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RR: Turnagain Arm 8 miler

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22 May 2005
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Dot
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  1. Race: Turnagain Arm 8-miler
    Where: Turnagain Arm Trail, Potter to Rainbow, Anchorage, AK
    When: May 17, 2005; 6:30pm
    Distance: 8 miles / 1130 ft according to guidebook (or 4 miles / 300 or
    so ft)
    Number of runners: about 85-90 in the 8 miler

    Sponsored by: UAA (U. of Alaska Anchorage) Ski Team for scholarships

    Pictures: http://home.att.net/~akrunning/Turnagain2005/index.html
    Most pictures (except last one) are from running or hiking the trail 3
    yr ago since I didn't stop for pictures this time.

    Summary picture: http://tinyurl.com/akyva
    gives some better depth perception than mine.

    Goal: to just do it and have fun

    For those of you that were here 3 yr ago when I did my first trail race
    - and all the usual newbie mistakes - this is its big brother - the one
    that has haunted me for 3 yr.

    Background:

    3 yr ago I was even more clueless than I am now and terrified of the
    trail description for the 4-8 mile section (included words like "falling
    to your death" - hey, that's the description in the guide, not *my*
    hyperbole - but it had a significant negative psychological effect). I
    kinda had a feeling that 8-9 mile long run on roads that I had back then
    didn't really relate to 8 miles on trails, but didn't have any
    experience to back it up - that level of ignorance where you don't know
    how clueless you really are. So I decided to do the 4 miler then build
    to the 8 miler in the future. In the meantime, an assortment of things
    happened including having to be out of town in 2003, and the race being
    cancelled because of bears in 2004. It's slowly changed from just a
    race to an obsession.

    This year they moved the race about 2 wks earlier - before the moose
    start dropping calves, which is a frequent meal for bears. Bears feeding
    on carcasses may tend to make a meal of a runner - or anyone - that
    happens to surprise it. By this time, I definitely had the mileage with
    elevation gain, although my runs were more on rolling hills and a lot of
    winter running was stop / go around ice spots, foot/hoof prints, etc.
    rather than continuous running or even power hiking. Then I couldn't
    find anyone to shuttle with this year (race is point-to-point with no
    official shuttle). I e-mailed RD, apologetically since I knew they were
    busy, offered to help cleanup since I'd be one of last if I could bum a
    ride back. He said somebody could provide a ride back. Just go run
    and don't worry about it. The whole atmosphere of this race seemed
    friendlier than 3 yr ago.

    The race:

    Somehow I actually made it to the starting line, where I'm finding I
    know - or at least recognize - more people than I did 3 yr ago
    (recognized exactly 1 then). I assumed my usual position of trailing the
    pack and maintaining an effort that should last for a couple hours. My
    legs seemed tired most of the way - perhaps not recovered from the 12
    miles (about 3 miles longer than my longest long run) 10 days earlier (I
    usually allow 2 wks). I seemed to arrive at the 4-mi cutoff slightly
    slower than when I ran the 4-miler 3 yr ago, but that would be expected
    - but mentally, I was surprised to see it so soon. Roots weren't nearly
    as big now as 3 yr ago - or as dense 😉 I was going slow enough and was
    considering opting for the 4 mile rather than keep volunteers waiting at
    the finish. However, given the problems I've had even getting to the
    starting line of this race, the lack of bears (only scat), etc, I
    decided to continue on and get this monkey off my back. There was also a
    sweep, and as I found out later, they had some runners from the ski team
    be bear bait, er, I mean run the trail checking for bears before the race.

    After winding through the picnic area by the 4-mi cutoff, the fun began
    with the rockier trail with the larger hills in the 2nd half. The part
    with the "falling to your death" description. I had hiked this 2nd
    section 3 yr ago in anticipation of running it sometime, so I had an
    idea of what to expect - except my recollection was in terms of hiking
    from the half-way picnic area, not running 4 miles beforehand. I
    traversed the land-slide section with no problems - remembering to keep
    my eye on the trail and not look down (see pictures). What I hadn't
    realized before is that this steep, exposed hill is *not* the big hill.
    It was waiting for me another mile or so down the line, so I kinda blew
    my energy management. That last hill burned, even though I've hiked
    hills twice that big in training - although with precarious snow
    conditions so probably wasn't at same effort level.

    I eventually got to the downhill - about 700ft @ 15% slope - and
    negotiated that just fine - running the whole way, including the flat
    part to the finish. Didn't face plant on the few remaining roots and no
    sore quads or knees either that night or several days later. At least my
    downhill training paid some benefits. I was DFL at 2:12:08, a couple
    minutes slower than my slowest estimate this year, but I got the monkey
    off my back, and finished it, and that was my primary goal.

