rotor cranks

Hi Andy,

In article <[email hidden]>, trifox13 @covad.net says...

Quoted message said:

i have been reading many positive things about this system. saw the rep at the velo swap today and
am very intrigued. numerous on line testimonies seem very positive. anyone here have thoughts or
personal experience? thanx.

I've been using Rotor for more than 2 years now and love them. They really work for me. I can't tell
if they will also help cyclists whose pedalling technique is perfect, though.

At first you feel really "strange" but the adaptation is very fast. When I change to my MBT (w/o
Rotor) the first 5 minutes are also strange. My brain remembers its last bike setting so this only
happens when I change from one bike to another.

All people I know who has tried them for some time says they work.

Also they look great on my bike.

Regards, Francisco Sanchez [email hidden]

trifox-<< i have been reading many positive things about this system. saw the rep at the velo swap
today and am very intrigued. numerous on line testimonies seem very positive. anyone here have
thoughts or personal experience? >><BR><BR>

We have a bike with them on it...come on down and ride it....

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

andy said:

i have been reading many positive things about this system. saw the rep at the velo swap today and
am very intrigued. numerous on line testimonies seem very positive. anyone here have thoughts or
personal experience?

"Many positive things"?? Like the free energy that's generated by their force field? Or the "dork
factor" hilarity when you show up at a club ride with them?

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Hi,

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"Many positive things"?? Like the free energy that's generated by their force field?

The fact is that I ride a little faster with them and my knees are OK now. The explanation about why
they help is very understandable, there's no need for a mysterious force field.

Quoted message said:

Or the "dork factor" hilarity when you show up at a club ride with them?

I didn't have that problem in Spain or France. We'll see next year in Italy. On the contrary, people
asks about them. Personally I like them: the craftmanship is superb.

If they were from Shimano or Campagnolo many more pros would be using them in the Tour of France and
next year all of us would also be using them, as always.

Regards, Francisco Sanchez [email hidden] billeniumsoft.combilleniumsoft.comOpen ↗

Hi,

In article <[email hidden]>, vecchio51 @aol.com says...

Quoted message said:

Not all of us

So you don't think they work. Did you try them for some time?

Quoted message said:

the UCI would outlaw them way before that..

They already tried that but last years designs are fully legal. In fact, some Spanish professionals
already used them in competitions.

I just don't understand why these cranks should be illegal for professionals. In any case, as I said
in a previous post in my opinion they are more useful for hobbysts as our pedalling technique is
usually much worse than professionals.

Regards, Francisco Sanchez [email hidden] billeniumsoft.combilleniumsoft.comOpen ↗

andy said:

i have been reading many positive things about this system. saw the rep at the velo swap today and
am very intrigued. numerous on line testimonies seem very positive. anyone here have thoughts or
personal experience? thanx. andy

ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
t=Abstract

Robert Chung said:

Quoted message said:

I have been reading many positive things about this system. Saw the representative at the velo
swap today and am very intrigued. Numerous on line testimonies seem very positive. Anyone here
have thoughts or personal experience?

Quoted message said:

tinyurl.comspt2Open ↗

That's nice but you'll notice that they tested non-bicyclists, people who cannot readily put out
reasonable enduring power anyway, so to my estimation this test shows nothing of interest while
alluding to results, positive or negative, depending on what you want to read from
it.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Thanx for all the input, well at least most of it. Good point that it probably will be most
significant on non-cylists or at least less serious cyclists. I'll try to get up to boulder and try
that bike peter. thanx to all. andy On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:58:35 GMT,

Quoted message said:

Robert Chung said:

Quoted message said:

I have been reading many positive things about this system. Saw the representative at the velo
swap today and am very intrigued. Numerous on line testimonies seem very positive. Anyone here
have thoughts or personal experience?

Quoted message said:

tinyurl.comspt2Open ↗

That's nice but you'll notice that they tested non-bicyclists, people who cannot readily put out
reasonable enduring power anyway, so to my estimation this test shows nothing of interest while
alluding to results, positive or negative, depending on what you want to read from
it.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Hi,

In article <[email hidden]>, trifox13 @covad.net says...

Quoted message said:

Good point that it probably will be most significant on non-cylists or at least less serious
cyclists.

Not exactly. In my opinion it helps cyclists whose pedalling technique is not perfect. Even many of
the pros don't have a great technique (I don't know what's the English term for 'round pedalling'😉.
And it should also help them, but the improvement should be smaller.

