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Run a Stop Sign, Get a Ticket

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Road Cycling
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17 July 2007
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Paul J. Berg
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  1. ~

    From The (Portland) Oregonian - July 17, 2007

    On a 100-mile ride from Portland to the Oregon coast, three bicyclists
    pedaling through Washington County earlier this month rolled past a stop
    sign in tiny North Plains and were pulled over by the police chief.

    Three citations later, the trio owed the municipal court more than
    $1,000 in total fines. But that wasn't what steamed them or what set off
    a flurry of snippy online messages between the small-town cop and the
    big-city bicycle bloggers.

    What aggravated them was the context of the incident, coming soon after
    Aloha cyclist Timothy O'Donnell was struck and killed by a driver with a
    suspended license who faced only fines for traffic violations, such as
    careless driving and passing in a no-passing zone. They were also
    annoyed by what they called "a lecture" from North Plains Police Chief
    Scott Whitehead.
    Jonathan Maus, editor of BikePortland.org, picked up the North Plains
    story for his bicycle blog July 6 and set off a heated online debate in
    the cycling community over the next five days.
    The comments reflected long-simmering tensions that erupted after
    O'Donnell's death and remain heated among drivers, cyclists and police
    officers.

    "It seems like there's always a big outrage," Maus said.

    Whitehead himself entered the online fray at one point.

    Since he came to North Plains four years ago, Whitehead says he has
    spent a small part of his eight-hour days at the busy intersection of
    Northwest Glencoe and West Union roads, just north of U.S. 26.

    The intersection sits on a popular cycling route that draws dozens of
    cyclists on weekdays and hundreds on weekends, said Whitehead, who
    claims to ticket anybody who blasts through the four-way stop. He said
    he probably writes five to seven cycling citations a month during the
    peak of cycling season -- and five to seven year-round for vehicles.

    By comparison, police in nearby Hillsboro -- which, at a population of
    85,000, is roughly 50 times larger than North Plains -- issued a single
    citation to a cyclist for rolling through a traffic signal this past
    year, although they stop and warn several people a month, said Lt.
    Michael Rouches. The fine for that offense in Hillsboro is $242. North
    Plains charges $335.

    Whitehead said he ignores the vast majority of cyclists, including those
    "coming through the stop sign at a couple miles an hour, and it's
    obvious they're looking and making sure nobody is coming."

    But that's exactly how Tim Schauer, 39, said his group traveled through
    the stop sign July 5. The three, who pleaded not guilty to their
    citations, will be in North Plains Municipal Court on Aug. 6.

    Whitehead "sort of took the opportunity to tongue-lash us a bit,"
    Schauer said. Whitehead mentioned recent bicycle fatalities and made it
    seem "like I'm a contributing factor to this really tragic accident,"
    said Schauer, pointing out that O'Donnell was not violating any traffic
    laws when he was killed in June on a rural road north of Cornelius.

    Schauer later described the North Plains incident on the Oregon Bicycle
    Racing Association e-mail list: "During the rest of our ride to the
    coast, we discussed amongst ourselves the $1,005 in fines we were levied
    with compared to the $1,100 in fines levied against the driver who hit
    and killed the cyclist recently. It truly is a strange world sometimes."

    After Schauer went online, a few readers, such as Evan MacKenzie of
    Baker City, e-mailed Whitehead privately. MacKenzie, a recent Hillsboro
    resident, criticized Whitehead for "punishing cyclists" and wrote: "The
    area around North Plains is a wonderful place to ride, but not if the
    local police practice a skewed 'Dukes of Hazzard' observance of the
    law."

    Whitehead acknowledges fanning the flames with his response, in which he
    called MacKenzie a "complete idiot." MacKenzie decided to forward the
    exchange to BikePortland.org, where it prompted a flurry of hostility
    toward Whitehead -- as well as an effort to restore calm and defend the
    chief.

    "While that is certainly a steep fine, the truth of the matter is this,"
    wrote "Dabby" on July 9. "It is illegal to not stop at a stop sign.
    Until it is legal to yield at a stop sign, if you do, and get caught,
    you deserve the ticket. . . . Pay the fine."