    One thing that was kinda funny in the 2nd half. I had my long-sleeve
    powerdry on. While I was sweating, I didn't feel like I wanted to be in
    short sleeves, esp. since nose was dripping and it was windy in some of
    the exposed areas. When I arrived at finish, many people were dressed in
    insulated jackets, winter hats, etc. Hmm, that would explain why my body
    was reacting like winter. There's actually about a 20 mph wind coming
    off Turnagain Arm, which probably made for a substantial chilling factor
    with an overcast sky. Temperatures were probably about 55 or so,
    according to weather, but maybe in different part of town.

    For those that remember my fluid / fuel issues from 2002, this time I
    *did* remember to drink in the race (camel bak, not a bottle, this
    time), and I had reasonable amount of food in car - plus ate more after
    I got home. This time I did not wake up hungry in the middle of the
    night and not be able to get back to sleep, like I did 3 yr ago. Also
    DOMS was negligible this time, which surprised me considering how tired
    I was getting going up that last hill. Legs were tired, but not stiff,
    for a few days. But I was still glad I didn't have a duathlon in 2.5
    days like I did in 2002.

    Things to do differently:
    Aside from possibly inadequate recovery from the 10k (20k total), I may
    not have gotten the fueling just right before the race. Because of
    Anchorage rush-hour traffic, I usually leave my house about 3pm for a
    5:30 meet / 6:30pm race start. I either need to eat a bigger, later
    lunch or take pre-race food with me (more than what I took this time).
    If I do any of the Tues night series in the fall, I'll get to practice
    this more, although those races are less than 10k.

    In retrospect, with regard to training, I wish I'd bought the snowshoe
    poles earlier in the winter so I could've had higher quality workouts on
    the larger hills. While I usually have close to 1000 ft elev change in
    an 8-mi long run, it's distributed differently than this race and my
    smaller hills are under 100 ft tall while the big one in this was about
    500 ft (not big compared to mountains). And my hikes up bigger hills
    went up at least 1500 ft in one pitch (and a 2nd part up about half
    that) - but I've had to pick my way through footing issues, so intensity
    was low. I'm toying between either adding some higher intensity hills
    (let effort go above LT rather than trying to keep below that) or doing
    bigger hills to get more efficient and stronger - both issues are more
    readily resolved in summer.

    The positive side of this is that this became a really good training run
    to get experience on tired legs. It was a good confidence builder in
    terms of being able to keep moving. (keep in mind, these races have no
    sag wagon and usually no road intersections - definitely no curb to sit on)

    While still largely clueless about many things, at least now I'm getting
    a handle on my level of cluelessness 😉 Thanks for reading.

    Dot

    --
    "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
    away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

  2. Oops, with the pictures, the water / downhill is on the right during the
    race, which is a traverse along hillside paralleling Turnagain Arm. Some
    pictures are in reverse direction since they show better. With the
    "don't look down" picture, the trail is traversing above, not going down
    that chute.

  3. Great scenery. Congrats, looks demanding.

  4. Twittering One said:

    Great scenery. Congrats, looks demanding.

    Wow, just when I convinced myself you were a webbot, you post this.
    Now I may have to actually read some of your poetry styled posts!

    --
    Ed Prochak
    running http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
    netiquette http://www.psg.com/emily.html
    --
    "Two roads diverged in a wood and I
    I took the one less travelled by
    and that has made all the difference."
    robert frost

  5. Quoted message said:

    Wow, just when I convinced myself you were a webbot, you post this.
    Now I may have to actually read some of your poetry styled posts!

    You'll be wasting hours reading her posts, looking for that extremely rare
    lucid moment. It's not worth it.

    --
    Phil M.

  6. Way to go, Dot! Thanks for another interesting trail race report and some
    more photos - I remember some of those photos from the last time you posted
    them...

    Anthony.

  7. Anthony said:

    Way to go, Dot! Thanks for another interesting trail race report and some
    more photos - I remember some of those photos from the last time you posted
    them...

    Anthony.


    Thanks, Anthony. Since it was forecast to have scattered showers that
    night and I had good photos from 3 yr ago, I decided to depend on those
    and not worry about getting photos during the race. I high-graded the
    4-miler pictures and added the 2nd half high points. As it turned out,
    the weather was fine. I've learned a lot since that first trail race.

    Dot

    --
    "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
    away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

  8. Ed Prochak said:
    Dot said:

    Oops, with the pictures, the water / downhill is on the right during
    the race, which is a traverse along hillside paralleling Turnagain
    Arm. Some pictures are in reverse direction since they show better.
    With the "don't look down" picture, the trail is traversing above, not
    going down that chute.

    Still they were some beautiful pictures. It looked like more of a trail
    this time than the last one, even with the "don't look down" section.

    Yes. Most of this is actually an old road dating back to early 1900s.
    Landslides have probably wiped out portions of it or it used to go a
    slightly different route. Where to go was never in question - except
    through the picnic area. The outbound Dew Mound trail that I had trouble
    navigating in the Seymour was "built" as single track about 6-7 yr ago,
    I think. It's probably an enhanced herd trail with very little
    vegetation removed. The inbound Iditarod trail in that race was part of
    old sled-dog trail dating back to early 1900s. It's neat to have the
    different kinds of trails. Since last summer I've gotten into some trail
    maintenance and had learned a little about trail design for different
    uses. I'm also learning more about the history of some of these areas -
    at least if they put interpretive signs up for me. Kinda fun.

