Ron Warhurst's Mile Training

thanks lyndon, i've saved this post for reading later.

jobs

Lyndon said:

Ron Warhurst is the track coach at the University of
Michigan, and has coached the likes of Kevin Sullivan,
Paul McMullen, Tim Broe, among others, to fast times. He
is perhaps the best we have in the US right now for middle
distance training. What follows is from a coaching seminar
he gave a few years ago. With the recent thread(s) about
speedwork and mile training, I thought this might be of
some interest. I can also supply this by email as a word
document for anyone who asks for it.

Quoted message said:

Lyndon
========================================================

Quoted message said:

Training For The Mile

Quoted message said:

University of Michigan Ron Warhurst

.................

He also tried to coach Alan Webb and was Lisa Rainsberger's
(Wiedenbach at one time) coach.

Just a quick scan and it confirms what I have always
thought: Most coaches have a poor understanding of exercise
physiology (or outdated anyway).

"Lyndon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:20040401173257.04378.00000421@mb-
m27.aol.com...

Quoted message said:

Ron Warhurst is the track coach at the University of
Michigan, and has

coached

Quoted message said:

the likes of Kevin Sullivan, Paul McMullen, Tim Broe,
among others, to

fast

Quoted message said:

times. He is perhaps the best we have in the US right now
for middle

distance

Quoted message said:

training. What follows is from a coaching seminar he gave
a few years

ago.

Quoted message said:

With the recent thread(s) about speedwork and mile
training, I thought

this

Quoted message said:

might be of some interest. I can also supply this by email
as a word

document

Quoted message said:

for anyone who asks for it.

Lyndon
========================================================

Training For The Mile

University of Michigan Ron Warhurst

|
Every coach has his own ideas which he incorporates into
his training

program.

Quoted message said:

Sharing ideas with other coaches, attending clinics,
readings and a

coach's

Quoted message said:

personal experiences all help to formulate a coaching
philosophy. As

training

Quoted message said:

methods improve, a coach's training philosophy changes.
There are several methods used today, all of which merit
some discussion. A brief discussion

of

Quoted message said:

physiology may help provide a basis for understanding the
different

training

Quoted message said:

methods used today. Physiologists have not identified the
exact mechanisms involved in

determining

Quoted message said:

the working capacity of human beings, but much has been
learned about the adjustments that are made to the demands
of the activity. Three critical factors that seem to
determine the working capacity of the individual are:

1.Oxygen Requirement of the Task. This is simply the
amount of oxygen the

body

Quoted message said:

needs to perform a given task; the more intense the
activity the greater

the

Quoted message said:

oxygen demand.

2. Oxygen-Debt Tolerance. When the demand of a task
exceeds the capacity

of the

Quoted message said:

circulatory system to meet the oxygen requirements of the
tissue, a

deficit

Quoted message said:

exists. The level of which the deficit can be built before
one must cease activity is called oxygen-debt tolerance.

3.Maximal Oxygen Intake. This is the amount of oxygen an
individual can take

into

Quoted message said:

his system during exercise. We can assume that to increase
the work capacity of the individual, we

have to

Quoted message said:

be concerned with these factors. In relation to running,
if we reduce the oxygen requirements of the run, increase
the runner's oxygen-debt

tolerance,

Quoted message said:

and increase the maximal oxygen intake, the performance of
the individual

will

Quoted message said:

be improved.

Aerobic and Anaerobic Exercise The controversy over
whether it is best to run long distances at a slow

pace,

Quoted message said:

or short distances at a fast pace, centers around the
concept of aerobic

and

Quoted message said:

anaerobic exercise and the physiological adaptations of
the body. Aerobic

means

Quoted message said:

"with oxygen," anaerobic means "without oxygen."

Aerobic exercise takes place when there is an adequate
supply of oxygen

carried

Quoted message said:

within the circulatory system during a given run. In other
words, aerobic running occurs when the oxygen requirement
of the run does not exceed the maximal oxygen intake of
the runner.

Anaerobic exercise occurs when the circulatory system
cannot supply enough oxygen for a given runâ?"the oxygen
requirement of the run exceeds the maximal oxygen intake
of the runner, and a deficit occurs. This deficit is
referred to as the oxygen debt. During very fast running,
oxygen intake is inadequate to supply the oxygen required
for production of the energy

demanded,

Quoted message said:

so the energy for muscle contraction is derived
anaerobically through a

complex

Quoted message said:

series of chemical reactions (KREB CYCLE). In these
chemical reactions, lactic acid is the end product of the

anaerobic

Quoted message said:

metabolism. This build-up of lactic acid and the depletion
of the glycogen

(the

Quoted message said:

energy source which is stored in the muscle tissue)
results in the failure

of

Quoted message said:

the muscle to contract any longer, and thus the runner
slows down.

