Routine advice for extreme hardgainer.

Gello said:

Hello all,
I have been working out for several years now and getting almost
nowhere (well, I do stay in decent shape). I am one of the thinnest
boned males I know and have a hard time putting on muscle mass.

If your bones are thin, you need to see a physician about your bone
mineral density. If, on the other hand, it's your body that's thin,
you need to eat more. Eat well, yes, but definitely more. Any
exercise routine you can come up with will be worthless for putting on
muscle if you do not eat more.

Quoted message said:

It
seems as though the only way I can is if I maintain a body fat level
beyond what I am comfortable with and even then I can't seem to put much
on or gain very much in strength.

This is classic anorexic thinking. If one starts eating enough to
gain any muscle, even a minimal amount of body fat prompts panic. If
you maintain that type of thinking, you're already doomed.

Google this newsgroup for information on a "zig-zag" approach: i.e.,
"bulking" and "cutting."

Quoted message said:

My main goal is to get stronger but I
need to do it slowly and carefully due to old back, arm and calf
injuries. Well, I have a routine in mind to try and wanted some advice
on it.

I plan on doing the following twice a week:

5-10 min of cycling to warm up and stretching

Crunches on day one/Sit ups on day two

Why sit ups? Are your hip flexors particularly weak? They won't do
much for your abdominals.

Quoted message said:

"Butt crunches" (where you lay on your back and lift your pelvis twords
the ceiling)

Why?

Quoted message said:

Squat 2x warm up, 3x20

Bench press 2x warm up, 3x12

Barbell Bent over row 2x warm up, 3x15 or so (wold like to do 3x12 or
less but the higher weight I do I seem to over stress my back-same with
right bicep)

Good compound exercises. Your repetition scheme is good for
endurance, maybe some hypertrophy, but not for strength. You need
more weight, less repetition. If you have weaknesses in certain
places, there may be ways to get around it, but just doing lower
weights and lots of repetitions doesn't get you to your goal.

Quoted message said:

Stretching warm down then a glass of whey protein within an hour after
and a glass before bed every night.

Whey is good. Whey is not magic. Your overall diet is what matters.
--

JMW
http://www.rustyiron.net

JMW said:

Gello said:

Hello all,
I have been working out for several years now and getting almost
nowhere (well, I do stay in decent shape). I am one of the thinnest
boned males I know and have a hard time putting on muscle mass.

If your bones are thin, you need to see a physician about your bone
mineral density.

Really? No physician has ever commented on it. So, you are saying that
if I have thin bones something my be wrong with me? I have always
thought it was just how I was built. Maybe I should have said "small"
bones??

If, on the other hand, it's your body that's thin,

Quoted message said:

you need to eat more. Eat well, yes, but definitely more. Any
exercise routine you can come up with will be worthless for putting on
muscle if you do not eat more.

Well, my body isn't that thin due to the amount that I eat in order to
maintain weight (I weigh 180 at 5'11"😉 but, again, I have uh..."small"
bones.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It
seems as though the only way I can is if I maintain a body fat level
beyond what I am comfortable with and even then I can't seem to put much
on or gain very much in strength.

This is classic anorexic thinking. If one starts eating enough to
gain any muscle, even a minimal amount of body fat prompts panic. If
you maintain that type of thinking, you're already doomed.

Panic? Not sure where you got that but I would like to be a little
thinner. Does this mean that I am anorexic? Maybe I should see a
doctor about that, also?

Quoted message said:

Google this newsgroup for information on a "zig-zag" approach: i.e.,
"bulking" and "cutting."

Quoted message said:

My main goal is to get stronger but I
need to do it slowly and carefully due to old back, arm and calf
injuries. Well, I have a routine in mind to try and wanted some advice
on it.

I plan on doing the following twice a week:

5-10 min of cycling to warm up and stretching

Crunches on day one/Sit ups on day two

Why sit ups? Are your hip flexors particularly weak? They won't do
much for your abdominals.

Are you saying that I shouldn't do sit ups? Should I stick with the
crunches twice a week?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Butt crunches" (where you lay on your back and lift your pelvis twords
the ceiling)

Why?

For my lower back. Are they bad for me?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Squat 2x warm up, 3x20

Bench press 2x warm up, 3x12

Barbell Bent over row 2x warm up, 3x15 or so (wold like to do 3x12 or
less but the higher weight I do I seem to over stress my back-same with
right bicep)

Good compound exercises. Your repetition scheme is good for
endurance, maybe some hypertrophy, but not for strength. You need
more weight, less repetition. If you have weaknesses in certain
places, there may be ways to get around it, but just doing lower
weights and lots of repetitions doesn't get you to your goal.