Quoted message said:

I'll try to get up to boulder and try that bike

Don't expect to see the effects in the first ride. Your body needs to adapt to the new system. In my
case it took me a few weeks to see the improvements.

Regards, Francisco Sanchez [email hidden] billeniumsoft.combilleniumsoft.comOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Robert Chung said:

tinyurl.comspt2Open ↗

That's nice but you'll notice that they tested non-bicyclists, people who cannot readily put out
reasonable enduring power anyway, so to my estimation this test shows nothing of interest while
alluding to results, positive or negative, depending on what you want to read from
it.

(Sorry to reply to Andy's post--my newsreader didn't pick up Jobst's post, so I didn't read his
comment until Andy included it).

Yeah, I know. These researchers (as well as others, I understand) are trying to do the study with
trained riders. In any event, I posted that link because it is (currently) the *only* study in a
refereed journal.

Posting links is sort of like posting a Rorschach inkblot. People see in them what they want to see.
What caught my eye was that "other performance determinants ... do not seem to be changed."

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

In article <[email hidden]>, trifox13 @covad.net says...

Quoted message said:

Good point that it probably will be most significant on non-cylists or at least less serious
cyclists.

Not exactly. In my opinion it helps cyclists whose pedalling technique is not perfect. Even many
of the pros don't have a great technique (I don't know what's the English term for 'round
pedalling'😉. And it should also help them, but the improvement should be smaller.

Always worried about the effects of wear and tear on this equipment when the higher gears are
used, I was not satisfied with the conditions of the warranty. Also after a few months of
consideration, I now believe that the disadvantages of this equipment would outweigh the advantage
it can give when one already has the perfect dead spot eliminating technique for riding in the
saddle. They would always have the overall advantage when riding out of the saddle but that type
of riding would also increase the strain on the moving parts. I would agree that many of the pros
don't have the perfect pedaling technique, in fact none of them have the most beneficial style of
powering the pedals.

Robert Chung said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

tinyurl.comspt2Open ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's nice but you'll notice that they tested non-bicyclists, people who cannot readily put out
reasonable enduring power anyway, so to my estimation this test shows nothing of interest while
alluding to results, positive or negative, depending on what you want to read from it.

Quoted message said:

(Sorry to reply to Andy's post--my newsreader didn't pick up Jobst's post, so I didn't read his
comment until Andy included it).

Quoted message said:

Yeah, I know. These researchers (as well as others, I understand) are trying to do the study with
trained riders. In any event, I posted that link because it is (currently) the *only* study in a
refereed journal.

Quoted message said:

Posting links is sort of like posting a Rorschach inkblot. People see in them what they want to
see. What caught my eye was that "other performance determinants ... do not seem to be changed."

These mechanisms are invented by the same people who made "snap-over connecting rods for cars to
give more leverage to combustion pressure in the cylinders, all the while ignoring that the stroke
remains unchanged (if they are lucky) and that all the pressure is expanded to the crank shaft.

These Rotor Crank people do not recognize that work is FORCE x DISTANCE and that their crank only
changes the phase of the legs, not the work performed. This is basically a perpetual motion machine,
one that creates power with no additional effort.

If these people would ride up a long grade, they would notice that the limitation is cardiovascular
(assuming they were in condition to do so) and that all the phase change mechanisms do not alter the
work performed or achieved. In fact smooth sinusoidal motion does that best.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

You tell them, Mr. Jobst. Work is where it's at! We could care less about power. You old
fuddy-duddy! Go back to your spoked wheels! I was temped to write a detailed positive review but I'd
rather keep my mouth shut and my advantage intact and continue to win triathlons with them. Funny
thing is rarely does someone even spot them on my bike at my races. I would say yeah, ride them on a
test bike up a few hills in Boulder and then say "oh, they're alright." People, if you think that
that is a controlled test you need retake 7th grade Science and get a lesson in the Scientific
method. If you want to listen to Jobst Brandt (has he even seen the rotors?) you need to have your
head examined. BTW, Jobst, while you're at it can you explain to me why bumblebees can't fly? I
always wondered that, and I'm sure you are the person to tell
me.BF

[email hidden] (Bill Franklin) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

