt or tight trampoline or whatever, then you may be able
to avoid the hard bottom issue and benefit from the water resistance.

Just some thoughts.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Dork.

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<2P1Jb.73395$aT.53416@news-
server.bigpond.net.au>...

Quoted message said:

"Ted Bundy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hi. We're researching what the optimum specs would be for a swimming

pool

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

designed for running (indoors for our gym) - to suit people of

various

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

heights - anyone got any ideas or suggest any links? Thinking is that

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

would be an ideal way to recruit upper body muscles to improve aerobic effect. Any help or
ideas appreciated. Thanks

Hi, I'm researching people who swim on the streets. Any help would be

appreciated.

try to think this through, if swimming in principle worked better than running that would be a
fair question. in other words you could 'swim in the streets' - that is how they train swimmers in
the gym - i.e. using a swim bench and pulleys - I'm talking about running in water to enhance
aerobic effect and also to minimize joint injury

MJuric said:

David said:

- I'm talking about running in water to enhance aerobic effect and also to minimize joint injury

Can't argue you're point, as I've done no research but I suspect your thinking is incorrect.
In my experiance it is much more difficult to get an "enhanced cardio effect" (Measured by
HR only) by pool running. The pool running I do is tethered (Google Aqua jogging, deep water
running). In this case I can move my legs and arms fairly fast without worring about having
to move my torso against the resistance of water. If I had to "drag" my body through the
water I would have to move much slower or take much smaller steps but use much higher force
in order to overcome the water resistance. Although I suspect this wouls be good for
building strength, I also suspect it wouls not be so good for cardio. It wouls be more
similar to weight lifting than running. But of course this is entirely speculation on my
part, but something I would definately check out before building a pool.

I agree / disagree partly. My thoughts are if you were stronger, you would probably get a better
cardio effect from deep water running through the pool than you would now. This is why strength
comes before power in base building - need strength first, then rapid application of it. Here's a
couple of my data points.

If I'm running or xc skiing flat with little resistance, I have a really hard time getting my heart
rate past LT (granted, I don't usually do speed work since I have to be able to run the hills before
I can do speed work on them). If I'm running (or my best imitation of it) uphill on 10-30% slopes, I
can get my hr up pretty easily, maybe not more than 5-10 min on the steeper ones. (I can also walk
those slopes and steeper and get hr to aerobic speed (below LT).) With steeper still (40%), I don't
have the strength to run (rapid movement in pool while tethered) them, but I can walk them (slow
movement through pool) (not sure of hr since the footing is too tricky there to pay attention).
Mountain runners (stronger, better trained) run those suckers, and I suspect their hr is up.

With xc skiing (I'm not a good skiier), on flat, broken trail, my hr may be about 10 bpm below an
easy run effort. With about 6-8 inches of snow (one set of tracks in front, so having to break trail
somewhat = some, but not excessive, resistance), I can easily get to easy running hr and with a
little effort and concentration maintain an aerobic speed effort. Now with 18 inches of snow and no
tracks, I don't have the strength to go through at much more than a slog - and hr doesn't go up very
far, like lifting. I would expect a more experienced or stronger skiier could get through that and
get an aerobic workout out of it.

Just my experiments of one. Others will differ.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

MJuric said:

Can't argue you're point, as I've done no research but I suspect your thinking is incorrect.
In my experiance it is much more difficult to get an "enhanced cardio effect" (Measured by
HR only) by pool running. The pool running I do is tethered (Google Aqua jogging, deep water
running). In this case I can move my legs and arms fairly fast without worring about having
to move my torso against the resistance of water. If I had to "drag" my body through the
water I would have to move much slower or take much smaller steps but use much higher force
in order to overcome the water resistance. Although I suspect this wouls be good for
building strength, I also suspect it wouls not be so good for cardio. It wouls be more
similar to weight lifting than running.

I'll partially agree/disagee. If one uses pool running for cross training the effects seem very
positive. A local HS coach that I play with has his runners in the pool at least once a week and
claims the kids excel and the injury rates are way down. We all know that most HS kids do little
to no training off season. I admit I have not been nor intend to swim in a urine/clorine
infested pool. 🙂

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi. We're researching what the optimum specs would be for a swimming pool designed for running
(indoors for our gym) - to suit people of various heights - anyone got any ideas or suggest any
links? Thinking is that this would be an ideal way to recruit upper body muscles to improve
aerobic effect. Any help or ideas appreciated. Thanks

As an ex-swimmer, I have a few thoughts on this.

