Running effort and wind

David Geesaman said:

Some competitors truly believe that the tailwinds made up for
the headwinds, which is something I knew wasn't right.

OK then, how about, for a sufficiently strong headwind, the lesser
force of the thinner air at say 9,000 feet altitude makes up for the
lower oxygen content? ;-)

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Geesaman said:

Some competitors truly believe that the tailwinds made up for
the headwinds, which is something I knew wasn't right.

OK then, how about, for a sufficiently strong headwind, the lesser
force of the thinner air at say 9,000 feet altitude makes up for the
lower oxygen content? ;-)

Depends. Do you have the VO2 Max Uptake of a golf ball?

Gotta factor in the density of smog, too.
:o)

Dave

"David Geesaman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've always had a hard time running fast times in windy conditions. Some
competitors truly believe that the tailwinds made up for the headwinds,
which is something I knew wasn't right. Yesterday, while flipping through

a

Quoted message said:

fluid mechanics text I saw the calculation for it, and roughed out some
numbers - this chart is the lbs. of drag force experienced by a runner
experiencing a tailwind (top number) and the matching headwind.

So for example, running a 6:00/mi pace in a 30mph wind, a runner

experiences

Quoted message said:

9.7lb of push when going with the wind, but a 35.0lb resistance when going
into the wind. In windless conditions that pace produces 2lb of

resistance

Quoted message said:

in all directions. So while you would gain 12lb of push going with the
wind, you fight an extra 33lb going into it.

http://www.davidgeesaman.com/rr/Wind%20Drag.gif

Dave

Interesting, thanks. I was just thinking about this today as I ran out into
a 15-20 knot headwind coming down the hudson river. A stupid idea occurred
to me - that a body faring would help one run faster, especially into a
steep headwind. Going downwind would be more tricky because a sail of sorts
would restrict arm movement more than a simple body faring. It's stupid
because a) it would look silly, and b) it wouldn't work in a cross-wind of
any kind. One Antarctic explorer used a kite to help him cover over 100
miles a day at times, on skis while man-hauling a 400+ pound sledge.

-Tony

David Geesaman said:

I've always had a hard time running fast times in windy conditions. Some
competitors truly believe that the tailwinds made up for the headwinds,
which is something I knew wasn't right. Yesterday, while flipping through a
fluid mechanics text I saw the calculation for it, and roughed out some
numbers - this chart is the lbs. of drag force experienced by a runner
experiencing a tailwind (top number) and the matching headwind.

So for example, running a 6:00/mi pace in a 30mph wind, a runner experiences
9.7lb of push when going with the wind, but a 35.0lb resistance when going
into the wind. In windless conditions that pace produces 2lb of resistance
in all directions. So while you would gain 12lb of push going with the
wind, you fight an extra 33lb going into it.

http://www.davidgeesaman.com/rr/Wind%20Drag.gif

Dave

There are other factors at work besides the "pounds of push." I have
no quantifiable notion of their significance, but the extra wind does
have a substantial "cooling" effect (a benefit) which should in some
quantity offset the resistance detriment; sort of like the difference
between treadmill running (some use a fan, for example) and real
running. Cyclists can be almost completely renewed by a chilling 60
mph headwind on a long descent. I'm also very confident that the wind
also changes the speeds at which the runners choose to run, so that
comparing "for and against" the wind at the same speed (e.g., 6
min/mi.) is not really the most apt comparison. Anyway, you make an
interesting point to be sure, but I think this matter is more complex
than it is presented in the chart.

David Geesaman said:

I've always had a hard time running fast times in windy conditions. Some
competitors truly believe that the tailwinds made up for the headwinds,
which is something I knew wasn't right. Yesterday, while flipping through a
fluid mechanics text I saw the calculation for it, and roughed out some
numbers - this chart is the lbs. of drag force experienced by a runner
experiencing a tailwind (top number) and the matching headwind.

So for example, running a 6:00/mi pace in a 30mph wind, a runner experiences
9.7lb of push when going with the wind, but a 35.0lb resistance when going
into the wind. In windless conditions that pace produces 2lb of resistance
in all directions. So while you would gain 12lb of push going with the
wind, you fight an extra 33lb going into it.

http://www.davidgeesaman.com/rr/Wind%20Drag.gif

Dave

There are other factors at work besides the "pounds of push." I have
no quantifiable notion of their significance, but the extra wind does
have a substantial "cooling" effect (a benefit) which should in some
quantity offset the resistance detriment; sort of like the difference
between treadmill running (some use a fan, for example) and real
running. Cyclists can be almost completely renewed by a chilling 60
mph headwind on a long descent. I'm also very confident that the wind
also changes the speeds at which the runners choose to run, so that
comparing "for and against" the wind at the same speed (e.g., 6
min/mi.) is not really the most apt comparison. Anyway, you make an
interesting point to be sure, but I think this matter is more complex
than it is presented in the chart.

"The Good Guy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Geesaman wrote:

There are other factors at work besides the "pounds of push."

For distance running, this was the most readily available quantity I could
calculate. I thought about converting the lb. into power, and then try to
correlate power output into seconds/mile, so I could argue a 30mph wind,
pushing fully against you for 100m of every lap on a track, would add :xx
seconds per mile since it's assumed you're going to output your same max
power in both conditions. (Kinda like the axiom that 1oz of shoe weight =
:05 / mile). But I didn't take that extra step - it was enough to prove to
me that the tailwind helps a lot less than the headwind takes away.