    Whitehead himself wrote: "There is nothing worse than responding to a
    crash with injuries or death. You think it's tough on you as a bike
    community? It's tough on us when we have to make a death notification
    and then second guess if we could have prevented such a tragic event."

    That hasn't happened in North Plains recently, where the only bicycle
    crash in the past few years was the fault of a truck driver turning in
    front of a cyclist who had the right of way, Whitehead said. It was not
    fatal.

    MacKenzie thinks some cycling time could help Whitehead better
    understand cyclists. "I invite you to go on a ride with me and see what
    it's like. I'll come all the way back from Baker City and ride with
    you," he wrote back after Whitehead's initial response.

    But Whitehead said he doesn't plan to join MacKenzie on the road,
    particularly if it's West Union Road, which he says is too dangerous for
    cyclists. And Whitehead doesn't think he could keep up for long. "It's a
    lot of endurance. I don't have that much energy to do what these folks
    do."

    ~

  2. "Paul J. Berg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    ~

    From The (Portland) Oregonian - July 17, 2007

    On a 100-mile ride from Portland to the Oregon coast, three bicyclists
    pedaling through Washington County earlier this month rolled past a stop
    sign in tiny North Plains and were pulled over by the police chief.

    Three citations later, the trio owed the municipal court more than
    $1,000 in total fines. But that wasn't what steamed them or what set off
    a flurry of snippy online messages between the small-town cop and the
    big-city bicycle bloggers.

    What aggravated them was the context of the incident, coming soon after
    Aloha cyclist Timothy O'Donnell was struck and killed by a driver with a
    suspended license who faced only fines for traffic violations, such as
    careless driving and passing in a no-passing zone. They were also
    annoyed by what they called "a lecture" from North Plains Police Chief
    Scott Whitehead.
    Jonathan Maus, editor of BikePortland.org, picked up the North Plains
    story for his bicycle blog July 6 and set off a heated online debate in
    the cycling community over the next five days.
    The comments reflected long-simmering tensions that erupted after
    O'Donnell's death and remain heated among drivers, cyclists and police
    officers.

    What a dickheaded cop. If any of them spent any time on a bike they'd
    realize that you can safely go through a stop sign without having to put a
    foot on the ground.

    The other driver sounds like he should have gotten a minimum of a couple of
    years.

  3. aeiouy said:


    "Paul J. Berg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    ~

    From The (Portland) Oregonian - July 17, 2007

    On a 100-mile ride from Portland to the Oregon coast, three
    bicyclists pedaling through Washington County earlier this month
    rolled past a stop sign in tiny North Plains and were pulled over by
    the police chief.

    Three citations later, the trio owed the municipal court more than
    $1,000 in total fines. But that wasn't what steamed them or what set
    off a flurry of snippy online messages between the small-town cop and
    the big-city bicycle bloggers.

    What aggravated them was the context of the incident, coming soon
    after Aloha cyclist Timothy O'Donnell was struck and killed by a
    driver with a suspended license who faced only fines for traffic
    violations, such as careless driving and passing in a no-passing
    zone. They were also annoyed by what they called "a lecture" from
    North Plains Police Chief Scott Whitehead.
    Jonathan Maus, editor of BikePortland.org, picked up the North Plains
    story for his bicycle blog July 6 and set off a heated online debate
    in the cycling community over the next five days.
    The comments reflected long-simmering tensions that erupted after
    O'Donnell's death and remain heated among drivers, cyclists and
    police officers.

    What a dickheaded cop. If any of them spent any time on a bike they'd
    realize that you can safely go through a stop sign without having to
    put a foot on the ground.

    If you want to ride in traffic, you get to obey the traffic laws just
    like the big kids.

    Quoted message said:


    The other driver sounds like he should have gotten a minimum of a
    couple of years.

    Maybe. Depends on the situation. Apparently You don't know all of it.

    Quoted message said:


  4. In article <1pkni.1080$I76.401@trnddc05>,

    Lobby Dosser said:

    If you want to ride in traffic, you get to obey the traffic laws just
    like the big kids.