So, what rep scheme would you suggest?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Stretching warm down then a glass of whey protein within an hour after
and a glass before bed every night.

Whey is good. Whey is not magic. Your overall diet is what matters.

Okay, thank you.

Gello

You need to eat more. If you eat enough, you should get bigger.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

"Gello" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hello all,
I have been working out for several years now and getting almost
nowhere (well, I do stay in decent shape). I am one of the thinnest
boned males I know and have a hard time putting on muscle mass. It
seems as though the only way I can is if I maintain a body fat level
beyond what I am comfortable with and even then I can't seem to put
much on or gain very much in strength. My main goal is to get
stronger but I need to do it slowly and carefully due to old back, arm
and calf injuries. Well, I have a routine in mind to try and wanted
some advice on it.

I plan on doing the following twice a week:

5-10 min of cycling to warm up and stretching

Crunches on day one/Sit ups on day two

"Butt crunches" (where you lay on your back and lift your pelvis
twords the ceiling)

Squat 2x warm up, 3x20

Bench press 2x warm up, 3x12

Barbell Bent over row 2x warm up, 3x15 or so (wold like to do 3x12 or
less but the higher weight I do I seem to over stress my back-same
with right bicep)

Stretching warm down then a glass of whey protein within an hour after
and a glass before bed every night.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Gello

Gello said:

JMW said:

Gello said:

Hello all,
I have been working out for several years now and getting almost
nowhere (well, I do stay in decent shape). I am one of the thinnest
boned males I know and have a hard time putting on muscle mass.

If your bones are thin, you need to see a physician about your bone
mineral density.

Really? No physician has ever commented on it. So, you are saying that
if I have thin bones something my be wrong with me? I have always
thought it was just how I was built. Maybe I should have said "small"
bones??

Maybe. If you're saying you have a small frame, that is even more
accurate. You may not be broad, but that doesn't mean you can't have
substantial muscle.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If, on the other hand, it's your body that's thin,
you need to eat more. Eat well, yes, but definitely more. Any
exercise routine you can come up with will be worthless for putting on
muscle if you do not eat more.

Well, my body isn't that thin due to the amount that I eat in order to
maintain weight (I weigh 180 at 5'11"😉 but, again, I have uh..."small"
bones.

At that height and weight, you're not thin, particularly if you have a
narrow frame. You just lack muscle.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It
seems as though the only way I can is if I maintain a body fat level
beyond what I am comfortable with and even then I can't seem to put much
on or gain very much in strength.

This is classic anorexic thinking. If one starts eating enough to
gain any muscle, even a minimal amount of body fat prompts panic. If
you maintain that type of thinking, you're already doomed.

Panic? Not sure where you got that but I would like to be a little
thinner. Does this mean that I am anorexic? Maybe I should see a
doctor about that, also?

No. Just think more about putting on muscle and less about putting on
fat. You can deal with the fat later, as long as you don't gain huge
amounts.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Google this newsgroup for information on a "zig-zag" approach: i.e.,
"bulking" and "cutting."

Quoted message said:

My main goal is to get stronger but I
need to do it slowly and carefully due to old back, arm and calf
injuries. Well, I have a routine in mind to try and wanted some advice
on it.

I plan on doing the following twice a week:

5-10 min of cycling to warm up and stretching

Crunches on day one/Sit ups on day two

Why sit ups? Are your hip flexors particularly weak? They won't do
much for your abdominals.

Are you saying that I shouldn't do sit ups? Should I stick with the
crunches twice a week?

That would be good.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Butt crunches" (where you lay on your back and lift your pelvis twords
the ceiling)

Why?

For my lower back. Are they bad for me?

Back extensions are good. So are hip extensions, also known as
"reverse hypers."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Squat 2x warm up, 3x20

Bench press 2x warm up, 3x12

Barbell Bent over row 2x warm up, 3x15 or so (wold like to do 3x12 or
less but the higher weight I do I seem to over stress my back-same with
right bicep)

Good compound exercises. Your repetition scheme is good for
endurance, maybe some hypertrophy, but not for strength. You need
more weight, less repetition. If you have weaknesses in certain
places, there may be ways to get around it, but just doing lower
weights and lots of repetitions doesn't get you to your goal.

So, what rep scheme would you suggest?

2-8 reps/set for maximal strength; 6-12 reps/set for hypertrophy
(muscle gain).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Stretching warm down then a glass of whey protein within an hour after
and a glass before bed every night.

