round back stiff-legged deadlift

"Michael Shuldman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

There's a guy at my gym, and he does a pretty heavy sldl of some
sort, but he concentrates on rounding his back. He starts with the
bar a little of the floor, the whole back, lower and upper, heavily
rounded, and slowly extends it to a straight position, then rounds
it back down, the bar again closing down on the floor, and then up
again. The legs remain very fixed in the same position.

There's always people doing weird stuff in the gym, and I would
normally just chalk it up to that, but over time I've become i
interested. This guy is a med-student and knows much more about
anatomy and related stuff than me, and seems to think a long the
lines of "progress gradually and joints, bones, etc. will become
stronger in time", which normally makes sense.

This guy started on the back-extension machine, progressing to
adding weights on his shoulders/back (common in my gym), up to 40kg,
and then to this sldl-variant, where he hauls 110+kg.

Now, I know that with even a light weight, attempting something
similar at this point will damage my back. I know this because I
remember at least one recent occasion where I, while warming up,
lost my concentration, and felt the "bad" kind of pain in my lower
back, as I let it round. This was with a weight of only 90kg.

What do others think of this exercise? I can see it targets some
muscles I don't otherwise train, except staticly, but most of what
I've read says you should not round your back when lifting heavy.
I've started experimenting with it a little, doing a few sets now
and then with just the bar, but would like to know more about it
before progressing. I don't want to hurt my back.

It can be a useful exercise but please start very light and stay
conservative with the weight. I have most often seen this described as
starting upright, rounding down slowly, then returning to the upright
position. There is a valid argument for "bad" training in that a
certain amount of it might help you be more resistant to injury, but
unless you have a compelling reason to do so, always be conservative
with the weight and be slow and deliberate in your movements.

A similarly "bad" movement I do is, standing straight to start, lowering
a light kettlebell held with both hands to the side of one heel. The
idea of bending and twisting at the same time is the same sort of "bad"
as rounding the lower back, and I've found this a good move for me. I
also sometimes practice it with no weight but touching one or both hands
to the ground to the same spot at the side of my heel. I always stand
completely upright between working each side, and never do more than a
few reps.

Both of these movements, by the way, are discussed in Pavel's "Beyond
Bodybuilding" http://www.kbnj.com/bb.htm complete with instructions.

A more common way to work on round back strength is sandbag lifting -
buy a duffel bag, fill it with sand, and practice shouldering it.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Michael Shuldman said:

There's a guy at my gym, and he does a pretty heavy sldl of some
sort, but he concentrates on rounding his back. He starts with the
bar a little of the floor, the whole back, lower and upper, heavily
rounded, and slowly extends it to a straight position, then rounds
it back down, the bar again closing down on the floor, and then up
again. The legs remain very fixed in the same position.

There's always people doing weird stuff in the gym, and I would
normally just chalk it up to that, but over time I've become i
interested. This guy is a med-student and knows much more about
anatomy and related stuff than me, and seems to think a long the
lines of "progress gradually and joints, bones, etc. will become
stronger in time", which normally makes sense.

This guy started on the back-extension machine, progressing to
adding weights on his shoulders/back (common in my gym), up to 40kg,
and then to this sldl-variant, where he hauls 110+kg.

Now, I know that with even a light weight, attempting something
similar at this point will damage my back. I know this because I
remember at least one recent occasion where I, while warming up,
lost my concentration, and felt the "bad" kind of pain in my lower
back, as I let it round. This was with a weight of only 90kg.

What do others think of this exercise? I can see it targets some
muscles I don't otherwise train, except staticly, but most of what
I've read says you should not round your back when lifting heavy.
I've started experimenting with it a little, doing a few sets now
and then with just the bar, but would like to know more about it
before progressing. I don't want to hurt my back.

I've seen some people do that too. I personally would not advise anyone
to do that with heavy weights. I've suffered two back injuries when I
was younger and it's not pleasant. The first time was due to bent over
barbell rows with a rounded back. Big mistake. Personally, I don't see
any reason to do SLDL with a rounded back since doing it with a flat or
slightly arched back also strengthens the area and reduces the risk of
injury. The idea of lowering the bar down to your feet to get more
stretch in your hamstrings is an old school of thought which some people
still follow.

The fact that he's a med student means nothing in my eyes. I certainly
would not take weight training advice from medical doctors unless they
specialize in sports training and injuries with field experience.

I think SLDL is a great exercise but you have to be ever so careful with
your back. At least that's my opinion.