    If they rolled through a stop sign, it sounds like they *precisely*
    obeyed the the traffic laws just like the big kids. Here's a fun
    physics follow-up: if a 5000lb SUV rolls through a stop sign at 1mph,
    how fast could a 250lb cyclist do it while carrying the same momentum?
    Or is it asking too much for the laws of the government to follow from
    the laws of physics?

    --
    My personal UDP list: 127.0.0.1, 4ax.com, buzzardnews.com, googlegroups.com,
    heapnode.com, localhost, teranews.com, x-privat.org

  5. aeiouy said:


    "Paul J. Berg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    ~

    From The (Portland) Oregonian - July 17, 2007

    On a 100-mile ride from Portland to the Oregon coast, three bicyclists
    pedaling through Washington County earlier this month rolled past a stop
    sign in tiny North Plains and were pulled over by the police chief.

    Three citations later, the trio owed the municipal court more than
    $1,000 in total fines. But that wasn't what steamed them or what set off
    a flurry of snippy online messages between the small-town cop and the
    big-city bicycle bloggers.

    What aggravated them was the context of the incident, coming soon after
    Aloha cyclist Timothy O'Donnell was struck and killed by a driver with a
    suspended license who faced only fines for traffic violations, such as
    careless driving and passing in a no-passing zone. They were also
    annoyed by what they called "a lecture" from North Plains Police Chief
    Scott Whitehead.
    Jonathan Maus, editor of BikePortland.org, picked up the North Plains
    story for his bicycle blog July 6 and set off a heated online debate in
    the cycling community over the next five days.
    The comments reflected long-simmering tensions that erupted after
    O'Donnell's death and remain heated among drivers, cyclists and police
    officers.

    What a dickheaded cop. If any of them spent any time on a bike they'd
    realize that you can safely go through a stop sign without having to put
    a foot on the ground.

    The other driver sounds like he should have gotten a minimum of a couple
    of years.

    so you think traffic laws should not have to be obeyed by bicyclist's on
    public roads? Where is it written that they get that right!

  6. [email hidden] (Doc O'Leary) wrote in
    news:[email hidden]
    t:

    Quoted message said:

    In article <1pkni.1080$I76.401@trnddc05>,

    Lobby Dosser said:

    If you want to ride in traffic, you get to obey the traffic laws
    just like the big kids.

    If they rolled through a stop sign, it sounds like they *precisely*
    obeyed the the traffic laws just like the big kids.

    How so, if the law requires a full stop?

    --
    Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | [email hidden]

  7. [email hidden] (aeiouy) wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    What a dickheaded cop. If any of them spent any time on a bike
    they'd realize that you can safely go through a stop sign without
    having to put a foot on the ground.

    Most of the time, someone driving a car can safely roll through a
    stop sign too.

    But that's not what the law says, is it?

    --
    Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | [email hidden]

  8. "Bert Hyman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] (aeiouy) wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    What a dickheaded cop. If any of them spent any time on a bike
    they'd realize that you can safely go through a stop sign without
    having to put a foot on the ground.

    Most of the time, someone driving a car can safely roll through a
    stop sign too.

    Neither you or I were there so we don't know how these guys went through the
    stop but yes you can come to a stop on a bike without having to put a foot
    down. To take it one step further; in your opinion, if a jogger came to
    that intersection and didn't stop jogging for 1 second before continuing
    would they be guilt of jay walking?

    Quoted message said:


    But that's not what the law says, is it?

    --
    Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | [email hidden]

  9. [email hidden] (aeiouy) wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    To take it one step further; in your opinion, if a jogger came to
    that intersection and didn't stop jogging for 1 second before
    continuing would they be guilt of jay walking?

    My opinion has no bearing on this, and I have no idea what the law
    has to say about it, if anything.

    --
    Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | [email hidden]

  10. "Lobby Dosser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:1pkni.1080$I76.401@trnddc05...