    Quoted message said:


    Congratulations on attacking this beast of a run.

    Thanks.

    Quoted message said:


    And I have to say you are definitely NOT a clueless one. So thanks for
    the report and all your other contributions her in r.r.


    Thanks, but I still have a lot to learn.

    Dot

    --
    "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
    away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

  9. picture a great added surprise.
    so so green.......
    bet thet a.m. p.m. are cold.
    any black flies.
    to keep you moving. we have these trio wings half black and white ones
    that puts welts for sure.......this year been cold so long haven't seen
    a bug in 8 months.

    bugs some there now coming back..west of port huron a 100 miles or
    about... great lake state. bottom of lake Michigan. beach open next
    week.....and we getting new roadwork a year too.....yah..... rock
    on.........
    nice post dot.....wish I could do that.wait a tick I can
    now......on a bike and hike....
    soon a boot.......just kidding.....time to ride.
    after reading some in rr land was rsting change me mind.. a beef sounds
    good....
    148 plus 14 in last 8 days...... 2 days off...........20.2 a day × 8
    =.......... apple fruit buds I see and salads veggies garden growing
    fast now air sack on onion seedling yesterday I see......won't be long.
    dandelions are white toping... and bitter a little butt edable. yes....
    been 10 cent cans most all...

    I see when the preds play they might kill.....
    be carefull out there..... Lowtuc

  10. Dot wrote in message ...

    Thanks for the report. Great pics as usual Dot, and good job pushing through
    your apprehension to do the longer race.

    Quoted message said:

    Things to do differently:
    Aside from possibly inadequate recovery from the 10k (20k total), I may
    not have gotten the fueling just right before the race. Because of
    Anchorage rush-hour traffic, I usually leave my house about 3pm for a
    5:30 meet / 6:30pm race start. I either need to eat a bigger, later
    lunch or take pre-race food with me (more than what I took this time).
    If I do any of the Tues night series in the fall, I'll get to practice
    this more, although those races are less than 10k.

    I always throw enough gear and food in the car to handle 2 or 3 races so I
    can choose what to eat or wear at the last minute. Trail (and normal) races
    here are early in the morning, so it's more a question of what to eat the
    night before and how to get the liver glycogen back up in the AM. I usually
    eat 1/2 protein/carb bar, and drink about a liter of accelerade in the 1.5
    hours before the race.

    Quoted message said:

    was low. I'm toying between either adding some higher intensity hills
    (let effort go above LT rather than trying to keep below that) or doing
    bigger hills to get more efficient and stronger - both issues are more
    readily resolved in summer.

    I'd say it really depends on your goal race distance. Racing around 2 hours
    or more, that's too long to go above LT IMO. You really wanna keep it
    decidedly below LT on even the steepest hills, even if that means taking
    baby steps. In a race of 1-1.5 hours going slightly above LT tactically is
    ok, but is unnecessary. At less than an hour you can push very hard and let
    the terrain draw your effort.

    When I was running the blue course (80-110 mins) and in top orienteering
    shape 22 years ago, I would push well above LT while racing, but that only
    works for a 20 year old 🙂

    Quoted message said:

    The positive side of this is that this became a really good training run
    to get experience on tired legs. It was a good confidence builder in
    terms of being able to keep moving. (keep in mind, these races have no
    sag wagon and usually no road intersections - definitely no curb to sit on)

    If this is a training run, what's your new goal race?

    -Tony

  11. "Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Race: Turnagain Arm 8-miler
    Where: Turnagain Arm Trail, Potter to Rainbow, Anchorage, AK

    That sounded like a lot of fun. I swear three years ago I ran this race
    quit by accident. I was in the Hilton hotel in Anchorage and I went towards
    the water where the hotel people told me to go and I ended up on this wide
    trail through trees that went alomg the coast in places and eventually you
    could tell where the airport was. On Saturday, (three years ago last
    Saturday) I saw there was a race and we jumped in. Would this have been the
    same race or a different one. BTW, I ate seafood (Copper river salmon,
    Pacific salmon, halibut, crab two out of every three meals every day I was
    there. I also climbed Flattop with a guide and several other hills and we
    saw moose and bears.

    A great time for sure. We also went to Alyeska(sp?) ski resort and had a
    ball. Take care and good luck.

    Quoted message said:

    --
    "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
    away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

  12. Tony said:

    Dot wrote in message ...

    Thanks for the report. Great pics as usual Dot, and good job pushing through
    your apprehension to do the longer race.

    Thanks.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Things to do differently:
    Aside from possibly inadequate recovery from the 10k (20k total), I may
    not have gotten the fueling just right before the race. Because of
    Anchorage rush-hour traffic, I usually leave my house about 3pm for a
    5:30 meet / 6:30pm race start. I either need to eat a bigger, later
    lunch or take pre-race food with me (more than what I took this time).
    If I do any of the Tues night series in the fall, I'll get to practice
    this more, although those races are less than 10k.