Running on a sandy bottomed pool is tough, when the water comes up only to your waist or so. It
feels like you are running in pudding. It gets noticeably easier once you get to about your pectoral
muscles. So the optimum height where you balance resistance and buyonancy is probably somewhere
between the two.

If you are going for short, intense muscle development: To do this right, I would actually shoot for
having folks running completely underwater (i.e. with dive gear/snorkels or the equivalent). When
you swim completely under the water, the workout is far more intense than swimming on the surface.
It is probably one of the few times swimmers engage all of their muscles (good swimmers usually use
mostly their trunk muscles to move through the water). The same would likely be true for running.

For long, cardio training: Otherwise, one of those small current generating "mini-lap" pool that can
easily be filled to different depths might work out (or a pool with an appropriate treadmill).
Initially, you can experiment yourself to see what feels right to you (and maybe look over some of
the equine training done), then try to fill the pool to a certain height ratio for any person.

Just a few thoughts.

~becca

On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 10:28:50 -0500, "Bill" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:QluIb.71268$aT.45723@news-
server.bigpond.net.au...

Quoted message said:

Hi. We're researching what the optimum specs would be for a swimming pool
designed for running (indoors for our gym) - to suit people of various
heights - anyone got any ideas or suggest any links? Thinking is that

this

Quoted message said:

would be an ideal way to recruit upper body muscles to improve aerobic effect. Any help or ideas
appreciated. Thanks

Go back to your original objective: to recruit upper body muscles.

For example, a treadmill with arm controls that allow the arms to take part. Perhaps an elliptical
machine? Or redesigned nordic ski simulator. For injury rehab, a treadmill with a lift harness that
effectively reduces body weight. Even a very little lift would make running much easier. The arms
could provide this lift either as a muscle force or through some cyclic work. A simple example
might be a recumbent bicycle with arm AND leg propulsion.

One could imagine a treadmill with speed regulated by the energy output of arm motion. How about an
automobile regulated by a treadmill built in place of the traditional driver's seat? Or a bicycle
pedal arrangement. You could bicycle from coast to coast on superhighways!

Or we could really simplify things and simply swim. For a more enhanced aerobic activity try
a six beat kick with zoomers on for a few hundred yards, not that I've ever pulled that off,
but I hear it's killer.

~Matt

"Bill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:QluIb.71268$aT.45723@news-
server.bigpond.net.au...

Quoted message said:

Hi. We're researching what the optimum specs would be for a swimming

pool

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

designed for running (indoors for our gym) - to suit people of

various

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

heights - anyone got any ideas or suggest any links? Thinking is that

this

Quoted message said:

would be an ideal way to recruit upper body muscles to improve aerobic effect. Any help or
ideas appreciated. Thanks

Go back to your original objective: to recruit upper body muscles.

For example, a treadmill with arm controls that allow the arms to take

part.

Quoted message said:

Perhaps an elliptical machine?

tried both items - the treadmill would not solve the impact issue. The elliptical to me is an
unnatural movement which stresses (over time) the lower back. Also there is not much 'stretch' for
the upper body i.e. it is not a so much a chest and back workout as works the smaller muscles in the
triceps and biceps.

Quoted message said:

Or redesigned nordic ski simulator. -

that kind or product works more your hip flexors like the discredited air walkers - I am looking for
an exercise that still hits the leg muscles quads, hams calves as you do with road running

For

Quoted message said:

injury rehab, a treadmill with a lift harness that effectively reduces

body

Quoted message said:

weight. Even a very little lift would make running much easier.

true but this would be expensive and also we want a number of people to use this pool plus still
looking for upper body work as well to get into the overall exercise

The arms

Quoted message said:

could provide this lift either as a muscle force or through some cyclic work. A simple example
might be a recumbent bicycle with arm AND leg propulsion.

Now you're talking - I like that!

Quoted message said:

One could imagine a treadmill with speed regulated by the energy output of arm motion. How about
an automobile regulated by a treadmill built in

place

Quoted message said:

of the traditional driver's seat? Or a bicycle pedal arrangement. You could bicycle from coast to
coast on superhighways!

You know there are some good ideas there!

"Becca" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hi. We're researching what the optimum specs would be for a swimming

pool

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

designed for running (indoors for our gym) - to suit people of

various

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

heights - anyone got any ideas or suggest any links? Thinking is that

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

would be an ideal way to recruit upper body muscles to improve aerobic effect. Any help or
ideas appreciated. Thanks

As an ex-swimmer, I have a few thoughts on this.