Endurance is the ability to withstand fatigue, or the
ability of the body

to

Quoted message said:

withstand fatigue, or the ability of the body to withstand
the stresses

set up

Quoted message said:

by prolonged running. Endurance includes aerobic
endurance, anaerobic endurance, and muscular endurance.
These types of endurance are closely related within the
unity of the human body. In terms of running a given
distance in the fastest possible time,

it

Quoted message said:

would be most ineffective for the sprinter to concentrate
primarily on the development of aerobic endurance or for
the long distance runner to

concentrate

Quoted message said:

primarily on the development of anaerobic endurance.

Aerobic Endurance, also referred to as stamina, is the
general ability to withstand fatigue of the entire body in
the presence of a sufficient

supply of

Quoted message said:

oxygen over a prolonged period. It involves the ability to
resist fatigue

under

Quoted message said:

conditions where oxygen intake and oxygen requirement for
the run are kept

at a

Quoted message said:

steady and equal level. This is sometimes referred to as
cardiovascular endurance and circulo-respiratory
endurance.

By definition, aerobic running is running at a pace over a
given distance

so

Quoted message said:

that the running effort or pace does not go beyond the
capacity of the circulatory system to supply enough oxygen
for the effort involved in the

run.

Quoted message said:

The more running that can be done at this pace (Lydiard
refers to this as steady-state running), the more
efficient the runner's respiratory and circulatory systems
will become. The stroke volume of the heart will be
increased, allowing a more rapid blood flow throughout the
circulatory

system.

Quoted message said:

With the increased blood flow, a greater volume of oxygen
and carbon

dioxide

Quoted message said:

can be exchanged in the lungs. With increased activity
more capillaries

develop

Quoted message said:

as well. The increased efficiency of the respiratory and
circulatory

systems

Quoted message said:

will allow for more oxygen to be taken into the body, thus
raising the

maximal

Quoted message said:

oxygen intake of the runner. An increased maximal oxygen
intake is one of

the

Quoted message said:

factors exercise physiologists have used in determining
the running

ability

Quoted message said:

(work capacity) of the individual. Also, the more
efficient the runner

becomes,

Quoted message said:

the lower the oxygen requirement of the task becomes which
is a second

factor

Quoted message said:

in determining the ability of the runner.

Anaerobic endurance is endurance in the absence of oxygen.
It is the

general

Quoted message said:

ability to withstand fatigue of the entire body when
oxygen is in

insufficient

Quoted message said:

supply. This type of endurance is especially important in
middle-distance running. Muscular endurance is local
endurance which may be either aerobic

or

Quoted message said:

anaerobic. The extent of the blood supply in the muscles
involved, oxygen transport at the tissue level, muscle
tissue viscosity, and muscle

strength are

Quoted message said:

among the qualities upon which muscular endurance is
dependent.

By definition, anaerobic running is running at a pace
over a given

distance so

Quoted message said:

that the running effort goes beyond the capacity of the
circulatory system

to

Quoted message said:

supply oxygen for the effort. This situation creates the
critical

situation of

Quoted message said:

oxygen-debt. Because of the complex chemical reactions
that take place,

lactic

Quoted message said:

acid is produced, and this lactic acid cannot be easily
removed by the

cells

Quoted message said:

within the muscles, so it is passed into the circulatory
system. The circulatory system develops buffers to help
neutralize the lactic acid,

but

Quoted message said:

most of it is removed through the kidneys and liver. Much
of the lactic

acid

Quoted message said:

remains in the system and slows down muscle contraction.
This, along with

a

Quoted message said:

depletion of glycogen, causes the runners to slow down. An
increased

oxygen

Quoted message said:

supply will allow the runner to go farther because the
system can supply

more

Quoted message said:

oxygen to the muscle cells, thus postponing the onset of
the oxygen-debt.

During anaerobic running the body becomes accustomed to
the stresses of performing in an anaerobic state. The more
efficient the runner becomes in handling the state of
anaerobic running, the higher his oxygen-debt

tolerance

Quoted message said:

will become, and thus he will be able to sustain his
effort at a faster

rate,

Quoted message said:

and for a longer duration.

TRAINING METHODS

The most common method of training is the interval system.
It is a system

of

Quoted message said:

repeated efforts in which a measured distance is run
alternately with

measured

Quoted message said:

recovery periods of low activity. The term "interval"
refers to the rest interval between the repeated efforts.
The control of the rest period is

the

Quoted message said:

most important segment of the interval system.