--
Ed
http://everythingec.com/startingpoint

Michael Shuldman said:

There's a guy at my gym, and he does a pretty heavy sldl of some
sort, but he concentrates on rounding his back. He starts with the
bar a little of the floor, the whole back, lower and upper, heavily
rounded, and slowly extends it to a straight position, then rounds
it back down, the bar again closing down on the floor, and then up
again. The legs remain very fixed in the same position.

There's always people doing weird stuff in the gym, and I would
normally just chalk it up to that, but over time I've become i
interested. This guy is a med-student and knows much more about
anatomy and related stuff than me, and seems to think a long the
lines of "progress gradually and joints, bones, etc. will become
stronger in time", which normally makes sense.

This guy started on the back-extension machine, progressing to
adding weights on his shoulders/back (common in my gym), up to 40kg,
and then to this sldl-variant, where he hauls 110+kg.

Now, I know that with even a light weight, attempting something
similar at this point will damage my back. I know this because I
remember at least one recent occasion where I, while warming up,
lost my concentration, and felt the "bad" kind of pain in my lower
back, as I let it round. This was with a weight of only 90kg.

What do others think of this exercise? I can see it targets some
muscles I don't otherwise train, except staticly, but most of what
I've read says you should not round your back when lifting heavy.
I've started experimenting with it a little, doing a few sets now
and then with just the bar, but would like to know more about it
before progressing. I don't want to hurt my back.

You can do pretty much any movement, just so long as the muscles,
tendons, tissues, etc involved aren't overloaded.

Though, it is up to you to choose which exercises are worthwhile for
yourself. With a bit of common sense.

This is why most people choose to perform squats, benches, deadlifts,
rows, chinups, cleans, etc as these exercises are practical and work
well.

Nameless: The voice of reason.

Nameless said:

This is why most people choose to perform squats, benches, deadlifts,
rows, chinups, cleans, etc as these exercises are practical and work
well.

"Most people choose to perform squats, benches, deadlifts, rows,
chinups, cleans"?!?

You don't get out much, do you? You ever actually go to a typical
gym/fitness club? The 90% floor space of machines, and the 10% for free
weights, tell you anything?

David

Seriously, at my gym. On any given day after work about 6pm, there are 100+
people in the gym. I usually work out 3-4 times per week. Of those times I
might see 1 other person in a week long span doing squats. I have NEVER
seen anyone do deads, however I do see guys that come in religiously to do
bench and curls. I see guys who come in and seem to think that every piece
of machinery is for curls. They stand in the squat rack in front of the
mirror doing curls.
"David Cohen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Nameless said:

This is why most people choose to perform squats, benches, deadlifts,
rows, chinups, cleans, etc as these exercises are practical and work
well.

"Most people choose to perform squats, benches, deadlifts, rows,
chinups, cleans"?!?

You don't get out much, do you? You ever actually go to a typical
gym/fitness club? The 90% floor space of machines, and the 10% for free
weights, tell you anything?

David

Yup - sounds like the gym I'm a member of. (the only reason I go there
is for their nice swimming pool) Nice shiny machines for just about
every isolation movement you could think of, and one rusty squat cage
and some rusty freeweights in random order. Not that I care much -
I've got all the freeweights I need at home - but I do notice the
emphasis.

LM

On 20 May 2005 01:57:41 -0700, "David Cohen" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Most people choose to perform squats, benches, deadlifts, rows,
chinups, cleans"?!?

You left off the etc after the word cleans. The leg press machine for
example, is another good exercise device.

Quoted message said:

You don't get out much, do you?

I train in my garage.

Quoted message said:

You ever actually go to a typical gym/fitness club?

When I did have a gym membership, the gym I went to had about an equal
ratio of machines to free weights in terms of floor space. Must have
been one of those 'hardcore' gyms then.

Quoted message said:

The 90% floor space of machines, and the 10% for free
weights, tell you anything?

It tells me that people pull facts and figures out of their butts.

"Nameless" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

David Cohen said:

"Most people choose to perform squats, benches, deadlifts, rows,
chinups, cleans"?!?

You left off the etc after the word cleans. The leg press machine for
example, is another good exercise device.

Yes, that really makes your asinine statement MUCH more accurate.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You don't get out much, do you?

I train in my garage.

As long as you're living in your parents' basement, why not?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You ever actually go to a typical gym/fitness club?

When I did have a gym membership, the gym I went to had about an equal
ratio of machines to free weights in terms of floor space. Must have
been one of those 'hardcore' gyms then.