Whey is good. Whey is not magic. Your overall diet is what matters.

Okay, thank you.

You're welcome.

Keep in mind that muscle must be stressed to some extent in order in
order to prompt the metabolic processes that cause muscular
adaptation. Just "going through the motions" with light weights won't
do much, except to improve muscular endurance. If you have old
injuries that cause weak spots, the best strategy is to modify the
movements to work around them, not just to limit yourself to light
weights.
--

JMW
http://www.rustyiron.net

Gello said:

JMW said:

Gello <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It seems as though the only way I can is if I maintain a body fat level
beyond what I am comfortable with and even then I can't seem to put much
on or gain very much in strength.

This is classic anorexic thinking. If one starts eating enough to
gain any muscle, even a minimal amount of body fat prompts panic. If
you maintain that type of thinking, you're already doomed.

Panic? Not sure where you got that but I would like to be a little
thinner. Does this mean that I am anorexic? Maybe I should see a
doctor about that, also?

I think his point was that to gain muscle, you have to be willing to
gain weight, and that likely means gaining some fat. Some of us are
uncomfortable with gaining weight, especially if we've been fat before;
I don't know if you fall into that category, but I know it's been a
challenge for me. I'm afraid of getting pudgy again, and I have to tell
myself to keep eating.

Sounds like you may have to make up your mind what's more important: to
gain muscle or to lose fat. CW is that it's hard to do both
simultaneously, though you may be able to if you haven't been training
long. At 5'11" and 180, you may be slightly overweight but not morbidly
so. Do you know what your bodyfat percentage is?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Squat 2x warm up, 3x20

Bench press 2x warm up, 3x12

Barbell Bent over row 2x warm up, 3x15 or so (wold like to do 3x12 or
less but the higher weight I do I seem to over stress my back-same with
right bicep)

Good compound exercises. Your repetition scheme is good for
endurance, maybe some hypertrophy, but not for strength. You need
more weight, less repetition. If you have weaknesses in certain
places, there may be ways to get around it, but just doing lower
weights and lots of repetitions doesn't get you to your goal.

So, what rep scheme would you suggest?

Well, he just said more weight and fewer reps as a general rule. Take
your squat for instance. To do 3x20, you'll have to use a much lighter
weight than if you did 3x8 or even 1x20 (a la Stuart McRoberts'
hardgainer strategy). I often see people recommending something in the
8-10 rep range for hypertrophy, though you mentioned strength as a major
goal as well (where the rep range is even lower and the weight would be
correspondingly higher?).

I'm no expert, but it's common sense that you'd listen to your body and
adjust accordingly. If you tend to "stress" your back at a certain
weight (I'm interpreting that to mean that you borderline injure
yourself), it'd be better to go a little lighter. Injuring yourself just
makes it harder to ever reach your goals.

On 2005-04-16, JMW penned:

Quoted message said:

Gello said:

For my lower back. Are they bad for me?

Back extensions are good. So are hip extensions, also known as
"reverse hypers."

At the risk of being proven wrong or yelled at ...

These sound like exercises to strengthen the lower back. According to
my chiro, people with lower back pain typically don't need to
strengthen their lower backs; they need to strengthen their abs. He
says that lower back pain typically comes from weak abs and tight
hamstrings, and that your typical person already has a
disproportionately strong back from all that sitting. This is the
same story that my husband's doctor told him when he had back
problems.

Soooo ... if Gello has lower back pain, doing exercises to strengthen
his lower back may not be the best idea. Focusing on abs and on
stretching his hamstrings might be better. If, on the other hand,
he's just trying to get a strong lower back and his "lower back"
comment wasn't in response to pain, nevermind.

I'm not a doctor; I don't pretend to be an expert; it's just something
that caught my eye.

--
monique

Monique Y. Mudama said:

On 2005-04-16, JMW penned:

Quoted message said:

Gello said:

For my lower back. Are they bad for me?

Back extensions are good. So are hip extensions, also known as
"reverse hypers."

At the risk of being proven wrong or yelled at ...

These sound like exercises to strengthen the lower back. According to
my chiro, people with lower back pain typically don't need to
strengthen their lower backs; they need to strengthen their abs. He
says that lower back pain typically comes from weak abs and tight
hamstrings, and that your typical person already has a
disproportionately strong back from all that sitting. This is the
same story that my husband's doctor told him when he had back
problems.

That's why I recommended getting rid of situps and doing more
crunches, instead.