The goal should be to reduce the rest period as much as
possible after the number of repetitions has been
established. This should be the primary

goal in

Quoted message said:

the early stages of interval training. For example,
instead of running 10

X 440

Quoted message said:

@ 70 seconds with a 440 jog rest, run 10 X 440 @ 75
seconds with a 220 jog rest. From this point work on
reducing the time of the repeated effort to

a

Quoted message said:

level, perhaps of 10 X 440 . 66 seconds with a 220 jog. A
possible format

might

Quoted message said:

be:

1. Establish number of repeated efforts to perform
(10x440).

2. Reduce rest period between repeated efforts.

3. Reduce time of repeated efforts.

Overdistance Running involves training at distances
greater than those of actual competition, and may include
continuous runs of six to ten miles or more. The pace of
such runs is normally pre-determined and is usually

slower

Quoted message said:

than the runner's racing pace. In pre-season training the
pace should not

be as

Quoted message said:

fast as it would be during the season, when the pace for
the over-distance

runs

Quoted message said:

should only be slightly slower than the runner's racing
pace. During the

racing

Quoted message said:

season these runs should be timed.

Fartlek Running is kind of a combination of1 overdistance
and interval

running.

Quoted message said:

It is defined as "speed play," freetype running done over
an in-j definite distance for an indefinite time with
some' segments of the run performed

at a

Quoted message said:

faster pace than others, depending on the way the runner
feels during the

run.

Quoted message said:

TRAINING PROGRAM

Research has shown that it is possible to raise an
individual's maximal

oxygen

Quoted message said:

intake by 9-13%. Since one factor in determining a
runner's work capacity

is

Quoted message said:

the oxygen intake, this aspect should be dealt with first.
The question therefore, is how can the runner's oxygen
intake be increased? The crucial factor in determining the
level of oxygen intake is the limitations of the
circulatory and respiratory systems. The primary concern
should be to strengthen these systems, thus increasing the
ability to take in oxygen.

To

Quoted message said:

strengthen these systems you must increase the heart-
stroke volume

capability

Quoted message said:

of the heart, thus increasing cardiac output. This will
allow more blood

to

Quoted message said:

flow through the system. An increase in capillarization
must take place as well. This too will allow a greater
volume of blood to flow through the

system.

Quoted message said:

Once the systems become more efficient, a greater volume
of oxygen and

carbon

Quoted message said:

dioxide can be exchanged at the tissue level and in the
lungs. This

increase in

Quoted message said:

oxygen availability for the muscles will help in
postponing the onset of

oxygen

Quoted message said:

debt. However, once the systems are loaded beyond their
capacities, oxygen

debt

Quoted message said:

becomes inevitable. When oxygen debt occurs, the runner
goes into a state

of

Quoted message said:

anaerobic exercise, so the next aspect of training should
be to train the runner so that his body can withstand the
stress during this state of oxygen-debt, intensive
interval training at fast speeds can bring about

these

Quoted message said:

stress situations. During the middle and late stages of
the racing season

this

Quoted message said:

type of training should be stressed.

Beginning Training Continuous slow running (7:00 pace or
faster)should be done during the

summer

Quoted message said:

months. This running should be relaxing with little
emphasis on running

races.

Quoted message said:

This type of training is most effective in terms of
producing aerobic endurance. It is a superior method of
increasing the stroke volume of the heart, capillarization
of the local muscle groups, and generally

increasing the

Quoted message said:

efficiency of the respiratory and circulatory systems.
This type of

training is

Quoted message said:

the first step in gradually adapting the runner to
tolerating the stress

of

Quoted message said:

running and the increased ability to withstand fatigue.
This summer

running (on

Quoted message said:

roads, cross country courses, and golf courses) is the
basis for your fall program and the basis upon which later
to apply faster training. During

the

Quoted message said:

fall, continuous fast running can take the place of the
slow running thus increasing the aerobic capacity and
increasing the ability to handle the

stress

Quoted message said:

encountered in running at faster speeds. During the fall
the training

emphasis

Quoted message said:

should be on developing strength, stamina and the
basic aerobic

capacities.

Quoted message said:

Interval training, when used, should help develop the
anaerobic capacity

with

Quoted message said:

an attempt to reduce the rest interval between
repetitions. In early

season the

Quoted message said:

repeats should be run at about race pace or slightly
faster. Mid-season interval training should be at race
pace with the rest interval reduced.

In

Quoted message said:

late racing season, speed-interval training should
emphasize the quality

of the

Quoted message said:

effort run, with more 'rest in between the timed efforts.
The number of

timed

Quoted message said:

runs can also be reduced.