Running on a sandy bottomed pool is tough, when the water comes up only to your waist or so. It
feels like you are running in pudding. It gets noticeably easier once you get to about your
pectoral muscles. So the optimum height where you balance resistance and buyonancy is probably
somewhere between the two.

yes you are right although the water needs to be high enough to be able to do upper push/pull
while running

Quoted message said:

If you are going for short, intense muscle development: To do this right, I would actually shoot
for having folks running completely underwater (i.e. with dive gear/snorkels or the equivalent).

When you swim completely under the water, the workout is

Quoted message said:

far more intense than swimming on the surface. It is probably one of the few times swimmers engage
all of their muscles (good swimmers usually use mostly their trunk muscles to move through the
water). The same would likely be true for running.

have read something about this by some athlete who trained by running completely under water - said
it worked well - wish I could remember who it ws

Quoted message said:

For long, cardio training: Otherwise, one of those small current generating "mini-lap" pool that
can easily be filled to different depths might work out (or a pool with an appropriate treadmill).
Initially, you can experiment yourself to see what feels right to you (and maybe look over some of
the equine training done), then try to fill the pool to a certain height ratio for any person.

will look into this - it's a good idea, thanks Becca -

"MJuric" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bill said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:QluIb.71268$aT.45723@news-
server.bigpond.net.au...

Quoted message said:

Hi. We're researching what the optimum specs would be for a swimming

pool

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

designed for running (indoors for our gym) - to suit people of

various

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

heights - anyone got any ideas or suggest any links? Thinking is that

this

Quoted message said:

would be an ideal way to recruit upper body muscles to improve aerobic effect. Any help or
ideas appreciated. Thanks

Go back to your original objective: to recruit upper body muscles.

For example, a treadmill with arm controls that allow the arms to take

part.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Perhaps an elliptical machine? Or redesigned nordic ski simulator. For injury rehab, a treadmill
with a lift harness that effectively reduces

body

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

weight. Even a very little lift would make running much easier. The

arms

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

could provide this lift either as a muscle force or through some cyclic work. A simple example
might be a recumbent bicycle with arm AND leg propulsion.

One could imagine a treadmill with speed regulated by the energy output

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

arm motion. How about an automobile regulated by a treadmill built in

place

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the traditional driver's seat? Or a bicycle pedal arrangement. You could bicycle from coast to
coast on superhighways!

Or we could really simplify things and simply swim. For a more enhanced aerobic activity try a six
beat kick with zoomers on for a few hundred yards, not that I've ever pulled that off, but I hear
it's killer.

Things wrong with swimming IMO - a) you don't work your leg muscles well -
i.e. hams, quads and calves are not worked anywhere near like running - (correct me if I'm wrong) -
b) the upper body is primarily a 'pulling' action so you are not getting a balance of chest
and back work

Quoted message said:

~Matt

"MJuric" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David said:

"Ted Bundy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

[.....]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

try to think this through, if swimming in principle worked better than running that would be a
fair question.

Not sure what you mean here. Swimming works wonders if your trying to be a better swimmer. But
does little if your trying to be a better running. It also can rival running as far as a cardio
workout, although it takes considerable more training to reach that point.

Quoted message said:

in other words you could 'swim in the streets' - that is how they train swimmers in the gym -
i.e. using a

swim

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bench and pulleys

This is done for strength reasons not cardio reasons. Swimming is more "power" dependant than is
running so weight training in swimming is slightly more prevalant than in running.

Quoted message said:

- I'm talking about running in water to enhance aerobic effect and also to minimize joint
injury

Can't argue you're point, as I've done no research but I suspect your thinking is incorrect. In my
experiance it is much more difficult to get an "enhanced cardio effect" (Measured by HR only) by
pool running. The pool running I do is tethered (Google Aqua jogging, deep water running). In this
case I can move my legs and arms fairly fast without worring about having to move my torso against
the resistance of water. If I had to "drag" my body through the water I would have to move much
slower or take much smaller steps but use much higher force in order to overcome the water
resistance. Although I suspect this wouls be good for building strength, I also suspect it wouls
not be so good for cardio. It wouls be more similar to weight lifting than running. But of course
this is entirely speculation on my part, but something I would definately check out before
building a pool.

Thanks. If you are running in a pool i.e. actual running with the water level somewhere maybe just
below your chest - you are still getting some impact but it is not high impact as is running on the
road - then with your arms you do a push/pull movement to get the muscles in your upper body going -
I can see a pretty good cardio workout> I tried it 'tethered' in the deep end but doesn;t do it for
me. I think you need some impact so that you are working the muscles in your legs

Quoted message said:

~Matt

"Dot" <dot.h@#att.net> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David said:

Thanks - I guess am looking for the cardio benefits of running without

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

'impact' on knees etc. So was thinking of a 'lap pool' sort of thing

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

would have different levels for varying height people. I thought that

being

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in water you can run (water around chest high)

If I understand you correctly, you're looking at normal running with feet on the pool bottom using
water as resistance (simulates real running with resistance), rather than deep water running
without feet touching (works legs and arms, but don't get the lower limb action of real running).