    Quoted message said:
    aeiouy said:


    "Paul J. Berg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    ~

    From The (Portland) Oregonian - July 17, 2007

    On a 100-mile ride from Portland to the Oregon coast, three
    bicyclists pedaling through Washington County earlier this month
    rolled past a stop sign in tiny North Plains and were pulled over by
    the police chief.

    Three citations later, the trio owed the municipal court more than
    $1,000 in total fines. But that wasn't what steamed them or what set
    off a flurry of snippy online messages between the small-town cop and
    the big-city bicycle bloggers.

    What aggravated them was the context of the incident, coming soon
    after Aloha cyclist Timothy O'Donnell was struck and killed by a
    driver with a suspended license who faced only fines for traffic
    violations, such as careless driving and passing in a no-passing
    zone. They were also annoyed by what they called "a lecture" from
    North Plains Police Chief Scott Whitehead.
    Jonathan Maus, editor of BikePortland.org, picked up the North Plains
    story for his bicycle blog July 6 and set off a heated online debate
    in the cycling community over the next five days.
    The comments reflected long-simmering tensions that erupted after
    O'Donnell's death and remain heated among drivers, cyclists and
    police officers.

    What a dickheaded cop. If any of them spent any time on a bike they'd
    realize that you can safely go through a stop sign without having to
    put a foot on the ground.

    If you want to ride in traffic, you get to obey the traffic laws just
    like the big kids.


    You never go 5 miles over the speed limit?

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:


    The other driver sounds like he should have gotten a minimum of a
    couple of years.

    Maybe. Depends on the situation. Apparently You don't know all of it.


    From what was posted here I know enough to know that a) he was driving under
    a suspended license b) he was passing in a no-passing zone c) his actions
    killed a bicyclist. With that information I know he should haev been
    charged with involuntary manslauther at least.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:



  11. aeiouy said:


    "Bert Hyman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] (aeiouy) wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    What a dickheaded cop. If any of them spent any time on a bike
    they'd realize that you can safely go through a stop sign without
    having to put a foot on the ground.

    Most of the time, someone driving a car can safely roll through a
    stop sign too.

    Neither you or I were there so we don't know how these guys went through
    the stop but yes you can come to a stop on a bike without having to put
    a foot down. To take it one step further; in your opinion, if a jogger
    came to that intersection and didn't stop jogging for 1 second before
    continuing would they be guilt of jay walking?

    Quoted message said:


    But that's not what the law says, is it?

    --
    Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | [email hidden]


    is their feet licensed? Are they considered a vehicle?

  12. aeiouy said:

    What a dickheaded cop. If any of them spent any time on a bike they'd
    realize that you can safely go through a stop sign without having to put a
    foot on the ground.

    I have read quite a bit about this (I live in Oregon) since the initial
    news story.

    It seems as though the cop WAS allowing the bicyclists to roll through the
    stop sign so they would not have to put their feet on the ground. The three
    who were arrested RAN the stop sign.

    This, of course, does not make for a good news story.

  13. Lobby Dosser said:
    aeiouy said:


    What a dickheaded cop. If any of them spent any time on a bike they'd
    realize that you can safely go through a stop sign without having to
    put a foot on the ground.

    If you want to ride in traffic, you get to obey the traffic laws just
    like the big kids.

    Err, how does that violate a traffic law? I can (and do) come to a
    complete stop on my bike every day without putting my foot down. I'm
    not talking a 'California' or rolling stop. A real, zero mph, stop.

    Now granted, that may not be what the previous poster was talking about.
    His paragraph is somewhat ambiguous.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The other driver sounds like he should have gotten a minimum of a
    couple of years.

    Maybe. Depends on the situation. Apparently You don't know all of it.

    He killed someone while driving under a suspended license. You might be
    right in that legally he can't be prosecuted for something more serious
    than a traffic violation. If so, that's a sad thing to hear.

    Imagine, if instead of a random cyclist, they had killed your son or
    daughter, or your elderly grandmother. Would you be more sympathetic to
    more serious charges then?

    --
    Dane Buson - [email hidden]
    Time Lords rule! Everything. Forever.