This, hopefully, brings about the "sharpening effect" we
attempt to reach

in

Quoted message said:

the big meets. (See Fall Training)

Winter Training

A major problem a runner faces in Michigan during the
winter months is

where to

Quoted message said:

train. The answer is outside. A pair of gloves, a wool
hat, long

underwear, and

Quoted message said:

a hooded sweatshirt is all a distance runner needs for the
winter months.

At

Quoted message said:

Michigan we go outside 5-6 days a week unless it is below
zero or the

roads

Quoted message said:

haven't been cleared of snow. I have seen many runners
train very hard and become very fit during the fall. They
have built their strength and

endurance

Quoted message said:

to a very high level. .What many fail to realize is that
they must become

more

Quoted message said:

capable of handling the interval-oriented training program
for the half mile and mile. Improvement of leg speed can

be

Quoted message said:

accomplished with 110's and 150's as well as 55 yard in-
out sprints during

this

Quoted message said:

period. These sprints can be run on roads, in parking lots
and on the outdoor track if it s cleared of snow.

You might say the runners need a break from the pressure.
The pressure

comes

Quoted message said:

not so much from the training but the anticipation of
racing. From

November 1st

Quoted message said:

until February, there are very few races a high school
runner can perform in. These three months allow a
runner to continue ils strength training with no
pressure to race,

popefully,

Quoted message said:

this will carry him over to the spring len the pressure
races become important.

If intervals are used as a basis for training during
these months,

strength

Quoted message said:

(endurance)-oriented intervals should be used. Example:
run repeat miles, 880's, and 440's (run at slower than
race pace with litye rest between repeats). The speed-
interval should be used in early spring. The 110's,

150's,

Quoted message said:

and 55 yard in-out sprints should be enough "speed work"
during this

period.

Quoted message said:

(See Winter Training Insert)

Spring Training (March and April)

Maintaining strength and stamina (aerobic capacity) are
atill very

important

Quoted message said:

during the early spring. I would recommend runs of 8-10
miles twice a week supplemented with 110's, 150's, and 55
yard in-out sprints.

The emphasis during this period should be placed on the
development of anaerobic running. Faster intervals can be
run, race pace and faster. As the weather improves
(hopefully) the speed- interval training should'be done,
possibly three times a week. You should only run fast
intervals two days in a row. *

Example: Monday interval Tuesday Interval Wednesday
Distance and pickups Thursday interval Friday Distance and
pickups Saturday race Sunday Distance

The distance day between hard intervals allows the runner
to recover from

two

Quoted message said:

successive days of fast interval training.

The speed interval sessions might consist of 440's, 330's,
220's, and

150's.

Quoted message said:

Staircase sessions starting with an 880, 660, 440, 330,
220, 110's, might

be

Quoted message said:

used. During this period the 110's should be run at top
speed, only after

a

Quoted message said:

complete warmup and stretching. Interval sessions with a
maximum of 12-14 repeats are more than ample to bring
about the desired effects, if the

fartlek

Quoted message said:

and 110's-150's were maintained throughout the winter
training period. Determining how fast the intervals should
be run depends on several

factors.

Quoted message said:

First, how fast has the athlete run a mile? How fast can
he run a 220? Was

he

Quoted message said:

on a winter training program? As the performance of the
runner improves, judgments on changing the speed of the
repeated efforts in the workouts

can be

Quoted message said:

made. (See Spring Training Insert)

Weight Training

Every distance runner needs upper body weight work. We
lift weights

two-three

Quoted message said:

times a week during the fall and we continue the weight
training

throughout the

Quoted message said:

year. The winter training period is an excellent time to
concentrate on weight-lifting. Use curls, bench presses
and presses as well as rowing.

One or

Quoted message said:

two sets of 8-10 reps would be sufficient. The weight
session should only

last

Quoted message said:

10-15 minutes. If weights are not available, push-ups and
pull-ups are excellent.

POSSIBLE FALL TRAINING (September-November)

Monday: 2 mile warmup stretching and striding * f 4-7 mile
run at 5:40-6:20 pace (on hills if possible) + stretching
plus 6-8 X 110's @ 1/2-3/4 speed (Try to give a split 2-3
times during the run to help the runners with pace)

Tuesday: Warmup run (2-3 miles) (possible race) stretching
and striding 3X1 mile @
4:50-5:30pace(4-6min. recovery) 2 X 880 @ 2:20-2:35 pace
(3-4 min.

recovery)

Quoted message said:

mile warmdown and stretching

Wednesday: stretching 8 mile run @ 6:00-7:00 pace (hills
if possible) stretching plus fi^X 110 @
1/2-3/4 speed

