RPE for 2x20s

kmavm said:

I don't have a power meter (yet), but have found that my HRM can be deceptive when doing L4 work (Coggan's schema). Like many others, I consider 2x20s my "bread-and-butter" workout for the week, and am gauging my efforts primarily by RPE. How would you characterize your perceived effort during the last, say, 3 minutes of a 2x20 style interval?

which interval? 😉

I do all of my intervals at ~90% of my MP for that duration, so the last 3 minutes of a 20min interval are definitely not "agony." In fact, at any point during the interval I can increase power by, say, 30w for a few minutes. And, I usually do the last minute at ~FT+100w. Nonetheless, a 90% effort definitely requires concentration. I'm working relatively hard, but definitely not all out. My HR varies from ~85-90%MHR, occasionally as low as 80%MHR.

RapDaddyo said:

I do all of my intervals at ~90% of my MP for that duration, so the last 3 minutes of a 20min interval are definitely not "agony." In fact, at any point during the interval I can increase power by, say, 30w for a few minutes. And, I usually do the last minute at ~FT+100w. Nonetheless, a 90% effort definitely requires concentration. I'm working relatively hard, but definitely not all out. My HR varies from ~85-90%MHR, occasionally as low as 80%MHR.

2x20's: I do these at ~95% 1st interval effort (at or slightly above my current FT)

On a good day:
1st interval completion: I would rate challenging
2nd interval completion: I would rate a struggle

On a bad day:
1st interval completion: A struggle
2nd interval completion: Impossible 🙁

Heartrates: over the last 10min of each interval from 89-93% of max

I do NOT do these suckers all year round though (8-12 weeks). Otherwise, I'm on the Lydiard plan (converted to AC cycling intensities 🙂)

rm

rmur17 said:

2x20's: I do these at ~95% 1st interval effort (at or slightly above my current FT)

On a good day:
1st interval completion: I would rate challenging
2nd interval completion: I would rate a struggle

On a bad day:
1st interval completion: A struggle
2nd interval completion: Impossible 🙁

Heartrates: over the last 10min of each interval from 89-93% of max

I do NOT do these suckers all year round though (8-12 weeks). Otherwise, I'm on the Lydiard plan (converted to AC cycling intensities 🙂)

rm

Lydiard plan=mucho time in z3?

When do you do the 2x20's? Leading up to a peak? Do you follow that with a few weeks of z5 work?

whoawhoa said:

Lydiard plan=mucho time in z3?

When do you do the 2x20's? Leading up to a peak? Do you follow that with a few weeks of z5 work?

Yes as much Level 3 as one can possibly digest 😄. Sometimes these end up in lower L4 but hardly ever down into L2 (for extended periods I mean). That doesn't mean I ride at 75-90% of FT on pancake flat terrain - the power varies as the terrain/wind dictates but the core ride AP and NP are L3 or Lower L4.

Personally, I then hit Level 5 for a block while still maintaining as much L3/LL4 as I can sustain/recover from ... and then hit mid to upper L4 before the real season starts.

I'm focused on 20-40k TT'ng so L5 top-end power and jump aren't super important. I tend to focus on what's key to my racing prior to important events. Uhmm ... that's not to say I've always done so 🙁 but I'm learning.

If I were racing crits, hilly road races or the track pursuit, my structure would be different.

YMMV and all that 😉

rm

rmur17 said:

I do NOT do these suckers all year round though (8-12 weeks).

Why? I can see laying off the L5s and L6s, but lay off the L4s?

RapDaddyo said:

Why? I can see laying off the L5s and L6s, but lay off the L4s?

I don't perceive the need to work at 1.00-1.05 IF level all year round. I would burn out (and pretty much did so back in 2003).

Dropping that sweet 10-15% into the tempo and lower L4 levels allows me to ride there consistently and rack up tonsa TSS points ... and without requiring long road rides. Being stuck in eastern Canada, I can't manage those from Dec-March.

So it's a compromise between 'effective' intensity and duration ...

I should also note that my FT increased (for me) a nice 5% last winter prior to any hard L4/L5 work so I was happy with the results. I'm old so 5-8% per year is great progress in my books.

ymmv,
rm

I do 2*20s at an IF of more than 1.0 most of the time. 1.0 - 1.05 They are agony by the end. At least for me I've found I get much better than if i do than at lower intensities. And yes I retest and adjust my FT regularly.

kmavm said:

I don't have a power meter (yet), but have found that my HRM can be deceptive when doing L4 work (Coggan's schema). Like many others, I consider 2x20s my "bread-and-butter" workout for the week, and am gauging my efforts primarily by RPE. How would you characterize your perceived effort during the last, say, 3 minutes of a 2x20 style interval?