  14. Dane Buson said:
    Lobby Dosser said:
    aeiouy said:

    What a dickheaded cop. If any of them spent any time on a bike they'd
    realize that you can safely go through a stop sign without having to
    put a foot on the ground.


    If you want to ride in traffic, you get to obey the traffic laws just
    like the big kids.

    Err, how does that violate a traffic law? I can (and do) come to a
    complete stop on my bike every day without putting my foot down. I'm
    not talking a 'California' or rolling stop. A real, zero mph, stop.

    Now granted, that may not be what the previous poster was talking about.
    His paragraph is somewhat ambiguous.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The other driver sounds like he should have gotten a minimum of a
    couple of years.


    Maybe. Depends on the situation. Apparently You don't know all of it.

    He killed someone while driving under a suspended license. You might be
    right in that legally he can't be prosecuted for something more serious
    than a traffic violation. If so, that's a sad thing to hear.

    Imagine, if instead of a random cyclist, they had killed your son or
    daughter, or your elderly grandmother. Would you be more sympathetic to
    more serious charges then?

    Ask honu. He will tell you that dead is just dead nothing to get all het
    up about.

  15. Scratch said:
    Dane Buson said:


    Imagine, if instead of a random cyclist, they had killed your son or
    daughter, or your elderly grandmother. Would you be more sympathetic to
    more serious charges then?

    Ask honu. He will tell you that dead is just dead nothing to get all het
    up about.

    Honu? Is that Xenu's younger brother or something?

    --
    Dane Buson - [email hidden]
    "The more I work with computers, the better and better subsistence
    farming looks as an alternative." -- David Cameron Staples in asr

  16. Doc O'Leary said:

    In article <1pkni.1080$I76.401@trnddc05>,

    Lobby Dosser said:

    If you want to ride in traffic, you get to obey the traffic laws just
    like the big kids.

    If they rolled through a stop sign, it sounds like they *precisely*
    obeyed the the traffic laws just like the big kids.

    What part of "STOP" don't you understand?

    Quoted message said:

    Here's a fun
    physics follow-up: if a 5000lb SUV rolls through a stop sign at 1mph,

    Called a California stop in Oregon. And Not Legal.

    Quoted message said:

    how fast could a 250lb cyclist do it while carrying the same momentum?
    Or is it asking too much for the laws of the government to follow from
    the laws of physics?

    Is it asking too much for cyclists to obey traffic laws?

    Quoted message said:
  17. aeiouy said:


    "Lobby Dosser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:1pkni.1080$I76.401@trnddc05...

    Quoted message said:
    aeiouy said:


    "Paul J. Berg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    > ~
    >
    > From The (Portland) Oregonian - July 17, 2007
    >
    > On a 100-mile ride from Portland to the Oregon coast, three
    > bicyclists pedaling through Washington County earlier this month
    > rolled past a stop sign in tiny North Plains and were pulled over
    > by the police chief.
    >
    > Three citations later, the trio owed the municipal court more than
    > $1,000 in total fines. But that wasn't what steamed them or what
    > set off a flurry of snippy online messages between the small-town
    > cop and the big-city bicycle bloggers.
    >
    > What aggravated them was the context of the incident, coming soon
    > after Aloha cyclist Timothy O'Donnell was struck and killed by a
    > driver with a suspended license who faced only fines for traffic
    > violations, such as careless driving and passing in a no-passing
    > zone. They were also annoyed by what they called "a lecture" from
    > North Plains Police Chief Scott Whitehead.
    > Jonathan Maus, editor of BikePortland.org, picked up the North
    > Plains story for his bicycle blog July 6 and set off a heated
    > online debate in the cycling community over the next five days.
    > The comments reflected long-simmering tensions that erupted after
    > O'Donnell's death and remain heated among drivers, cyclists and
    > police officers.
    >

    What a dickheaded cop. If any of them spent any time on a bike
    they'd realize that you can safely go through a stop sign without
    having to put a foot on the ground.

    If you want to ride in traffic, you get to obey the traffic laws just
    like the big kids.


    You never go 5 miles over the speed limit?