    I always throw enough gear and food in the car to handle 2 or 3 races so I
    can choose what to eat or wear at the last minute.

    I usually do also, but I got caught transitioning between things and was
    also making room for my bike in case I had to ride back to start. Not
    everything got re-stocked properly. Actually, part of what happened was
    I had eaten all my stashed food in the car and that hadn't registered in
    my mind. I usually like to hit Arby's if I can, just for a treat. I had
    a full cooler at the Seymour 10k!

    Quoted message said:

    Trail (and normal) races
    here are early in the morning, so it's more a question of what to eat the
    night before and how to get the liver glycogen back up in the AM. I usually
    eat 1/2 protein/carb bar, and drink about a liter of accelerade in the 1.5
    hours before the race.

    Yea, morning or mid-day races aren't a problem. I eat a larger breakfast
    than normal, drive to the race (usually an hour) arriving 1 hr before
    the start, and have about 1/2 powerbar and fluids up to 45 min before.
    If it's cold, I may eat a full powerbar. Just depends.

    While I run mostly in the evening, I'm usually finished by 7pm and my
    long runs are in day. Since my other races are about 10am, we've had a
    lot of evening meetings, and recovery from long evening runs takes me
    longer, I opted for just one 6:30pm run, not particularly long - best
    shot at optimizing available time for planned races. If we get a heat
    wave, that's likely the hottest time of day, so I was kinda trying to do
    2 things - later run than normal as well as heat acclimitization (which
    wasn't needed). I think my biorhythm works better in the morning or
    early afternoon 😉

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    was low. I'm toying between either adding some higher intensity hills
    (let effort go above LT rather than trying to keep below that) or doing
    bigger hills to get more efficient and stronger - both issues are more
    readily resolved in summer.

    I'd say it really depends on your goal race distance.

    Ultimately, hopefully, in a couple years it'll be a 50 miler with 13 hr
    cutoff, but I don't think the hills are particularly steep. This year,
    mostly in the 8-mile, 1000-2000 ft range, 10-20% slopes. Maybe something
    longer, if I feel like driving 7 hr in Labor Day traffic.

    I'd be training above LT to raise it and increase aerobic capacity,
    rather attempting to run that effort in a race - other than finish spurt
    or maybe topping off a hill.

    The primary approach I'd be taking is just plain running or power hiking
    at aerobic effort (77-86% max hr) an assortment of types of hills to
    gain strength and improve efficiency on all those. Secondarily, would be
    some higher efforts to try to raise LT a little. The first will have
    longer lasting effects, while the higher intensity will be shorter lived.

    In the past, I've not been able to run substantially in summer because
    of field work, so it was rather pointless to do any high intensity work
    except for diversity and kicks (and hence my standing joke about never
    doing speedwork) - and snowshoe running tends to run the hr up anyway.
    This summer will be different and haven't quite decided how to structure
    things yet since I don't really know my recovery times running longer on
    dirt, but we shall find out as I go. I know them in winter on snow and
    have a couple data points from last summer.

    The bigger hills will definitely have priority since they can be snow
    covered from late Aug to early May, although more recently Oct to April.
    If I can find some local rocks and roots, they'll have priority also
    since these get buried in the snow. I figure I have about a 10-wk window
    to next likely cluster of events, then a month more till possible snow,
    although not necessarily snow that sticks.

    Quoted message said:

    Racing around 2 hours
    or more, that's too long to go above LT IMO.

    Right, LT is usually maintainable at race effort only for about 1 hr. I
    did one short LT run about 1.5 wk before Seymour that gave me the
    confidence for the finishing kick there (heck, I had walked so much of
    the rocky part, I had a lot left at end).

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    The positive side of this is that this became a really good training run
    to get experience on tired legs. It was a good confidence builder in
    terms of being able to keep moving. (keep in mind, these races have no
    sag wagon and usually no road intersections - definitely no curb to sit on)

    If this is a training run, what's your new goal race?

    All "races" are training runs and usually scenic runs for me 🙂
    There's a couple others I'm considering, but most likely my next event
    will be Chena Hot Springs Run & Soak - 8ish miles, 2000ft, I think. I'm
    hoping to spend a couple days up there playing around on the local
    trails and scouting a race for next year, but I may not have that much
    time. The race goes over a ridge with granite tors so should be pretty -
    and different from trails down here.

    If I decide not to drive to Fairbanks for CHS or they're having fires
    like last year, I'll probably do a 6k, 1500 ft race north of Anchorage.

    This will be unique for me since I've never had the opportunity to train
    through the summer for a race - usually I'm squeezing them in between
    winter and field season or trying to recover from field work enough to
    run a couple races in the fall.

    I'll volunteer at the RP 50/100 the following weekend so I can help,
    preview some of course, and get an idea how the runners deal with water.