I find the early and mid parts harder than the last 3 minutes. At 17 minutes into a 20min interval you're on the home straight and the endorphins are kicking in. At 5 to 10 minutes I'm really hurting and if I'm too beat up to complete, then that is when I'm more likely to ease off the power a bit. I usually feel stronger after 10 minutes.

rmur17 said:

Yes as much Level 3 as one can possibly digest 😄.
rm

Hey Ric, are you doing this Level 3 on the trainer and if so, are you basically doing steady state or mixing it up to keep from going mad?

I live in Michigan and face similar challenges wrt weather.

beerco said:

Hey Ric, are you doing this Level 3 on the trainer and if so, are you basically doing steady state or mixing it up to keep from going mad?

I live in Michigan and face similar challenges wrt weather.

Hi AB,
Well I've been lucky to get out for one ride a week which is forming 30% of my volume right now.

When things really sock in .. I expect I'll do something akin to last winter:
M: religiously OFF
T: solid lower L4 session .92-0.95IF for 0:45-1:30. Alternate between CT in pure ergo mode or up to 60k hard on 3D (10K_loop) course. Total w/o time ~2hrs
W: mid L3 session 0.85 for 1:00 to 1:30. This is never taken 'hard'. These I usually do on the CT in 'mag-trainer' handlebar mode. I vary cadence, gearing to suit, stand up every 15min or so. Total time 1:15-1:45
T: tough upper L3 session 0.90 IF target for as long as I can hold that power level. Typically I rode a variable yet not wildy variable course like 50mile-5%. Can't remember the times offhand - maybe 2:15 hard with a total of 2:30-2:45
F: Off or light lower L2 spin 1hr max.
S: Longish lower tempo ride on one of several 3D courses. Target 0.80-0.85 for 3+ hrs and plenty of mod. grade climbing. I built a 100k terraced long-climb course especially for Saturday's (15k climbs alternating with 5k flat-rolling sections).
S: upper L3-lower L4 (0.90-0.95) session on CT in mag-trainer mode. Power free to float depending on recovery, regular standing. Core 0:45-1:30 and total of 2hrs max.

My biggest weeks were ~12 hrs but have to say I averaged only 10 for Jan/Feb/March.

I don't think I could handle even 10 hrs and five days per week without the CT. My favorite split was 1 day ergo, 2 days mag-trainer and 2 days 3D per week. When the roads & temps cooperated (perhaps once a month), I did the Saturday longish ride outdoors.

Come late March/early April, I found I could 'easily' handle 4+ hrs outdoors at the same power I was holding for 2.5 on the CT.

In summary, I did zero upper L4 work, zero L5, zero L6/7, and very little L1/L2 - just core L3/4 but with a decent dose of variety given the CTs ability to switch modes.

More than you wanted to know? 😉
rmur

rmur17 said:

Hi AB,

I don't think I could handle even 10 hrs and five days per week without the CT. My favorite split was 1 day ergo, 2 days mag-trainer and 2 days 3D per week. When the roads & temps cooperated (perhaps once a month), I did the Saturday longish ride outdoors.

More than you wanted to know? 😉
rmur

No actually, it's just what I wanted to know. Unfortunately, I'll be lucky if I can hit 8hours/week over this winter due to the lifestyle my job imposes on me (lots of travel, plus I've got two kids). I'm only cat 3 though so it should be enough to build if I do it right.

I've typically trained on a diet of L4 over the winter but that's always been very difficult. My CTL is lower than I care to admit publicly which makes matters even worse, hence the question to the other list. I'm trying to figure out what type of program is going to be sustainable, minimum hours and still building...which often leads to L4.

I hear you on the CT. I'm kind of frustrated right now because I own a cardgirus which is similar to the CT in that it's got courses etc but 1) I can't really trust the power reading (RPE tells me that it tends to read a bit low) and 2) I can't download files out of it to calculate TSS.

I'm kind of thinking that whenever I'm home during the week, try and squeeze in 2x20s. On the road try and get whatever I can muster on the evil hotel training bikes, and on Sat/Sun try to get in 2 to 3 hours of L3 either on the trainer or outside.

In spite of that sounding rather aggressive, I think I'll get more time off the bike than I want due to travel anyway and things will work out. I do think that I need to add that "daily stress subtracter" to my copy of TSTWKT that I wrote about a while ago.

p.s. I meant Rick, not Ric...sorry :o

If the effort becomes "annoyingly hard" halfway through the second interval, such that you have to concentrate to finish it, then I'd say that you're doing them at about the right intensity.