You tell them, Mr. Jobst. Work is where it's at! We could care less about power. You old
fuddy-duddy! Go back to your spoked wheels! I was temped to write a detailed positive review but
I'd rather keep my mouth shut and my advantage intact and continue to win triathlons with them.
Funny thing is rarely does someone even spot them on my bike at my races. I would say yeah, ride
them on a test bike up a few hills in Boulder and then say "oh, they're alright." People, if you
think that that is a controlled test you need retake 7th grade Science and get a lesson in the
Scientific method. If you want to listen to Jobst Brandt (has he even seen the rotors?) you need
to have your head examined. BTW, Jobst, while you're at it can you explain to me why bumblebees
can't fly? I always wondered that, and I'm sure you are the person to tell
me.BF

Dear Bill,

Funny thing, googling for "triathlon" and "bill franklin" doesn't seem to turn up any triumphs.

Perhaps you compete under another name?

The only "bill franklin" that shows up with "triathlon" seems to be a 32-year-old fellow from
Lowell, Massachusetts, who in 2002 finished 32nd, 15th, 138th, and 351st in various competitions. In
his picture, he looks like a happy, modest fellow, so I suppose that you're someone else.

Under what name are your rotor-crank-aided victories found on the internet? Trust me--I promise not
to reveal your secret. You don't seem to be hiding your light under bushels like "franklin, bill" or
"william franklin."

(Web pages and results for "bill franklin" follow for the curious.)

Carl Fogel

***

mvstriders.com02 race3.htmOpen ↗

Lexington FD Ambulance Chase 5K Lexington, MA, May 19, 2002

------------------------------------------------------------------
32 Bill Franklin 180 M 32 Lowell MA 21:26 6:55

***

mvstriders.com02 race3.htmOpen ↗

Turret Trot 5k Methuen, MA, June 9, 2002 TIME PACE DIVSION AGE NAME Town, State
18:48 6:03 M 40-49 45 Charles Perry Hampstead, NH
19:56 6:06 M 32-39 39 Gregory Sun Wilmington, MA
20:48 6:23 M 32-39 35 Scott Molinari Waltham, MA
21:01 6:27 M 50-59 57 Bill Marlow Andover, MA
22:53 6:44 M 32-39 34 Scot Martel Methuen, MA
23:01 6:46 M 50-59 50 Gary Martin Boxford, MA
24:41 6:59 M 40-49 49 Andrew Ober Boxford, MA
25:47 7:01 M 50-59 52 Will Meredith Methuen, MA
26:48 7:01 M ...19 13 Geoffrey Martin Boxford, MA
27:50 7:02 M 40-49 47 Dana Kelley Westford, MA
28:52 7:03 M 32-39 32 Daniel Hill Haverhill, MA
29:06 7:07 M 40-49 41 Jim Moran Methuen, MA
30:20 7:12 F 40-49 45 Kim Reddington Reading, MA
31:47 7:20 M 50-59 58 Louis St_Leo Methuen, MA *22:50 7:21 M 32-39 32******Bill Franklin Lowell, MA

***

mvstriders.com02 race4.htmOpen ↗

North Andover 4th of July 10K North Andover, MA, July 4, 2002 PLACE NAME NO. DIV TOWN FINISH PACE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
138 Bill Franklin 615 36 M3039 Lowell MA 51:19
32:16

***

mvstriders.com02 race3.htmOpen ↗

Rojacks 5 Miler -- Grand Prix Race #6 Attleboro, MA, September 29, 2002

Town, State Club 351 36:38 7:20 131 18-39 262 M 401 Bill Franklin Lowell,MA MVS

[email hidden] (Bill Franklin) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

You tell them, Mr. Jobst. Work is where it's at! We could care less about power. You old
fuddy-duddy! Go back to your spoked wheels! I was temped to write a detailed positive review but
I'd rather keep my mouth shut and my advantage intact and continue to win triathlons with them.
Funny thing is rarely does someone even spot them on my bike at my races. I would say yeah, ride
them on a test bike up a few hills in Boulder and then say "oh, they're alright." People, if you
think that that is a controlled test you need retake 7th grade Science and get a lesson in the
Scientific method. If you want to listen to Jobst Brandt (has he even seen the rotors?) you need
to have your head examined. BTW, Jobst, while you're at it can you explain to me why bumblebees
can't fly? I always wondered that, and I'm sure you are the person to tell
me.BF

What gears do you use for normal level road and calm conditions during a triathlon and is this
gearing the same as what you used before getting the rotor cranks?