    Dot

    --
    "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
    away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

  13. TenKMan said:

    "Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Race: Turnagain Arm 8-miler
    Where: Turnagain Arm Trail, Potter to Rainbow, Anchorage, AK

    That sounded like a lot of fun. I swear three years ago I ran this race
    quit by accident.

    Geez, and you didn't introduce yourself!?

    I was in the Hilton hotel in Anchorage and I went towards

    Quoted message said:

    the water where the hotel people told me to go and I ended up on this wide
    trail through trees that went alomg the coast in places and eventually you
    could tell where the airport was.

    Was this paved? If so, it was probably the Tony Knowles Coastal Trail.
    I'm not sure how long it is now, but it follows the coast (duh!) around
    Anchorage and provides a connector for many of the other urban trails.
    Tony Knowles is former Anchorage mayor, Alaska governor, and marathoner.
    I've accessed that trail during lunch breaks during meetings at the
    Captain Cook as well as Sheraton (very long lunch breaks at that meeting).

    On Saturday, (three years ago last

    Quoted message said:

    Saturday) I saw there was a race and we jumped in. Would this have been the
    same race or a different one.

    Probably a different one since Turnagain has always been a Wed evening
    until this year when it was Tues evening run. But there's a ton of races
    that use the TK Coastal Trail at some point.

    BTW, I ate seafood (Copper river salmon,

    Quoted message said:

    Pacific salmon, halibut, crab two out of every three meals every day I was
    there.

    Yep, tis the season! If you're interested in Copper River Salmon you
    might want to try one of the Salmon races in Cordova 🙂

    Quoted message said:

    I also climbed Flattop with a guide and several other hills and we
    saw moose and bears.

    Yep, Fltattop is one of the more popular trails!

    Quoted message said:


    A great time for sure. We also went to Alyeska(sp?) ski resort and had a
    ball. Take care and good luck.


    Alyeska is where the World Mountain Trophy Race was held in 2003.

    Thanks.

    Dot

    --
    "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
    away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

  14. Dot wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Tony said:

    Dot wrote in message ...


    snip <

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    was low. I'm toying between either adding some higher intensity hills
    (let effort go above LT rather than trying to keep below that) or doing
    bigger hills to get more efficient and stronger - both issues are more
    readily resolved in summer.

    I'd say it really depends on your goal race distance.

    Ultimately, hopefully, in a couple years it'll be a 50 miler with 13 hr
    cutoff, but I don't think the hills are particularly steep. This year,
    mostly in the 8-mile, 1000-2000 ft range, 10-20% slopes. Maybe something
    longer, if I feel like driving 7 hr in Labor Day traffic.

    I'd be training above LT to raise it and increase aerobic capacity,
    rather attempting to run that effort in a race - other than finish spurt
    or maybe topping off a hill.

    You know more than me about this stuff, and enjoy self coaching like me. You
    can raise LT by training at or just under it. Tempo runs at just under LT
    work fine. Of course they won't boost your VO2, but the intensity of VO2
    training probably isn't necessary for those doing races over 2 hours in
    duration, particularly for me as a mid-packer.

    Quoted message said:

    The primary approach I'd be taking is just plain running or power hiking
    at aerobic effort (77-86% max hr) an assortment of types of hills to
    gain strength and improve efficiency on all those. Secondarily, would be
    some higher efforts to try to raise LT a little. The first will have
    longer lasting effects, while the higher intensity will be shorter lived.

    Since LT is variable, 86% might be close enough to LT to push it up for a
    while, until it moves higher from the training.

    Quoted message said:

    In the past, I've not been able to run substantially in summer because
    of field work, so it was rather pointless to do any high intensity work
    except for diversity and kicks (and hence my standing joke about never
    doing speedwork) - and snowshoe running tends to run the hr up anyway.
    This summer will be different and haven't quite decided how to structure
    things yet since I don't really know my recovery times running longer on
    dirt, but we shall find out as I go. I know them in winter on snow and
    have a couple data points from last summer.

    I know the feeling. For me just getting in adequate base mileage is the main
    goal, though with the 3-4 days of running a week I do, most in this group
    consider it inadequate for a marathon type distance. For my 50 miler I still
    plan only 4 days running / week, but with longer long runs and/or maybe a
    back2back on the weekend. Of course I'll still cross-train on the bike.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Racing around 2 hours
    or more, that's too long to go above LT IMO.

    Right, LT is usually maintainable at race effort only for about 1 hr. I
    did one short LT run about 1.5 wk before Seymour that gave me the
    confidence for the finishing kick there (heck, I had walked so much of
    the rocky part, I had a lot left at end).

    What I meant was not running the whole race over LT, but allowing effort to
    go over LT for parts of the race. In longer races, its very important not to
    let the effort creep over LT at all because that burns much more glycogen.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If this is a training run, what's your new goal race?

    All "races" are training runs and usually scenic runs for me 🙂
    There's a couple others I'm considering, but most likely my next event
    will be Chena Hot Springs Run & Soak - 8ish miles, 2000ft, I think. I'm
    hoping to spend a couple days up there playing around on the local
    trails and scouting a race for next year, but I may not have that much
    time. The race goes over a ridge with granite tors so should be pretty -
    and different from trails down here.