Let me simplify it. The spine is just a series of a joints. It
flexes and it extends, just like many other joints. The rectus
abdominus muscles do not bend the hips, they flex the spine. That's
why crunches, not situps, are best for developing abs. The erector
spinae muscles extend the spine. Balance is needed between them to
support the spine. Both should be exercised.

Back extensions will exercise the erector spinae, along with other
muscles. Hip extensions or "reverse hypers" concentrate more on the
hamstrings and gluteus maximus.
--

JMW
http://www.rustyiron.net

Gello said:

(I weigh 180 at 5'11"😉 but, again, I have
uh..."small" bones.

I weigh less than you at 6'1", but numbers really don't mean much. Are
you all legs and no torso? At 5'11" and 180, you sound like an average
guy and not an extreme hardgainer which springs to my mind an ectomorph
with narrow shoulders and long, skinny legs.

Regardless, when I was attempting to gain size, I was eating every two
or three hours. Lots of homestyle weight gain blender drinks (whole
milk, bananas, ice cream, peanut butter, raw eggs). Drinking a quart of
O.J. after each workout. Lots of compound movements - squats, bench,
deadlift. And giving a damn about abs.

So far as small bones go, my wrists are 6 1/2" and my ankles are 9".
Regarding injuries, if you want to gain weight and muscle then you'll
find a way to work around your injuries.

Best of luck with your lifting.

--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/

JMW said:

Gello said:

JMW said:

Gello <[email hidden]> wrote:

>Hello all,
> I have been working out for several years now and getting almost
>nowhere (well, I do stay in decent shape). I am one of the thinnest
>boned males I know and have a hard time putting on muscle mass.

If your bones are thin, you need to see a physician about your bone
mineral density.

Really? No physician has ever commented on it. So, you are saying that
if I have thin bones something my be wrong with me? I have always
thought it was just how I was built. Maybe I should have said "small"
bones??

Maybe. If you're saying you have a small frame, that is even more
accurate. You may not be broad, but that doesn't mean you can't have
substantial muscle.

Yes, small frame.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If, on the other hand, it's your body that's thin,
you need to eat more. Eat well, yes, but definitely more. Any
exercise routine you can come up with will be worthless for putting on
muscle if you do not eat more.

Well, my body isn't that thin due to the amount that I eat in order to
maintain weight (I weigh 180 at 5'11"😉 but, again, I have uh..."small"
bones.

At that height and weight, you're not thin, particularly if you have a
narrow frame. You just lack muscle.

Well, I DO have some muscle on me due to working out (wrongly, I guess)
for a couple of years. When I started I couldn't do three push ups and
now I can do over 30 (last time I tried it was closer to 40...36 or 39,
I think) but I still seem to do smaller weights and have "love handles"
but I am not much over weight if any. I lurk here and see people
benching well over 200x12 and get a little down (I do like 115 for 3x12
reps).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>It
>seems as though the only way I can is if I maintain a body fat level
>beyond what I am comfortable with and even then I can't seem to put much
>on or gain very much in strength.

This is classic anorexic thinking. If one starts eating enough to
gain any muscle, even a minimal amount of body fat prompts panic. If
you maintain that type of thinking, you're already doomed.

Panic? Not sure where you got that but I would like to be a little
thinner. Does this mean that I am anorexic? Maybe I should see a
doctor about that, also?

No. Just think more about putting on muscle and less about putting on
fat. You can deal with the fat later, as long as you don't gain huge
amounts.

Okay, is there any concern about the fat effecting health? I don't have
any history of high blood pressure or heart problems (none in family,
either).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Google this newsgroup for information on a "zig-zag" approach: i.e.,
"bulking" and "cutting."

>My main goal is to get stronger but I
>need to do it slowly and carefully due to old back, arm and calf
>injuries. Well, I have a routine in mind to try and wanted some advice
>on it.
>
>I plan on doing the following twice a week:
>
>5-10 min of cycling to warm up and stretching
>
>Crunches on day one/Sit ups on day two

Why sit ups? Are your hip flexors particularly weak? They won't do
much for your abdominals.

Are you saying that I shouldn't do sit ups? Should I stick with the
crunches twice a week?

That would be good.

Cool, I have been pausing at the top and do like 90. Is this good or
should I hold some weight? Btw, I work out at home with free weights
and a "cage"(?? It is a large structure with movable bars to hold the
weight).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>"Butt crunches" (where you lay on your back and lift your pelvis twords
>the ceiling)

Why?

For my lower back. Are they bad for me?

Back extensions are good. So are hip extensions, also known as
"reverse hypers."