Thursday: warmup run 2-3 miles stretching and striding (4
x 110 easy) 3 X 880 @ 2:18-2:35 pace (3-4 min. recovery) 6
X 440 @ 65-75 pace (60-90 sees, recovery) 1-2 mile
warmdown plus stretching and 4X150

friday: 6-8-10 mile run steady stretching 110 fast plus 1
X 880 in-out 55 yard

sprints

Quoted message said:

Saturday: (possible race) 8 miles Fartlek (2 miles easy,
3-4 Fartlek, 2-3 easy) Pick out telephone poles and go
hard for 3, easy for 6, hard for 4, easy for 2, hard for
1, easy for 6 (The pattern should be according to how the
runner feels)

Sunday: Steady 10-12 mile run

Total 55-70 miles per/week

NOTE: Possible morning workouts 2-3 days a week, 3-4 miles
easy.

POSSIBLE WINTER TRAINING (January-February-March)

Monday: stretching 6-8-10 miles (on hills if possible)
stretching 4X150(1/2-3/4 speed); 4X

110

Quoted message said:

(1/2-% speed)

Tuesday: 2-4 mile run â?" stretching interval training
repeat miles (2-3), half

miles

Quoted message said:

(4-6), 440's(8-12) slower than race pace; little rest
between reps, or 6 mile run stretching

plus

Quoted message said:

1 mile 55 in-out sprints 1 mile warmdown

Wednesday: 6-7-8 miles Fartlek First 2 miles easy; next
3-4 mile Fartlek; next 2 miles easy stretching plus 1 X
880 in-out 55 yard sprints

Thursday: 8-10 mile run stretching . 4-6X150's 4-6X110's

Friday: Fartlek run 6-8 miles (on hills if possible)

Saturday: Distance run plus stretching 4-6 X 110 plus 1 X
880 in-out sprints

Sunday: 10-12 mile run

Approximate total miles: 60-70 miles per week.

POSSIBLE SPRING PROGRAM

Monday: warmup and stretching 6 x 220; 1 x 440 plus 6 x
110 hard (pace work) or 880, 660, 440, 330, 220, (110's x
4) (pace work) warmdown

Tuesday: warmup and stretching (race?) 4x110(V2 speed) 6 x
330 fast 4 x 220 fast 1 x 880 in-out 55 yard sprints
warmdown

Wednesday: distance run 8-10 miles 4 x 110's 4x150's

Thursday: warmup and stretching 4 x660 @ pace 4 x 440 @
below pace 2 x 220 @ below pace (fast) 1 x 880 in-out 55
yard sprints warmdown

Friday: distance run plus pickups or Fartlek (if not
racing Saturday)

Saturday: race (Fartlek if not racing)

Sunday: 8-10 mile run steady

Sam said:

He also tried to coach Alan Webb and was Lisa
Rainsberger's (Wiedenbach at one time) coach.

If I read between the lines I assume there wasn't a match in
philosophy, personality and or results?

Quoted message said:

Just a quick scan and it confirms what I have always
thought: Most coaches have a poor understanding of
exercise physiology (or outdated anyway).

I hate to over generalize but most coaches teach what worked
for them, especially if they have/had running credentials,
and stuff you into their system even if it's the square peg
in the round hole.

In the past we have had discussions with the question, "Does
a coach have to have personal running credentials to be a
good coach?" IMO, no.

And I'm even less impressed by those that coach via Email
and a weekly phone call never having laid eyes or hands on
you during any stage of your running. Too many people out
their playing the game; like computer consultants and
telemarketers.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I hate to over generalize but most coaches teach what
worked for them, especially if they have/had running
credentials, and stuff you into their system even if it's
the square peg in the round hole.

Yup, that's what I do when people ask me for advice --
give what's worked well for me, but it's the concepts
and parameters, not the precise workouts or mileage,
that I donate (free of charge, of course--you get what
you pay for!).

Little things like "how many miles of speed should I do in a
speed workout?" are quite helpful for most people (general
answer for distance runners: no more than 4-5% of your
weekly avg mileage).

By the way, I believe you critiqued my back-to-back long and
moderate runs on the weekends a while back, and I'm giving
that up, partly on your advice, and training more like a
marathoner for my < 100 mile ultras.

Quoted message said:

In the past we have had discussions with the question,
"Does a coach have to have personal running credentials to
be a good coach?" IMO, no.

I agree. I think the great Jumbo Elliot, who coached
Villanova for many years, wasn't a runner, and they don't
get much better. He had an equipment rental business, and
donated his time, I believe.

Quoted message said:

And I'm even less impressed by those that coach via Email
and a weekly phone call never having laid eyes or hands on
you during any stage of your running. Too many people out
their playing the game; like computer consultants and
telemarketers.

Well, as a computer consultant who is now "working" at
home via email and phone, hey, shhhhh, don't mess things
up for me!