    That's a great attitude. I think you have the most scenic races of posters
    from this group anyway. I can't call my races training runs because they end
    up breaking me down beyond any positive training effect.

    Quoted message said:

    If I decide not to drive to Fairbanks for CHS or they're having fires
    like last year, I'll probably do a 6k, 1500 ft race north of Anchorage.

    This will be unique for me since I've never had the opportunity to train
    through the summer for a race - usually I'm squeezing them in between
    winter and field season or trying to recover from field work enough to
    run a couple races in the fall.

    I'll volunteer at the RP 50/100 the following weekend so I can help,
    preview some of course, and get an idea how the runners deal with water.

    Sounds like fun.

    -Tony

    Quoted message said:

    Dot

    --
    "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
    away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

  15. Tony said:

    Dot wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:


    I'd be training above LT to raise it and increase aerobic capacity,
    rather attempting to run that effort in a race - other than finish spurt
    or maybe topping off a hill.

    You know more than me about this stuff, and enjoy self coaching like me. You
    can raise LT by training at or just under it.

    Most of what I read suggest at or just over LT, but some have it just
    under. Then again, does any recreational runner know their LT hr
    accurately enough to distinguish just under or just over? 😉 I usually
    just go by breathing.

    This is a short version of an article in RRN that I find somewhat useful
    for benefits of different workouts. (print version has a lot more
    detail, iirc, but don't have it handy)
    http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0966b.htm

    Anderson and others argue you have to be above LT to have much to clear.
    Others argue you may need to be below it or it's too difficult to clear.

    Quoted message said:

    Tempo runs at just under LT
    work fine. Of course they won't boost your VO2, but the intensity of VO2
    training probably isn't necessary for those doing races over 2 hours in
    duration, particularly for me as a mid-packer.

    While you don't run a long race at VO2max, there are physiological
    benefits of training in that zone.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The primary approach I'd be taking is just plain running or power hiking
    at aerobic effort (77-86% max hr) an assortment of types of hills to
    gain strength and improve efficiency on all those. Secondarily, would be
    some higher efforts to try to raise LT a little. The first will have
    longer lasting effects, while the higher intensity will be shorter lived.

    Since LT is variable, 86% might be close enough to LT to push it up for a
    while, until it moves higher from the training.

    It might, but I include those runs / hikes in my broad "easy" category.
    When running hills "easily", I tend to drift up into the upper end of
    that zone for brief periods - still primarily aerobic effort. When
    snowshoe running (not slogging), I'm almost always toward the upper end
    of that zone. I'm not strong enough yet to ss run at much lower effort.
    (My effort level distribution would probably not meet r.r standards, but
    that's life. 😉 )

    But I usually have to consciously work to get above 86% - unless on big
    hills or deep snow or whatever. That's why I make the separation where I
    do. Different books / programs have somewhat different zones. These
    seem to work for me.

    Quoted message said:


    I know the feeling. For me just getting in adequate base mileage is the main
    goal, though with the 3-4 days of running a week I do, most in this group
    consider it inadequate for a marathon type distance.

    But you also see some here and elsewhere that do marathons or ultras on
    minimal mileage with lots of cross-training, in some cases. Look at Tom
    B.'s marathon time on 2 days/wk running.

    Quoted message said:

    I can't call my races training runs because they end
    up breaking me down beyond any positive training effect.

    For a little bit, I thought I had done that with the 10k, that I did
    twice, but I was pain free in a couple days - although apparently legs
    were only recovered for flats, not hills. I was really surprised at lack
    of DOMS after the 8 miler, though. But I did decide not to do a 3rd race
    that I was considering (they increased distance by 18% compared with
    usual distance) - decided to take the training gains from these 2 races
    and not risk angering the injury gods. Besides, the snow had melted, and
    I want to go run in the mountains, rather than backoff for another race.

    One thing I think I'm starting to get a handle on - my recovery times
    within a run (aerobic) and between runs (both DOMS and dead legs). I'm
    getting a better feeling for how much I can progress without pushing too
    much (= anger injury gods). If I have to push to get the mileage to get
    to the start line, then I have a tendency to overdo it. For me, it works
    better adjusting my goals to fit where I can get reasonably. I'm better
    off slightly undertrained, but getting to start line healthy.

    My "schedule" this winter and spring consisted primarily of a list of
    weekly goals for TOL on long-runs or big hill hikes on weekend. I
    arrived at goals by backcounting from spring races - and recognizing
    that March and April can be poor conditions because of breakup. If trail
    conditions were such that it wasn't realistic to get a decent long run
    in, I did what I could and modified as I went. The weekday runs are
    generally easy - except days with good conditions when I might do a
    harder effort run - or days that had sufficient crud, that just running
    was a "hard" effort.