Riiigghht. You are definitely the "hardcore" type.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The 90% floor space of machines, and the 10% for free
weights, tell you anything?

It tells me that people pull facts and figures out of their butts.

You present an awesome defense of your asinine statement.

David

tirrell payton said:

Seriously, at my gym. On any given day after work about 6pm, there
are 100+ people in the gym. I usually work out 3-4 times per week.
Of those times I might see 1 other person in a week long span doing
squats. I have NEVER seen anyone do deads, however I do see guys
that come in religiously to do bench and curls. I see guys who
come
in and seem to think that every piece of machinery is for curls.
They stand in the squat rack in front of the mirror doing curls.

Doesn't that just [censored] you off - you come in hyped for some heavy
squats and end up waiting while some guy takes 5 minutes between sets
to do curls on the power-rack?

--
00doc

Michael Shuldman said:

There's a guy at my gym, and he does a pretty heavy sldl of some
sort, but he concentrates on rounding his back. He starts with the
bar a little of the floor, the whole back, lower and upper, heavily
rounded, and slowly extends it to a straight position, then rounds
it back down, the bar again closing down on the floor, and then up
again. The legs remain very fixed in the same position.

Quoted message said:

What do others think of this exercise?

I think that's unwise to do rounded back lifts heavy on purpose.
It's risking disk and other spine injuries. Also, just cause this
guy can get away with it doesn't mean most everybody else will too.

David Cohen said:

"Nameless" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

David Cohen said:

"Most people choose to perform squats, benches, deadlifts, rows,
chinups, cleans"?!?

You left off the etc after the word cleans. The leg press machine for
example, is another good exercise device.

Yes, that really makes your asinine statement MUCH more accurate.

What exactly do you think I mean by 'most people'. Remember this is a
weights newsgroup. In this context, 'most people' means people who
workout with weights.

You're nickpicking and looking for an argument.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You don't get out much, do you?

I train in my garage.

As long as you're living in your parents' basement, why not?

How original and witty.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You ever actually go to a typical gym/fitness club?

When I did have a gym membership, the gym I went to had about an equal
ratio of machines to free weights in terms of floor space. Must have
been one of those 'hardcore' gyms then.

Riiigghht. You are definitely the "hardcore" type.

I was being sarcastic with the 'hardcore' comment.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The 90% floor space of machines, and the 10% for free
weights, tell you anything?

It tells me that people pull facts and figures out of their butts.

You present an awesome defense of your asinine statement.

You mean the edited statement taken out of context.

"Nameless" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

David Cohen said:

"Nameless" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"David Cohen" <[email hidden]> wrote:

>"Most people choose to perform squats, benches, deadlifts, rows,
>chinups, cleans"?!?

You left off the etc after the word cleans. The leg press machine for
example, is another good exercise device.

Yes, that really makes your asinine statement MUCH more accurate.

What exactly do you think I mean by 'most people'. Remember this is a
weights newsgroup. In this context, 'most people' means people who
workout with weights.

"Most people" =/= "most people in MFW".

Quoted message said:

You're nickpicking and looking for an argument.

Well, duh! Finally figured that out?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>You don't get out much, do you?

I train in my garage.

As long as you're living in your parents' basement, why not?

How original and witty.

It wasn't really my best work, sorry.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> You ever actually go to a typical gym/fitness club?

When I did have a gym membership, the gym I went to had about an equal
ratio of machines to free weights in terms of floor space. Must have
been one of those 'hardcore' gyms then.

Riiigghht. You are definitely the "hardcore" type.

I was being sarcastic with the 'hardcore' comment.

The flux capacitor of my sarcastimometer is on the fritz.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>The 90% floor space of machines, and the 10% for free
>weights, tell you anything?

It tells me that people pull facts and figures out of their butts.

You present an awesome defense of your asinine statement.

You mean the edited statement taken out of context.

Yes, the edited statement taken out of context, exactly.

David

Since we're on the topic of "machines vs freeweights"

wouldn't you all think that machines are good for beginners who have
no idea in hell how to lift? as in "proper technique"?

real question, here.

spam away!

Suzie

Seth Breidbart said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Nameless blah said:

On 20 May 2005 01:57:41 -0700, "David Cohen" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Most people choose to perform squats, benches, deadlifts, rows,
chinups, cleans"?!?

You left off the etc after the word cleans. The leg press machine for
example, is another good exercise device.

For hanging a towel on.

Or maybe for calf raises.