--Dan

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sam said:

He also tried to coach Alan Webb and was Lisa
Rainsberger's (Wiedenbach

at

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

one time) coach.

If I read between the lines I assume there wasn't a match
in philosophy, personality and or results?

In Webb's case that is true (at least from reading Sub
4). Lisa swears he is a great coach and she was pretty
successful as a distance runner (10,000 and marathon).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Just a quick scan and it confirms what I have always
thought: Most

coaches

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

have a poor understanding of exercise physiology (or
outdated anyway).

I hate to over generalize but most coaches teach what
worked for them, especially if they have/had running
credentials, and stuff you into their system even if it's
the square peg in the round hole.

In the past we have had discussions with the question,
"Does a coach have to have personal running credentials to
be a good coach?" IMO, no.

I would agree with this. A coach needs to be as much a
psychologist and good listener as anything else.

Quoted message said:

And I'm even less impressed by those that coach via Email
and a weekly phone call never having laid eyes or hands on
you during any stage of your running. Too many people out
their playing the game; like computer consultants and
telemarketers.

I have done this some and find it less than satisfying
and that those athletes are less successful than the
ones I see on a regular basis. I consider it a
necessary situation in some cases.

Quoted message said:

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

Dan Stumpus said:

Little things like "how many miles of speed should I do in
a speed workout?" are quite helpful for most people
(general answer for distance runners: no more than 4-5% of
your weekly avg mileage).

And the other variable, for how many weeks? I still see in
my own club people doing speed workouts damn near 52 years
of the year. So compulsive that they feel they will self
implode if they take a week off.

Quoted message said:

By the way, I believe you critiqued my back-to-back long
and moderate runs on the weekends a while back, and I'm
giving that up, partly on your advice, and training more
like a marathoner for my < 100 mile ultras.

Gee, I wish I could remember the specifics. From the 10,000
foot level I'm a fan of back-2-back but not until one is 1/2
to 3/4 of the way into their training cycle, i.e. solid base
with lots of hills. To do them too early(under preprepared)
causes too much stress, excessive recovery time and highly
injury prone.

Some further refinement. For 50k-50 miles I don't think the
are necessary. I prefer long runs for 3-5 consecutive weeks
for stress and then skip a week and repeat. For the 100k-100
miles the B2B's are very helpful especially if you want to
run under 24 hours for a 100 miles. One much be very in tune
with their recovery rate. I'm sure some combination in
necesary for multiday treks.

Speaking of multi-day I got to talk to Trishul Cherns at my
race last week. See
srichinmoyraces.usTrishul FinishOpen ↗

That's 3100 miles - 55 days , 2 hours, 12 minutes, 16
seconds

A classy guy and now owns a weekend house not to far from
me. I'm trying to hook up with him for some runs and try to
understand how he trained for a 3,100 mile race. I can't
fathom this kind of running.

Quoted message said:

Well, as a computer consultant who is now "working" at
home via email and phone, hey, shhhhh, don't mess things
up for me!

Too funny. When people find out I'm retired they ask if I do
computer consulting considering 31 years playing with big
boxes. When I reply I prefer to paint houses I get an odd
stare. I have zero anxiety - no dates to meet(other than
races), no moronic people to apease and I'm not being asked
to do more work with less people. Fries with that burger?

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

Hi Doug:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Little things like "how many miles of speed should I do
in a speed

workout?"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are quite helpful for most people (general answer for
distance runners:

no

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

more than 4-5% of your weekly avg mileage).

Quoted message said:

And the other variable, for how many weeks? I still see in
my own club people doing speed workouts damn near 52 years
of the year. So compulsive that they feel they will self
implode if they take a week off.

You know, running seems so simple, but there really are
quite a lot of variables, aren't there? When, how much, for
how long, how hard, how much rest, and on and on. I have a
good friend who is quite talented (78 VO2 max) , but has
been stale for years. And, wouldn't you know it, he is a
compulsive interval and repeat runner; several times a week,
year-round, he gets his pulse well over 200! I can't get him
to budge from that.

Quoted message said:

Some further refinement. For 50k-50 miles I don't think
the are necessary. I prefer long runs for 3-5 consecutive
weeks for stress and then skip a week and repeat.

I ran a pretty good 50 m off of marathon training back in
the day: your hunch matches my experience. I was until
recently under the thrall of 100 mile studs I know out here.
Since all I run is 50k and 50m for now, so I'm going back to
one long run a week (30+ miles on occasion), and doing 5k
and 10k races for tempo.