Exactly right. It is normal running with the added resistance of water and of course with the lower
impact by being in water. What I am after is reducing the impact and adding more resistance both for
legs and upper body.

Quoted message said:

For curiosity, have you actually tried it? You may have and have had different results than
myself, but here's my experience.

Yes have tried it for a short time but not trained that way so I don't know how a long term training
routine would work for me.

Quoted message said:

After I swim laps, I'll usually do some deep water running (don't touch bottom) for a few minutes
(before boredom overtakes me) and some shallow water running or drills (feet on bottom). Our pool
slopes from shallow end to deep end, so depth goes from about waist to however deep I want,
usually reverse direction (lap lanes) about chest height. My experience at the shallowest portion
is the water doesn't add that much resistance to the workout to provide much benefit nor to the
landing to prevent injury - almost a lose-lose situation. I don't know if there's a different
proprioceptive feeling that one needs to develop, but bare feet on pool tiles are hard, unless you
get it right, which I haven't.

When I'm in deeper water (say, chest deep), there's enough buoyancy that the "forward" propulsion
tends to have a noticeable upward component, so my running becomes more of a leaping, again not
what I'm looking for. But the footfall doesn't hurt.

There may be an ideal depth in between (and maybe that's your question),

yes I agree with what you are saying - there would be an optimum depth where you don;t get too much
'drag' and it is more like road running but with less impact. I think the depth is governed by that
you still need to be able to push/pull in water (using one of those 'glove' things that give you
additional resistance) - so the water depth needs to be just below chest height I would think

Quoted message said:

but my gut feeling is that by the time the buoyancy of the water reduces impact significantly,
you're getting too much buoyancy to mimic the forward propsulsion of running - at least with tiled
pool bottoms. Now if you had sand or something softer like treadmill-like belt or tight trampoline
or whatever, then you may be able to avoid the hard bottom issue and benefit from the water
resistance.

the hardness of the pool tiles would def be an issue - and would only be apparent over time - thanks
for that - will have to research this thing carefully

Dot dot.h@#att.net said:

MJuric said:

David said:

- I'm talking about running in water to enhance aerobic effect and also to minimize joint injury

Can't argue you're point, as I've done no research but I suspect your thinking is incorrect.
In my experiance it is much more difficult to get an "enhanced cardio effect" (Measured by
HR only) by pool running. The pool running I do is tethered (Google Aqua jogging, deep water
running). In this case I can move my legs and arms fairly fast without worring about having
to move my torso against the resistance of water. If I had to "drag" my body through the
water I would have to move much slower or take much smaller steps but use much higher force
in order to overcome the water resistance. Although I suspect this wouls be good for
building strength, I also suspect it wouls not be so good for cardio. It wouls be more
similar to weight lifting than running. But of course this is entirely speculation on my
part, but something I would definately check out before building a pool.

I agree / disagree partly. My thoughts are if you were stronger, you would probably get a better
cardio effect from deep water running through the pool than you would now. This is why strength
comes before power in base building - need strength first, then rapid application of it. Here's a
couple of my data points.

<Snip>

Don't disagree with your data points at all. One important factor to keep in mind however is
that the resistance of water is geometric. So in order to move twice as fast you will be
fighting against four times the force. So again as soon as your strength hit a point to over
come the resistance of the water to speed up the resistance would increase forcing you to
increase force and strength. Again, without research this points to strength not aerobic
capacity. Running in general, other than as you pointed out hill running, is not a power
based sport. No doubt running in a pool would prove to provide some benifit to running. I
suspect that that benefit would be more on the strength side than on the aerobic side
though. In a nut shell I see this happeneing. If I got in a pool right now and ran as hard
as I could I suspect that I could not raise my HR anywhere near my my LT probably not even
get it out of my lower zones. Thinking back to the days of running around our small circular
backyard pool trying to create a whirpool, I remember my legs getting tired but not being
breathless. If I kept doing this day after day my legs woudl eventually become stonger, but
I suspect long after my aerobic capacity had adpated, if it was forced to adapt at all. IMO,
again, simply a guess, you'd never get to a point of aerobic enhancement as it is not needed
as much for strength as it is more an aerobic activity like running.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

Just my experiments of one. Others will differ.

Dot