Seth

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Suzie Hall <[email hidden]> wrote in news:42d55659$1_2@spool9-
west.superfeed.net:

Quoted message said:

Since we're on the topic of "machines vs freeweights"

wouldn't you all think that machines are good for beginners who have
no idea in hell how to lift? as in "proper technique"?

No.

Quoted message said:

real question, here.

You're welcome.

Quoted message said:

spam away!

Y'know my kid wants to learn to play lacrosse... but it's a tough game so
the coach has them playing field hockey instead. And I want to learn to play
the flute but the fingering's all hard so my teacher has me practicing on
the kazoo for now...

Hugh

--
Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will attend no other.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Hugh Beyer said:

Suzie Hall <[email hidden]> wrote in news:42d55659$1_2@spool9-
west.superfeed.net:

Quoted message said:

Since we're on the topic of "machines vs freeweights"

wouldn't you all think that machines are good for beginners who have
no idea in hell how to lift? as in "proper technique"?

No.

Quoted message said:

real question, here.

You're welcome.

Quoted message said:

spam away!

Y'know my kid wants to learn to play lacrosse... but it's a tough game so
the coach has them playing field hockey instead. And I want to learn to play
the flute but the fingering's all hard so my teacher has me practicing on
the kazoo for now...

I often wonder what motivates people to train? I train to be athletic
and to be able to move - powerfully, with endurance, etc. I like to be
in control of my body. I don't see why i would give up that control to a
machine.

--
Keith

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Hugh Beyer said:

Suzie Hall <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Since we're on the topic of "machines vs freeweights"

wouldn't you all think that machines are good for beginners who have
no idea in hell how to lift? as in "proper technique"?

No.

Quoted message said:

real question, here.

You're welcome.

Quoted message said:

spam away!

Y'know my kid wants to learn to play lacrosse... but it's a tough game so
the coach has them playing field hockey instead. And I want to learn to
play
the flute but the fingering's all hard so my teacher has me practicing on
the kazoo for now...

I often wonder what motivates people to train? I train to be athletic
and to be able to move - powerfully, with endurance, etc. I like to be
in control of my body. I don't see why i would give up that control to a
machine.

That's what Sarah Conner kept asking herself, as she was tracked down by a
TERMINATOR!!

Open the pod bay door, HAL.

David

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I often wonder what motivates people to train? I train to be athletic
and to be able to move - powerfully, with endurance, etc. I like to be
in control of my body. I don't see why i would give up that control to a
machine.

When I was growing up, if you wanted to lift weights, you went to an
oldtimer to put you on a program. You would then spend a year or two
learning basic lifts, etc. There was a real emphisas on learning new skills
and taking your time to lay the foundation for a life time activity.

Nowadays, everyone wants instant results. There is a great aversion to
learning of any kind. And all matters of the body are supposed to be turned
over to a machine.

I suppose that there is a correlation between an aversion to leaning
physical skills with any stimulation of grey matter.

I read somewhere recently on the internet or in a book (Weight Lifting
for Dummies maybe) that they had a survey or an experiment once with
100 persons using free weights alone for a period of time and 100
persons using machines only for that same time.

I don't remember all the details but it clearly said that after this
time people with higher IQ tend to use a mix of both.

Personnally I love my free weights and bench presses and squats and
deadlifts but I wouldn't do without the cable lat pulldown and the
seated rows etc

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:55:42 -0500, Suzie Hall <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Since we're on the topic of "machines vs freeweights"

wouldn't you all think that machines are good for beginners who have
no idea in hell how to lift? as in "proper technique"?

real question, here.

spam away!

Suzie

Seth Breidbart said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Nameless blah said:

On 20 May 2005 01:57:41 -0700, "David Cohen" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

>"Most people choose to perform squats, benches, deadlifts, rows,
>chinups, cleans"?!?

You left off the etc after the word cleans. The leg press machine for
example, is another good exercise device.

For hanging a towel on.

Or maybe for calf raises.

Seth

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On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:36:51 +0800, Joe <[email hidden]>
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

I read somewhere recently on the internet or in a book (Weight Lifting
for Dummies maybe) that they had a survey or an experiment once with
100 persons using free weights alone for a period of time and 100
persons using machines only for that same time.

I don't remember all the details but it clearly said that after this
time people with higher IQ tend to use a mix of both.

Personnally I love my free weights and bench presses and squats and
deadlifts but I wouldn't do without the cable lat pulldown and the
seated rows etc

Cable machines like what you describe are nearly free weights. All of
the powerlifters I train with use them regularly. We also use regular
machines but it is definitely less than 5% of the total number of
exercises we do.