Thanks, I'll look these up to see which I can do at home.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Squat 2x warm up, 3x20
>
>Bench press 2x warm up, 3x12
>
>Barbell Bent over row 2x warm up, 3x15 or so (wold like to do 3x12 or
>less but the higher weight I do I seem to over stress my back-same with
>right bicep)

Good compound exercises. Your repetition scheme is good for
endurance, maybe some hypertrophy, but not for strength. You need
more weight, less repetition. If you have weaknesses in certain
places, there may be ways to get around it, but just doing lower
weights and lots of repetitions doesn't get you to your goal.

So, what rep scheme would you suggest?

2-8 reps/set for maximal strength; 6-12 reps/set for hypertrophy
(muscle gain).

Wish I had a partner. The weight at those reps scares me to do alone.
I will increase to a level that feels safe and see how far I can go.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Stretching warm down then a glass of whey protein within an hour after
>and a glass before bed every night.

Whey is good. Whey is not magic. Your overall diet is what matters.

Okay, thank you.

You're welcome.

Keep in mind that muscle must be stressed to some extent in order in
order to prompt the metabolic processes that cause muscular
adaptation. Just "going through the motions" with light weights won't
do much, except to improve muscular endurance. If you have old
injuries that cause weak spots, the best strategy is to modify the
movements to work around them, not just to limit yourself to light
weights.

Well, even at the light weights I would do it to failure and would,
usually, be sore the next day. I thought that that was an indicator of
growth. I believe that I was wrong, now, and will try to do heavier
weights. There is soooo much [censored] out there telling me to do this, do
that, don't do this, don't do that that I get confused about what would
work for me. Thanks for the time and info!!

Gello

Preacher said:

Gello said:

JMW said:

Gello <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>It seems as though the only way I can is if I maintain a body fat level
>beyond what I am comfortable with and even then I can't seem to put much
>on or gain very much in strength.

This is classic anorexic thinking. If one starts eating enough to
gain any muscle, even a minimal amount of body fat prompts panic. If
you maintain that type of thinking, you're already doomed.

Panic? Not sure where you got that but I would like to be a little
thinner. Does this mean that I am anorexic? Maybe I should see a
doctor about that, also?

I think his point was that to gain muscle, you have to be willing to
gain weight, and that likely means gaining some fat. Some of us are
uncomfortable with gaining weight, especially if we've been fat before;
I don't know if you fall into that category, but I know it's been a
challenge for me. I'm afraid of getting pudgy again, and I have to tell
myself to keep eating.

Yes, I was in that category. My pre teen years were spent as a "Fat
Skinny" kid. I had a small frame but was fat (YUCK!). That is the
worst! It is different when you have a "thick" (??) frame and are
overweight. At least they can carry it well. Then, I discovered
cigarettes, drugs and women and the weight dropped off. Now, in my
middle years I am gaining a little and I don't like it but am not
freaking out about it. I would like to be more....uh....cut.

Quoted message said:

Sounds like you may have to make up your mind what's more important: to
gain muscle or to lose fat. CW is that it's hard to do both
simultaneously, though you may be able to if you haven't been training
long. At 5'11" and 180, you may be slightly overweight but not morbidly
so. Do you know what your bodyfat percentage is?

No, I don't know what my BF% is but my wife thinks that I am in good
shape. I guess we are always our worst critics. My ideal would be to
gain muscle and loose fat but, for now, I will focus on gaining muscle
because it seems like I'll be able to loose the fat easier with a little
more muscle, correct?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Squat 2x warm up, 3x20
>
>Bench press 2x warm up, 3x12
>
>Barbell Bent over row 2x warm up, 3x15 or so (wold like to do 3x12 or
>less but the higher weight I do I seem to over stress my back-same with
>right bicep)

Good compound exercises. Your repetition scheme is good for
endurance, maybe some hypertrophy, but not for strength. You need
more weight, less repetition. If you have weaknesses in certain
places, there may be ways to get around it, but just doing lower
weights and lots of repetitions doesn't get you to your goal.

So, what rep scheme would you suggest?

Well, he just said more weight and fewer reps as a general rule. Take
your squat for instance. To do 3x20, you'll have to use a much lighter
weight than if you did 3x8 or even 1x20 (a la Stuart McRoberts'
hardgainer strategy). I often see people recommending something in the
8-10 rep range for hypertrophy, though you mentioned strength as a major
goal as well (where the rep range is even lower and the weight would be
correspondingly higher?).

I remember reading in the HIT faq that, for squats, the 20 rep area was
best. Is this incorrect? I really wish there was some good research on
the subject to read but, like I said in the other email, there is soo
much [censored] (correct and incorrect, I guess) out there!