    Dot

    --
    "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
    away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

  16. Tony said:

    I know the feeling. For me just getting in adequate base mileage is the main
    goal, though with the 3-4 days of running a week I do, most in this group
    consider it inadequate for a marathon type distance. For my 50 miler I still
    plan only 4 days running / week, but with longer long runs and/or maybe a
    back2back on the weekend. Of course I'll still cross-train on the bike.

    You might find something of interest in here: Art of the Low-Mileage Ultra.
    http://www.fitnessintuition.com/lowmile.htm

    There's a bunch of other interesting articles on there also - mostly
    based on experience rather than controlled studies.

    Dot

    --
    "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
    away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

  17. Dot wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Tony said:

    I know the feeling. For me just getting in adequate base mileage is the


    main

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    goal, though with the 3-4 days of running a week I do, most in this group
    consider it inadequate for a marathon type distance. For my 50 miler I


    still

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    plan only 4 days running / week, but with longer long runs and/or maybe a
    back2back on the weekend. Of course I'll still cross-train on the bike.

    You might find something of interest in here: Art of the Low-Mileage Ultra.
    http://www.fitnessintuition.com/lowmile.htm

    There's a bunch of other interesting articles on there also - mostly
    based on experience rather than controlled studies.

    Dot

    Hey thanks Dot, looks very interesting for me. I already kind of did this
    last year for my 50k, though I tried very hard to get in 2 weekly runs as
    well, and plenty of easy biking. I think without the biking I would get
    pretty fat quickly. Like Doug and a few other's advised me last year - the
    long runs are the most important thing for ultras.

    When I upped my running to 4/5 times per week for my Fall marathon, I found
    it a great deal harder, even though the total running time per week was
    similar to what I was doing before the 50k. I ended up having a horrible
    marathon and found my legs so fried they didn't come back until really late
    February.

    "Suzi is one of just two runners, as of this writing, ever to finish the
    ridiculously difficult Barkley Marathons".

    "My most aggressive mileage ramping occurred a couple years ago
    when my long run went from zero to one hundred in less than six
    months. I believe that it succeeded because of the massive
    amounts of rest I got between runs (i.e. in 23 weeks I ran
    only 36 times)".

    -Tony

  18. Tony said:

    Dot wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    You might find something of interest in here: Art of the Low-Mileage Ultra.
    http://www.fitnessintuition.com/lowmile.htm

    Hey thanks Dot, looks very interesting for me. I already kind of did this
    last year for my 50k, though I tried very hard to get in 2 weekly runs as
    well, and plenty of easy biking. I think without the biking I would get
    pretty fat quickly. Like Doug and a few other's advised me last year - the
    long runs are the most important thing for ultras.

    Yea, I thought you'd find that interesting. It's consistent with what
    I'm finding also - focus on the long run - and allow adequate recovery
    for that.

    Quoted message said:


    When I upped my running to 4/5 times per week for my Fall marathon, I found
    it a great deal harder, even though the total running time per week was
    similar to what I was doing before the 50k. I ended up having a horrible
    marathon and found my legs so fried they didn't come back until really late
    February.

    FWIW, I've only been running 3 days a week most of the time,
    occasionally adding a hike as 4th day or my cross-training class (not
    running, but lots of running-like drills and pounding). When I ran into
    problems a few years ago while still on roads is when I started trying
    to add more to the weekday runs - as per standard schedules. Now I just
    focus on the long run (definitely not within r.r allowances as pct of
    weekly total, but it's been working for me). Like you, running longer
    fewer times with more recovery seems to work better for me than a bunch
    of short runs with less recovery. It also makes more effective use of
    time and allows more variety on runs (not running near the trailhead as
    much). Now that I'll have time to run more consistently - and get more
    sleep for recovery, I may change a little, but will just take it one
    week at a time. But on my races, I don't feel like more mileage for the
    sake of mileage would be any real benefit - but more specific training
    like longer hills and roots would be.

    Quoted message said:


    "Suzi is one of just two runners, as of this writing, ever to finish the
    ridiculously difficult Barkley Marathons".

    That web page may be old. Not sure if he is referring to the fun run (60
    mi) or the full shootin' match, but there's only 6 people that have
    completed the full to date: Mark Williams, David Horton, Blake Wood,
    Cave Dog, Mike Tilden, Jim Nelson. I believe Suzi has finished the fun
    run, but apparently earlier than I could find records for. But she has
    run over 100 ultras and was the first woman to finish the Grand Slam,
    which may be more notable achievements than the fun run at Barkley in
    some people's eyes. Races are some peoples' long training runs.

    Dot

    --
    "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
    away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

  19. Dot wrote in message ...

    Quoted message said:

    snipped<

    Tony said:

    Dot wrote in message
    When I upped my running to 4/5 times per week for my Fall marathon, I


    found

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    it a great deal harder, even though the total running time per week was
    similar to what I was doing before the 50k. I ended up having a horrible
    marathon and found my legs so fried they didn't come back until really


    late

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    February.