Quoted message said:

Speaking of multi-day I got to talk to Trishul Cherns at
my race last week. See srichinmoyraces.us3Open ↗
100_miles/Trishul_Finish

That's 3100 miles - 55 days , 2 hours, 12 minutes,
16 seconds

Amazing, 56 miles/day!

Quoted message said:

A classy guy and now owns a weekend house not to far from
me. I'm trying to hook up with him for some runs and try
to understand how he trained for a 3,100 mile race. I
can't fathom this kind of running.

Well, between you and me, I'd bet he's got elite talent, and
an indestructable body -- both things you're born with. Was
he a speed demon on the road? Is he a heriditary genius, or
a mere mortal with more gumption than the rest of us...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, as a computer consultant who is now "working" at
home via email

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

phone, hey, shhhhh, don't mess things up for me!

Too funny. When people find out I'm retired they ask if I
do computer consulting considering 31 years playing with
big boxes. When I reply I prefer to paint houses I get an
odd stare. I have zero anxiety - no dates to meet(other
than races), no moronic people to apease and I'm not
being asked to do more work with less people. Fries with
that burger?

I went a few months not working a stitch, thinking I'd find
it paradise. After 8 weeks of painting my house (a massive
job -- 20 rooms), I realized that I actually *enjoy* the
work, in moderate doses, as much as anything I
do. If I have to paint another 5-panel door, I'll scream!
Of course, it helps that I have no staff, no
meetings/memos/politics and no midnight calls. I get my
morning runs in the mountains, hang out at the coffee
shop, then do a bit of work. Oh, hold the fries, I'm in
training...

Regards,

Dan

In article said:

Dan Stumpus said:

Little things like "how many miles of speed should I do
in a speed workout?" are quite helpful for most people
(general answer for distance runners: no more than 4-5%
of your weekly avg mileage).

And the other variable, for how many weeks? I still see
in my own

Or for that matter, how many workouts per week ? Depends on
a lot of things.

Quoted message said:

club people doing speed workouts damn near 52 years of the
year. So compulsive that they feel they will self implode
if they take a week off.

Within the problem lies the solution to the constant "red
lining" you complain about. The solution is to periodise
instead of trying to do 101% 52 weeks a year. I did this,
spending most of winter just training by myself, building
milage and not doing much speed work.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Dan Stumpus said:

You know, running seems so simple, but there really are
quite a lot of variables, aren't there? When, how much,
for how long, how hard, how much rest, and on and on. I
have a good friend who is quite talented (78 VO2 max) ,
but has been stale for years. And, wouldn't you know it,
he is a compulsive interval and repeat runner; several
times a week, year-round, he gets his pulse well over 200!
I can't get him to budge from that.

For some type A's rest is dirty word. 😉

Quoted message said:

I ran a pretty good 50 m off of marathon training back in
the day: your hunch matches my experience. I was until
recently under the thrall of 100 mile studs I know out
here. Since all I run is 50k and 50m for now, so I'm going
back to one long run a week (30+ miles on occasion), and
doing 5k and 10k races for tempo.

Sounds great. I hardly do a 5 or 10k and rely on tempo at
best. At one time I wanted to run 19 hours for a 100 now I
want stay under 24 hours through age 60. Some of it is age
but it's more of a mellowing. I'd have to go to 60-80 a week
and I can't service the harem with that kind of mileage. 😉

Quoted message said:

Well, between you and me, I'd bet he's got elite talent,
and an indestructable body -- both things you're born
with. Was he a speed demon on the road? Is he a heriditary
genius, or a mere mortal with more gumption than the rest
of us...

It's not blinding speed. I'm far from fast and I finished 30
minutes in front of him at the HAT race. We both did VT100
but different years and he ran 28 hours and I ran 21. He
admitted the downhills crushed his quads and no problem with
the distance. It's whole different animal to use the same
muscle set for days and days.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

"Dan Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Little things like "how many miles of speed should I do in
a speed workout?" are quite helpful for most people
(general answer for distance runners: no more than 4-5% of
your weekly avg mileage).

That brings to mind the question "What is a speed workout?".
Are LT paced runs considered speed? What about running at
planned marathon pace? Since both of these are at a speed
lower than VO2 max, do you still use the "5% of weekly
mileage" rule?

Phil M.

--
"Pain is temporary: the success it brings can be
everlasting." -fortune cookie

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

That brings to mind the question "What is a speed
workout?". Are LT paced runs considered speed? What about
running at planned marathon pace? Since both of these are
at a speed lower than VO2 max, do you still use the "5% of
weekly mileage" rule?

Good question! I'm talking about repeats where you're heart
is up at 90%+ at the end of the interval.

I never trained much at MP, I always prefer a 10k race for
overspeed, over a 12 miler at mp. I consider the 10k
speedwork, obviously. In fact, I've got to leave for one
right now!