Quoted message said:

I'm no expert, but it's common sense that you'd listen to your body and
adjust accordingly. If you tend to "stress" your back at a certain
weight (I'm interpreting that to mean that you borderline injure
yourself), it'd be better to go a little lighter. Injuring yourself just
makes it harder to ever reach your goals.

Well, I did some squats today and my back is a little tender. It
usually goes away but it makes be stop and think "am I doing this right?".

Gello

Usenet Posting said:

Gello said:

Hello all,
I have been working out for several years now and getting almost
nowhere (well, I do stay in decent shape). I am one of the thinnest
boned males I know and have a hard time putting on muscle mass. It
seems as though the only way I can is if I maintain a body fat level
beyond what I am comfortable with and even then I can't seem to put much
on or gain very much in strength. My main goal is to get stronger but I
need to do it slowly and carefully due to old back, arm and calf
injuries. Well, I have a routine in mind to try and wanted some advice
on it.

Eat calorie dense foods until you are sick and then have a bit more.
Do this every day for a month. You'll be surprised at the result but
you may also want to hurl yourself off a bridge. If your body wants
to be thin it is going to be extraordinarily stubborn about it.

It seems like my body doesn't like to put on muscle but it may just be
my workout. "Eating until I am sick" doesn't sound very appealing. I
read about the diet below and think I may use the advice to eat a lot
after my work out. A lot for me is like two eggs, a glass of whey with
skim milk, a bagel with cream cheese and, maybe, a carrot. Much more
than that and I would, probably, vomit. I'll try more but am not sure
how much more I'll be able to do.

Gello

Quoted message said:

Google "Mike Lane Diet" in this newsgroup. That guy was a nut but I
adapted a few of the principles and it works even in the absence of
hormonal assistance.

--
I've perfected humility.

Gello said:

JMW said:

Gello said:

JMW wrote:

>Gello <[email hidden]> wrote:

No. Just think more about putting on muscle and less about putting on
fat. You can deal with the fat later, as long as you don't gain huge
amounts.

Okay, is there any concern about the fat effecting health? I don't have
any history of high blood pressure or heart problems (none in family,
either).

If you're obese, there's reason to worry. If you put on a few pounds
of fat while gaining equal or greater weight in muscle, there's on
reason to worry.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are you saying that I shouldn't do sit ups? Should I stick with the
crunches twice a week?

That would be good.

Cool, I have been pausing at the top and do like 90. Is this good or
should I hold some weight?

Add weight. The rectus abdominus muscles are no different from the
rest, and they respond to the same sort of set/rep/weight schemes.

Quoted message said:

Btw, I work out at home with free weights
and a "cage"(?? It is a large structure with movable bars to hold the
weight).

That's great.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2-8 reps/set for maximal strength; 6-12 reps/set for hypertrophy
(muscle gain).

Wish I had a partner. The weight at those reps scares me to do alone.
I will increase to a level that feels safe and see how far I can go.

If you have a power cage, you should be able to set the safety bars to
spot yourself for bench press and squats.
--

JMW
http://www.rustyiron.net

Gello said:

My pre teen years were spent as a "Fat
Skinny" kid. I had a small frame but was fat (YUCK!). That is the
worst! It is different when you have a "thick" (??) frame and are
overweight. At least they can carry it well. Then, I discovered
cigarettes, drugs and women and the weight dropped off. Now, in my
middle years I am gaining a little and I don't like it but am not
freaking out about it. I would like to be more....uh....cut.

Quoted message said:

I don't know what my BF% is but my wife thinks that I am in good
shape. I guess we are always our worst critics. My ideal would be to
gain muscle and loose fat but, for now, I will focus on gaining muscle
because it seems like I'll be able to loose the fat easier with a little
more muscle, correct?

That's what they say. Muscle is metabolically expensive tissue, and
requires calories for maintenance. But at your height and weight, you
can lose pretty easily. You don't even have to cut calories that
drastically - CW is 500 calories/day to lose 1 lb/week.

Without knowing bodyfat percentage, it's all a guessing game, but
according to your height and weight, you would be considered slightly
overweight or at the high end of 'normal' (an arbitrary designation, to
be sure). That's not the impression I had at the beginning of the
thread; when I heard extreme hardgainer, I thought you were very skinny.
That not being the case, you could probably lose 7-10 pounds and look
pretty good, assuming you lose mostly fat.

Quoted message said:

I remember reading in the HIT faq that, for squats, the 20 rep area was
best. Is this incorrect? I really wish there was some good research on
the subject to read but, like I said in the other email, there is soo
much [censored] (correct and incorrect, I guess) out there!