    FWIW, I've only been running 3 days a week most of the time,
    occasionally adding a hike as 4th day or my cross-training class (not
    running, but lots of running-like drills and pounding). When I ran into
    problems a few years ago while still on roads is when I started trying
    to add more to the weekday runs - as per standard schedules. Now I just
    focus on the long run (definitely not within r.r allowances as pct of
    weekly total, but it's been working for me). Like you, running longer
    fewer times with more recovery seems to work better for me than a bunch
    of short runs with less recovery. It also makes more effective use of
    time and allows more variety on runs (not running near the trailhead as
    much). Now that I'll have time to run more consistently - and get more
    sleep for recovery, I may change a little, but will just take it one
    week at a time. But on my races, I don't feel like more mileage for the
    sake of mileage would be any real benefit - but more specific training
    like longer hills and roots would be.

    "Running longer fewer times with more recovery..." Exactly, and when I tried
    more times per week it really blew up in my face. Reading that article
    encourages me to play it by ear and not insist on running a fixed number of
    times per week even. If 2 times seems best some weeks I'll try that. When I
    try running more times per week, even short distances, my legs just never
    feel fresh.

    Early last year I was doing a 3 day cycle of Run-Bike-Walk, and that seemed
    to work great. I was doing 60 to 100 min trail runs most runs, my legs felt
    pretty fresh for each run, and I was improving. I posted my scheme to this
    group in a naive way, and got bombed with advice saying more shorter runs
    are better. [censored], not for everyone! I now believe that I should have
    stuck to this pattern far longer instead of trying to run more frequently.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "Suzi is one of just two runners, as of this writing, ever to finish the
    ridiculously difficult Barkley Marathons".

    That web page may be old. Not sure if he is referring to the fun run (60
    mi) or the full shootin' match, but there's only 6 people that have
    completed the full to date: Mark Williams, David Horton, Blake Wood,
    Cave Dog, Mike Tilden, Jim Nelson. I believe Suzi has finished the fun
    run, but apparently earlier than I could find records for. But she has
    run over 100 ultras and was the first woman to finish the Grand Slam,
    which may be more notable achievements than the fun run at Barkley in
    some people's eyes. Races are some peoples' long training runs.

    Yea, I'm sure it's old, and I knew that when I copied the quote. Still, it's
    remarkable that someone who trains sparely, focusing on the long run, can do
    even the 60mi fun run THERE at barkley.

    -Tony

    Quoted message said:

    Dot

    --
    "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
    away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

  20. Tony said:

    Dot wrote in message ...

    Early last year I was doing a 3 day cycle of Run-Bike-Walk, and that seemed
    to work great. I was doing 60 to 100 min trail runs most runs, my legs felt
    pretty fresh for each run, and I was improving. I posted my scheme to this
    group in a naive way, and got bombed with advice saying more shorter runs
    are better. [censored], not for everyone! I now believe that I should have
    stuck to this pattern far longer instead of trying to run more frequently.

    I would probably agree, but there's no way to know at the outset until
    we each try. It took me awhile to catch on, but when considering advice,
    I consider the source - whether it's a person or journal article or book
    or whatever - their level of relevant experience or the relevance of the
    study groups and treatments to me and my goals. (Books with runners in
    singlets on track on cover frequently aren't relevant to Alaska winter
    running.) This is where the ultra and trail running groups can provide a
    much broader and deeper range of experiences - usually conflicting 😉
    (gotta love the sport) But frequently one of those options or
    combination may end up working for the individual - or not. This is
    where comments from people like Doug would be valuable to you while
    training for Escarpment since he's done it so many times. Individual
    training responses (hills, endurance, rocks/roots, etc) several others
    could contribute towards.

    My guideline for the last 1.5+ yr or so: Snippets from
    http://www.tcd.ie/Clubs/DUHAC/Training/15laws1.php
    (I believe I originally saw Arthur Newton's 9 laws or adaptations in Noakes)

    "Rule #4: DON'T SET YOURSELF A DAILY SCHEDULE

    Some runners often choose to run each day according to a prearranged
    schedule. This approach is less than ideal as the weather may not always
    be appropriate and the body may not always be ready to undertake the
    training scheduled for that day."

    "A daily schedule should act only as a guideline. Knowing how much to
    train on any given day comes from learning to "listen to your body".
    This is not always easy because it demands insight and flexibility,
    attributes not everyone possesses. Yet the ability to know how much
    training to do on any particular day ultimately determines running success."

    (I partly disagree with the avoidance of weather comment because that
    weather may be what you race under, but I generally avoid 1st time at
    new distance or duration or significant hill work with really cruddy
    footing. But the readiness of the body comment I think is right on.)

    Quoted message said:

    Yea, I'm sure it's old, and I knew that when I copied the quote. Still, it's
    remarkable that someone who trains sparely, focusing on the long run, can do
    even the 60mi fun run THERE at barkley.

    I agree. I picked on the other achievements since they might be more
    recognizable to this group since there's probably only a small portion
    of people here that can relate to Barkley or know about it. Gosh, 36-min
    miles is all it takes to finish 😉

    Dot

    --
    "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
    away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

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