[email hidden] (Bill Franklin) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

If you want to listen to Jobst Brandt (has he even seen the rotors?) you need to have your head
examined. BTW, Jobst, while you're at it can you explain to me why bumblebees can't fly? I always
wondered that, and I'm sure you are the person to tell
me.

If I understand you correctly you propose to reject any refutation of the effectiveness of these
cranks based on the laws of physics because you have been taken in by an urban myth that science
proves that bees cannot fly. We are discussing cranks in this thread? Indeed.

--
Dave...

[email hidden] (Bill Franklin) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

You tell them, Mr. Jobst. Work is where it's at! We could care less about power. You old
fuddy-duddy! Go back to your spoked wheels! I was temped to write a detailed positive review but
I'd rather keep my mouth shut and my advantage intact and continue to win triathlons with them.
Funny thing is rarely does someone even spot them on my bike at my races. I would say yeah, ride
them on a test bike up a few hills in Boulder and then say "oh, they're alright." People, if you
think that that is a controlled test you need retake 7th grade Science and get a lesson in the
Scientific method. If you want to listen to Jobst Brandt (has he even seen the rotors?) you need
to have your head examined. BTW, Jobst, while you're at it can you explain to me why bumblebees
can't fly? I always wondered that, and I'm sure you are the person to tell
me.BF

Do you have a good explanation as to why rotor cranks work though?

We've also seen positive "peer reviewed" reports for the "negative torque reducing" variable
crank-length machine.

To bolster these limited experimental results, some proper explanations of how these alleged
benefits might occur would be nice and I suggest they would have to involve the muscle function
level rather than provocative concepts such as "dead spot reduction" which seems to assume the rider
doesn't normally get enough chance to apply power or "negative torque reduction" which sounds like
perpetual motion.

Your "talk power not work" objection has potential validity at least for short anaerobic bursts
since with rotor the legs spend more time on the downstroke at any cadence - so on the face of it
more _max_ power might be possible.

In case anyone doesn't know, with Rotor you get both legs on the downstroke at the same time in some
sectors of the stroke.

Andrew Bradley

Yeah Dave, like I really believe that myth. A USAF engineer "proved" that bees cannot fly using
physics. Of course he was wrong- he used incorrect assumptions. Just like a few years ago when the
Universe was "proven" by scientists to be 12B years old, yet the same scientists "determined"
certain stars to be 14B years old. Of course that was eventually rectified. I am using simple
metaphors because you guys can't seem to get it.
Mr. Brandt is wrong in saying that it is about force times distance. That is work. We are interested
in power. That's what wins races. He is a racer like me. We are not talking touring here. What
he doesn't realize is that the Cam on the rotors slows down your power stroke's angular velocity
in comparison to the bottom bracket a.v. (which is what is driving the chain). Thus the "time"
of the power stoke has effectively increased. Also the time of the upsstoke (no power applied)
has decreased. Look at an olympic swimmer closely, the arms don't move 180 degrees out of phase
like windmills. They move more slowly on the power stroke and quickly on the recovery. It is
wrong to say the rotors shift phases of the legs' strokes. They cause your legs to work like a
swimmers arms. Why spend 50% of your time recovering? Another way to say it is the duty cycle
has increased. JB says riding fast though is all about cardiovascular limitations. If this was
true we could bike just as fast with our arms alone! Think about it.

Of course you will not believe me. Of course my name is an alias--I want to keep winning races next
year. While you morons are out spending $2500 on a frame, I bought a set of RCs and a Power tap and
with my HRM I saw the difference for myself. I've participated in many threads in many forums
regarding these devices. The reaction is always the same. "I know they don't work because..." Unless
I get I job with RC Inc. this is the last you'll hear from me.

--"Bill"

PS- Rotor Cranks don't work. Please spread that around while you enjoy your fancy ass frame that
makes you sooo much faster.

Bill Franklin said:

Yeah Dave, like I really believe that myth. A USAF engineer "proved" that bees cannot fly using
physics. Of course he was wrong- he used incorrect assumptions.

The story of bees and other insects being unable to fly according to aeronautical principles was
already reported in a 1934 book "Le Vol Des Insects" and the USAF was only formed in 1947, so that
seems an unlikely source. The author of the book, the entomologist August Magnan, indicated that he
and his engineering assistant Sainte-Lague had done the calculation based on equations used in
aviation. Of course these generally calculate the lift available from a fixed wing and are therefore
not applicable to real bees whose wings are anything but fixed while in flight.