John Williams summed up what I read in here all the time: 2-8 reps/set
for maximal strength; 6-12 reps/set for hypertrophy (muscle gain). But
like I said, Stuart McRobert (an author who is wellknown for an approach
to bodybuilding for hardgainers) does recommend 20 rep squats, but only
for 1 set. As far as I can tell, he seems to think that there is some
variability in optimal rep ranges from person to person.

From what I can tell, the general idea is that your muscles need to be
challenged with heavier loads to grow bigger. Squatting the kind of
weight that you can do 3x20 will help your muscular endurance but not be
a big enough load to cause them to grow bigger.

Quoted message said:

Well, I did some squats today and my back is a little tender. It
usually goes away but it makes be stop and think "am I doing this right?".

Have you had someone watch you and critique your form? I think you're
asking the right question, and you need someone knowledgeable who can
give you a decent answer. If you have the technology, I've noted at
least one person on m.f.w. who posted digital video of themselves
squatting, and they received all kinds of helpful feedback. I wish I had
that kind of camera, and it would be helpful to get some input on my on
form. We don't have a DV camera, but my daughter has a digital photo
camera that can take a short video clip; maybe that would work.

"Preacher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gello said:

My pre teen years were spent as a "Fat
Skinny" kid. I had a small frame but was fat (YUCK!). That is the
worst! It is different when you have a "thick" (??) frame and are
overweight. At least they can carry it well. Then, I discovered
cigarettes, drugs and women and the weight dropped off. Now, in my
middle years I am gaining a little and I don't like it but am not
freaking out about it. I would like to be more....uh....cut.

Quoted message said:

I don't know what my BF% is but my wife thinks that I am in good
shape. I guess we are always our worst critics. My ideal would be to
gain muscle and loose fat but, for now, I will focus on gaining muscle
because it seems like I'll be able to loose the fat easier with a little
more muscle, correct?

That's what they say. Muscle is metabolically expensive tissue, and
requires calories for maintenance. But at your height and weight, you
can lose pretty easily. You don't even have to cut calories that
drastically - CW is 500 calories/day to lose 1 lb/week.

Without knowing bodyfat percentage, it's all a guessing game, but
according to your height and weight, you would be considered slightly
overweight or at the high end of 'normal' (an arbitrary designation, to
be sure). That's not the impression I had at the beginning of the
thread; when I heard extreme hardgainer, I thought you were very skinny.
That not being the case, you could probably lose 7-10 pounds and look
pretty good, assuming you lose mostly fat.

Quoted message said:

I remember reading in the HIT faq that, for squats, the 20 rep area was
best. Is this incorrect? I really wish there was some good research on
the subject to read but, like I said in the other email, there is soo
much [censored] (correct and incorrect, I guess) out there!

John Williams summed up what I read in here all the time: 2-8 reps/set
for maximal strength; 6-12 reps/set for hypertrophy (muscle gain). But
like I said, Stuart McRobert (an author who is wellknown for an approach
to bodybuilding for hardgainers) does recommend 20 rep squats, but only
for 1 set. As far as I can tell, he seems to think that there is some
variability in optimal rep ranges from person to person.

From what I can tell, the general idea is that your muscles need to be
challenged with heavier loads to grow bigger. Squatting the kind of
weight that you can do 3x20 will help your muscular endurance but not be
a big enough load to cause them to grow bigger.

That isn't the 20-rep squat that they are talking about.

The proper technique is, starting with a weight that you can squat with
proper form for 10 reps, do 10 reps. Pause and rest _while holding the
bar on your back_. Do another rep. Repeat until you have done a total of
20. Note that it will take a while to build up your endurance enough -
you shouldn't be able to do it the first few attempts.

Supposed to be very intensive.

And, if you are doing it properly, you won't have the strength to do a
second set for quite a while.

Art

Preacher said:

Stuart McRobert (an author who is wellknown
for an approach to bodybuilding for hardgainers)
does recommend 20 rep squats, but only for 1 set.

Twenty repetition breathing squats certainly worked for me as a
20-something. I was doing sets with 185. Full squats, working to 20
reps for sets. I'd start out with six to ten consecutive reps and then
take a huge gulp of air and continue with four or five reps, another
huge gulp of air and then complete the 20 reps, sometimes one rep
followed by a pause for a big breath, and single my way to the magic
20. Tremendous pump in the quads and, I imagine, blood rushing
throughout my body.