    Frequently. Sometimes more than that. If I get caught, I smile and pay
    the fine. I Don't call the cop a '[censored]'.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:


    The other driver sounds like he should have gotten a minimum of a
    couple of years.

    Maybe. Depends on the situation. Apparently You don't know all of it.


    From what was posted here I know enough to know that a) he was driving
    under a suspended license b) he was passing in a no-passing zone c)
    his actions killed a bicyclist. With that information I know he
    should haev been charged with involuntary manslauther at least.

    With that information you have no idea whether he should be charged with
    manslaughter or not.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:



  18. Dane Buson said:
    Lobby Dosser said:
    aeiouy said:


    What a dickheaded cop. If any of them spent any time on a bike
    they'd realize that you can safely go through a stop sign without
    having to put a foot on the ground.

    If you want to ride in traffic, you get to obey the traffic laws just
    like the big kids.

    Err, how does that violate a traffic law? I can (and do) come to a
    complete stop on my bike every day without putting my foot down. I'm
    not talking a 'California' or rolling stop. A real, zero mph, stop.

    Good. I've done the same. Apparently the three who were fined did not do
    that.

    Quoted message said:


    Now granted, that may not be what the previous poster was talking
    about. His paragraph is somewhat ambiguous.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The other driver sounds like he should have gotten a minimum of a
    couple of years.

    Maybe. Depends on the situation. Apparently You don't know all of it.

    He killed someone while driving under a suspended license. You might
    be right in that legally he can't be prosecuted for something more
    serious than a traffic violation. If so, that's a sad thing to hear.

    Imagine, if instead of a random cyclist, they had killed your son or
    daughter, or your elderly grandmother. Would you be more sympathetic
    to more serious charges then?

    I'd be sympathetic to charges anytime. But I don't know all of the
    circumstances. And I don't think anyone else posting here does. If the
    cyclist had run a stop sign, would you still be sympathetic to serious
    charges?

    Quoted message said:
  19. Lobby Dosser said:
    Dane Buson said:

    Err, how does that violate a traffic law? I can (and do) come to a
    complete stop on my bike every day without putting my foot down. I'm
    not talking a 'California' or rolling stop. A real, zero mph, stop.

    Good. I've done the same. Apparently the three who were fined did not do
    that.

    Fair enough. Personally I think they should take their tickets and stop
    their whining.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > The other driver sounds like he should have gotten a minimum of a
    > couple of years.

    Maybe. Depends on the situation. Apparently You don't know all of it.

    He killed someone while driving under a suspended license. You might
    be right in that legally he can't be prosecuted for something more
    serious than a traffic violation. If so, that's a sad thing to hear.

    Imagine, if instead of a random cyclist, they had killed your son or
    daughter, or your elderly grandmother. Would you be more sympathetic
    to more serious charges then?

    I'd be sympathetic to charges anytime. But I don't know all of the
    circumstances. And I don't think anyone else posting here does. If the
    cyclist had run a stop sign, would you still be sympathetic to serious
    charges?

    Yes. Because the driver was driving on a suspended license. There is
    no justification for him being behind the wheel in the first place.
    Now, would it be a mitigating circumstance if he had right of way and
    the cyclist did the proverbial 'blowing the sign' right into his path?
    Yes, I'd say so.

    --
    Dane Buson - [email hidden]
    "Did you know that a cow was MURDERED to make that jacket ?"
    "Yes. I didn't think there were any witnesses, so I guess I'll
    have to kill you too." - Jake Johansen.

  20. Dane Buson said:
    Lobby Dosser said:
    Dane Buson said:

    Err, how does that violate a traffic law? I can (and do) come to a
    complete stop on my bike every day without putting my foot down. I'm
    not talking a 'California' or rolling stop. A real, zero mph, stop.


    Good. I've done the same. Apparently the three who were fined did not do
    that.

    Fair enough. Personally I think they should take their tickets and stop
    their whining.

    I guess they'll have to eventually, but I don't think the punishment
    fits the crime. Here in MA, the cycling moving violations are capped at
    $20, which seems a lot more reasonable. Sounds like same fines for cars
    & bikes in OR, which makes no sense.

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