The percentage of mileage such a workout could be without
screwing up the training is higher; I'd *guess* it would
be 12-15%.

--Dan

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dan Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1%n-
[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Little things like "how many miles of speed should I do
in a speed workout?" are quite helpful for most people
(general answer for distance runners: no more than 4-5%
of your weekly avg mileage).

That brings to mind the question "What is a speed
workout?". Are LT paced runs considered speed? What about
running at planned marathon pace? Since both of these are
at a speed lower than VO2 max, do you still use the "5% of
weekly mileage" rule?

Phil M.

--
"Pain is temporary: the success it brings can be
everlasting." -fortune cookie

This is going to vary. I would say anything at LT or above
is speed. Marathon pace is not to to me. Others will differ
and that is fine.

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Within the problem lies the solution to the constant "red
lining" you complain about.

Not a complaint but an observation of type A wannabe's.

Quoted message said:

I did this, spending most of winter just training by
myself, building milage and not doing much speed work.

For what it matters, me too. I think I've done two or three
tempo runs in four months. My intent is to be regular but
[censored] happens.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

Doug Freese said:

It's not blinding speed. I'm far from fast and I finished
30 minutes in front of him at the HAT race. We both did
VT100 but different years and he ran 28 hours and I ran
21. He admitted the downhills crushed his quads and no
problem with the distance. It's whole different animal to
use the same muscle set for days and days.

Aside from the different muscles issue, Karl King has an
interesting chapter in A Step Beyond on the 25:5 run:walk
ratio that Keven Setnes used in the 24-hr national
championships - and won over a straight runner, although not
by much (160 vs 158 miles). Both had PR's and apparently
were pushing each other.

The argument is that no one really trains to run 24-hr
continuously. They usually train for a different distance,
and do a 24 based on that training. To continuously run 24
hr, you would likely be running at a slower pace/effort than
what you trained for. So the economy may not be as good when
you slow down. But you'll obviously crash if you tried to
run at normal effort. Insert walk breaks of about 5 min for
recovery. Run what might be normal effort for maybe a 100
(just guessing) for 25 min, walk 5.

I've got a hunch, the guy that did the 3100 miles either
trained for it or that type of running is a large portion of
his volume - like 2 months worth 🙂 His economy is probably
tuned to that. Whereas you train run/walk for hills and an
effort for 100 miles, your economy is tuned to
VT100. But yea, the lack of hills in his long run (er, that
would be very long run), may be sufficient to account
for it (probably not HAT though).

The 25 min run comes from Noakes' Lore of Running suggesting
most efficient use of aerobic energy is over 10-30 min of
running - application of data beyond what it was intended
for, but best guesstimate for a starting point. From
Costill's Inside Running, hr takes about 4 min to recover
from fast running. 24-hr pace may not be fast, but
physiological effects may be similar after awhile. Again,
applying data outside it's original bounds, but a starting
point when no real data available. For instance, 30 sec is
too short for systems to recover and 15 min (a mile) is too
long for optimum time to finish.

The origin of the run/walk ratio was for energy
conservation. But it also provides a break for the muscles
already discussed. It also allows increase in BCAA in blood
and mental alertness (blocking the tryptophan / serotonin
connection).

Now you're probably going to tell me he runs the 3100 mi,
HAT, and VT100 using run/walk and all this is irrelevant.
Well, *I* thought it was interesting.

You'll have to tell us more about his training when you get
a chance to run with him.

Dot how did we get from 1 mile to 3100 miles in one thread?
Is this the record distance wandering for one thread?

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

In article <[email hidden]>,
Dot <dot.h@#att.net> wrote:

[snippage]

Quoted message said:

Dot how did we get from 1 mile to 3100 miles in one thread?
Is this the record distance wandering for one thread?

I think it's a record for a thread.

On the other hand, I think I still hold the r.r. record
for greatest ratio between race distances within a year of
each other -- 50 meters on the track to 50 km on trail. In
a more ordinary year, I span 100 meters to 10 miles
(factor of a bit over 160).

--
Robert Grumbine radix.net~bobgOpen ↗ Science faqs and
amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo
Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less
appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a
more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

I think it is pointless to argue about the theoretical
merits or deficiencies of any training program, when the
reality is that any training program can be tested by people
actually trying it. By observing the results of all of those
who follow it, then you have a good idea of the worth of the
training program.

Personally, I view the ideal training program for collegiate
aged athletes as one in which 100% of the athletes achieve
PR's each week with 0% of them suffering from injuries.
Unfortunately, I have not yet come across any training
program that lives up to that ideal, but I have seen some
that come extremely close.

Ed Friedman