Quoted message said:

I have
no quantifiable notion of their significance, but the extra wind does
have a substantial "cooling" effect (a benefit) which should in some
quantity offset the resistance detriment; sort of like the difference
between treadmill running (some use a fan, for example) and real
running. Cyclists can be almost completely renewed by a chilling 60
mph headwind on a long descent.

While this is true, cyclists don't have to move their legs 100% of the
time, so runners will never get that 'renewed' feeling, at least if they're
running hard and for time. Since it can be windy and hot or windy and cold,
or windless and raining, it makes more sense to keep that whole issue
separate.

Quoted message said:

I'm also very confident that the wind
also changes the speeds at which the runners choose to run, so that
comparing "for and against" the wind at the same speed (e.g., 6
min/mi.) is not really the most apt comparison.

Well, I recall running on the track and in a strong wind, your pace
might change :30/mile from one straightaway to the next. Looking at the
chart, you can estimate that if you want, and IMO it's not a terribly large
variation.

Quoted message said:

Anyway, you make an
interesting point to be sure, but I think this matter is more complex
than it is presented in the chart.

I don't dispute that your ideas are real and valid, but I think
aerodynamic drag remains the overwhelming issue in windy conditions.
Crosswinds, the size/shape of the runner, the clothes they are wearing, etc
could all be factored in. It's far from being as simply as my chart, and I
put this together just to satisfy some curiosity. But I do feel it's a
valid set of rough numbers and interesting study.

Dave

~ * GLIDING MAMMALS ~
Flying lemurs and flying squirrels are gliding mammals ~ !

O Aerodynamic
Acrobat * ~

Planes, seeds, birds
& other flying things ~ !

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A pattern folded,
Origami seed in flight ...
Seed Helicopter ~

O perfect Seed, O, you travel through the air ~
O you alight, after flight,

In other places ~ ~ ~ *

O such a furry
Lion, O such a furry stoic mane
You wear ...

~ * ~

O Aerodynamic
Acrobat * ~

Paper aero planes, seeds, leaves
& other flying things ~ !

~ O Dandy Lion,
O Dandelion of Nature

A pattern folded,
Origami seed in flight ...
Seed Helicopter ~

O perfect Seed, you travel through the air ~
O you alight, after flight,

In far ~ flung flamboyant other places ~ ~ ~ *

O such a furry
Lion, O such a furry stoic mane
You sport ...

Leaves, seeds, and paper aero planes
We consider gliders,
Not true flyers ~ Sport they not parasols for rain,
Nor flapping wings, soaring ever higher,

To propel them through the air ~
But like a crafty spider, suspended from a sliver
Thread's trapeze, en mid ~ air,
Top stair ...

Leaves, seeds, aero planes on wings of folded paper
Know how to sing,

How to travel far on lightweight wings,
To fly upon wind, song, and prayer,

O Aerodynamic
Acrobat ~ !

How naturally
You dance so elegantly with gravity ~ !

O paper aero planes, O dandelion seed, O maple leaf
& other flying things ~

If there are 623 leaves gliding
And 389 seeds gliding
How many gliding things glide all together

On Extended
Far ~ Flung Flamboyant Wings ~ ?

~ * ~
________________________________________
~ * Just One of
The Morning Wood Matinee Dancing
Performances * ~
________________________________________
~ * The Flea Market

Tics, Hiccups, & Tea Cups &
Performing Fleas
Swing Both Ways on the Trapeze * ~

[Not
Le Cirque Soleil]

A forthcoming
Morning Wood High Tea
Time Ballet

~ * ~ ~ ~ ~
"...hardly a vocabulary left to wonder, uncertain
as we are of so much in this existence, this
botched, cumbersome, much-mended,
not unsatisfactory thing."

~ Amy Clampitt,
"A Hermit Thrush,"

Quoted message said:

From "The Collected Poems"

_________________________________________
* Dogging Arts * Fogging Minds * It's a Star *
_________________________________________
*
~ * ~

David Geesaman said:

snip...
I don't dispute that your ideas are real and valid, but I think
aerodynamic drag remains the overwhelming issue in windy conditions.
Crosswinds, the size/shape of the runner, the clothes they are wearing, etc
could all be factored in. It's far from being as simply as my chart, and I
put this together just to satisfy some curiosity. But I do feel it's a
valid set of rough numbers and interesting study.

Indeed, and I thank you far inserting a good thread amongst all the
drivel. I agree with you as you've stated things in an overall sense.
Returning to cycling as an example, because the effects of the wind are
tremendously amplified in that endeavor, makes your conclusions quite
clear. Th effects of riding into a 30 mph headwind for two hours could
never even remotely be made up for with two hours of similar tailwind;
some winds will slow your progress on a bike to near nil. Running
should produce the same overall result, except that the "other"
miscellaneous factors will be larger relative to the wind effects than
in cycling.

"David Geesaman" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

So for example, running a 6:00/mi pace in a 30mph wind, a runner
experiences 9.7lb of push when going with the wind, but a 35.0lb
resistance when going into the wind. In windless conditions that pace
produces 2lb of resistance in all directions. So while you would gain
12lb of push going with the wind, you fight an extra 33lb going into it.

Ah, so tell me, in my PR marathon, I ran the last 8 miles at 6:15 into a 10
mph headwind (no drafting, but I pulled a friend along). How much time did
I lose???

Late news--Per CoolRunning,

"Studies have determined that a 10 mph tailwind will nudge you ahead about 5
percent faster, while a 10 mph headwind slows you down by about 8 percent:"
(the above spoken by a grey haired man in a white lab coat, holding a
clipboard)

Answer, I lost 29 sec/mile! 4 minutes, shoulda run a 2:33....I knew it!