McRobert's idea and, I believe, Robert Kennedy as well as other
proponents of the 20-rep sets was that full squats work the entire body
and encourage growth across the system and not just in your legs. I
believe that's the truth. And I remember the legendary Paul Anderson's
name attached to an article which encouraged trainers to do full squats
without any weight at all in order to firm up your legs.

http://www.cbass.com/IMAGES/ANDERS~2.JPG

Randall Strossen's name appears in that jpeg. He was another, iirc,
20-rep squat fan. (Googles) http://davedraper.com/super-squats.html

--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/

Gello said:

Usenet Posting said:

Gello said:

Hello all,
I have been working out for several years now and getting almost
nowhere (well, I do stay in decent shape). I am one of the thinnest
boned males I know and have a hard time putting on muscle mass. It
seems as though the only way I can is if I maintain a body fat level
beyond what I am comfortable with and even then I can't seem to put much
on or gain very much in strength. My main goal is to get stronger but I
need to do it slowly and carefully due to old back, arm and calf
injuries. Well, I have a routine in mind to try and wanted some advice
on it.

Eat calorie dense foods until you are sick and then have a bit more.
Do this every day for a month. You'll be surprised at the result but
you may also want to hurl yourself off a bridge. If your body wants
to be thin it is going to be extraordinarily stubborn about it.

It seems like my body doesn't like to put on muscle but it may just be
my workout. "Eating until I am sick" doesn't sound very appealing. I
read about the diet below and think I may use the advice to eat a lot
after my work out. A lot for me is like two eggs, a glass of whey with
skim milk, a bagel with cream cheese and, maybe, a carrot. Much more
than that and I would, probably, vomit. I'll try more but am not sure
how much more I'll be able to do.

In a blender, combine 1 pint skim milk powder, 1 pint water, 1 tsp
creatine powder (optional), 3 scoops of whey, 6 raw whole eggs, frozen
berries. Drink fast before your gut figures out what's going on.

-----------
Proton Soup

"And all this peace has been deceiving,
I need some wind to get me sailing"

Usenet Posting said:

Gello said:

Usenet Posting said:

On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 15:18:30 GMT, Gello <[email hidden]> wrote:

>Hello all,
> I have been working out for several years now and getting almost
>nowhere (well, I do stay in decent shape). I am one of the thinnest
>boned males I know and have a hard time putting on muscle mass. It
>seems as though the only way I can is if I maintain a body fat level
>beyond what I am comfortable with and even then I can't seem to put much
>on or gain very much in strength. My main goal is to get stronger but I
>need to do it slowly and carefully due to old back, arm and calf
>injuries. Well, I have a routine in mind to try and wanted some advice
>on it.

Eat calorie dense foods until you are sick and then have a bit more.
Do this every day for a month. You'll be surprised at the result but
you may also want to hurl yourself off a bridge. If your body wants
to be thin it is going to be extraordinarily stubborn about it.

It seems like my body doesn't like to put on muscle but it may just be
my workout. "Eating until I am sick" doesn't sound very appealing. I
read about the diet below and think I may use the advice to eat a lot
after my work out. A lot for me is like two eggs, a glass of whey with
skim milk, a bagel with cream cheese and, maybe, a carrot. Much more
than that and I would, probably, vomit. I'll try more but am not sure
how much more I'll be able to do.

Gello

Quoted message said:

Google "Mike Lane Diet" in this newsgroup. That guy was a nut but I
adapted a few of the principles and it works even in the absence of
hormonal assistance.

You're missing most of the point. Calorie dense foods are critical.

I am? How's that? I said that "it doesn't sound very appealing" not "I
am not going to try it".

Quoted message said:

Whatever man, it don;t make no nevermind to me but you have to
understand that if you eat the way your body wants you're going to
remain skinny.

Did you skip over the "I'll try more" part?

Gello

Quoted message said:

--
I've perfected humility.

Gello said:

Usenet Posting said:

Whatever man, it don;t make no nevermind to me but you have to
understand that if you eat the way your body wants you're going to
remain skinny.

Did you skip over the "I'll try more" part?

Nah, Mike's just a [censored], that's all.
--

JMW
http://www.rustyiron.net

On 2005-04-18, Usenet Posting penned:

Quoted message said:

Whatever man, it don;t make no nevermind to me but you have to
understand that if you eat the way your body wants you're going to
remain skinny.

I'm confused by the fact that the general philosophy on this group seems
to be, drinking beyond your thirst is bad, but eating beyond your hunger
is a good idea (if you want to bulk up). Maybe there's no connection
between the two ... it just seems odd. If you're working out hard,
aren't you naturally more hungry?

--
monique