rollers or trainer?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by brodieroadie
So... I have a very stiff aluminum/titanium frame (scandium?) and have been told that a trainer wouldn't be the best for my bike, is this true?

Also, in general, what's best a trainer or rollers?

I've heard for a long time "Rollers will teach pedal cadence/spinning" and fluid/mag trainers for a more realistic load/resistance. I have an old wind trainer and I'm updrading to a Tacx I-magic to help with the boredem.

I'm not aware of there being a stiffness-trouble issue with bikes and trainers... what kind of bike are we talking about here?

As far as trainers vs. rollers... I don't have roller experience, but I understand that the workout you'll get on them is bound to be very different from what a trainer will give you. A trainer treats you like an excercise bike does; you can get all sorts of cardio or strength work done on them. Rollers typically emphasize the finer subtleties of efficient cycling -- things like balance, a smooth cadence, and so on. You generally can't get as intense a strength or heart workout on rollers as a trainer will permit; as well as maintaining good, even friction is a challenge, flying off the front of the thing is a risk unless you're using some sort of stabilizing device (at which point you're better off with a trainer).

I believe they take practice and are pretty much scary to use. A chimp could use a trainer.

Both are useful.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by lokstah
I'm not aware of there being a stiffness-trouble issue with bikes and trainers... what kind of bike are we talking about here?

As far as trainers vs. rollers... I don't have roller experience, but I understand that the workout you'll get on them is bound to be very different from what a trainer will give you. A trainer treats you like an excercise bike does; you can get all sorts of cardio or strength work done on them. Rollers typically emphasize the finer subtleties of efficient cycling -- things like balance, a smooth cadence, and so on. You generally can't get as intense a strength or heart workout on rollers as a trainer will permit; as well as maintaining good, even friction is a challenge, flying off the front of the thing is a risk unless you're using some sort of stabilizing device (at which point you're better off with a trainer).

I believe they take practice and are pretty much scary to use. A chimp could use a trainer.

Both are useful.

Agree that they both target very different skills, capacities... The rollers that I have "Kreitler" apparently can be had with a resistance unit looking not unlike a mag resistance unit that gets bolted on to the rear roller.

I refrained from this since I was worried about so much resistance being generated that one might actually "drive off" the rollers.

A friend steered me in the right direction though when he explained that the resistance unit only works off of the extreme rear roller so that even if that roller stopped completely, you would only be driving your rear tire down into the forward rear roller and not up and over it, and any forward impetus you did generate would instantly disappear once the rear tire lost contact with the extreme rear roller, as opposed to if the front rear roller stopped, then you would drive over it because you would have continuous contact (like riding over a speedbump).

At the worst he said what would happen if too much resistance was applied is that you would decellerate quickly, lose balance and fall over sideways, but never fly forward...

If one puts a resistance unit on a set of rollers, does that mean in essence you're getting the best of both worlds? or just a portion of each?

Feanor

Hmmmm, good question. Probably one for someone who's used a roller (not me). 🙂

I do know a guy that has zipped off the front of his roller unit a few times, though. Not exactly sure how that works; I'd have to have him explain the physics as he perceived them, as he careened into the TV...

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by lokstah
Hmmmm, good question. Probably one for someone who's used a roller (not me). 🙂

I do know a guy that has zipped off the front of his roller unit a few times, though. Not exactly sure how that works; I'd have to have him explain the physics as he perceived them, as he careened into the TV...

I can explain that one! How he came off the rollers, not why he careened into the tv 🙂

On rollers there are three drums, the one in question, the culprit one might say, is the drum in the middle (directly in front of the rear tire)

The drum has of course has a fixed mass, and characteristics associated with how fast it can be "spun up" to speed.

What happens on the bike is that when you mash down hard in an abrupt acceleration, its possible to get your rear wheel to turn faster than the roller can accomodate. In essence you outpace your middle drum and overtake it...

At this point the rear tire climbs up on that roller and that's all she wrote... Everything is typically a blur for most people after that.

This might be the biggest hidden disadvantage of rollers in that even without resistance installed, you can't explode in a sudden burst of speed (as in training for a strong sprint) like you can on a trainer since you exceed the middle drums ability to keep pace and then it just becomes a slippery speed bump you drive over rather than a spinning drum your tire stays behind.

Everything has to be smooth on rollers and this includes acceleration and decelleration... And it definitely teaches you how to be smooth, precise and relaxed...

After several months on the rollers I impress my riding friends by being able to ride the concrete strip aside the sidewalk for long periods to avoid rougher pavement. It can;t be more than 6-8 inches wide 🙂

Feanor

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Feanor
... the culprit one might say, is the drum in the middle (directly in front of the rear tire)

The drum has of course has a fixed mass, and characteristics associated with how fast it can be "spun up" to speed.

What happens on the bike is that when you mash down hard in an abrupt acceleration, its possible to get your rear wheel to turn faster than the roller can accomodate. ....

Are you sure this is the case? I've never encountered any rollers with that much inertia.

My bet would be the rider in question, in the process of the type of acceleration you're talking about, might shift his body weight and push the bike forward enough to get the front tire rolling down the front of its roller, thus aiding in pulling the rear out from its position between the rear rollers.

Never seen it happen though, not that it can't.

As far as crashing into the TV goes, the rider and bicycle have no forward momentum coming off the rollers. When his/her tires hit the stationary floor they'd immediately stop. What happens next depends on the rider. If the rider is sufficiently strong (and not paying attention) or the gear is low enough he/she may be able to accelerate from zero to whatever it takes to get to the TV before he can stop pedaling and apply the binders.

It scares my knees to think about sprinting along as fast as I can go and suddenly the wheel, cogs, chain, chain ring, crank, pedal, and therefore my foot come to an abrupt halt. Ouch.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by rollers
As far as crashing into the TV goes, the rider and bicycle have no forward momentum coming off the rollers. When his/her tires hit the stationary floor they'd immediately stop. What happens next depends on the rider. If the rider is sufficiently strong (and not paying attention) or the gear is low enough he/she may be able to accelerate from zero to whatever it takes to get to the TV before he can stop pedaling and apply the binders.

You've got me. I can't confirm that he truly, forcefully crashed into anything. But he has moved off the front of the rollers.

😉

Hi Rollers! (no pun intended *laughing*)

Having curiosity piqued by the original question, I actually got on the rollers that night just to confirm what the heck was happening 🙂

It turns out that we may both have a portion of the answer... When I practice form out of the saddle while on the rollers a significant portion of my body mass moves forward of the crank (of farther forward than when spinning)

To hammer down hard enough to launch off the rollers you of course, have to climb out of the saddle (I do this at top dead center on the stroke) at the point I would really drive down hard I am in my climbing position forward on the bike... at this point I have to remember to be both smooth and relaxed.

My front roller is very slightly in front of the front wheel hub, but if I mash down hard and suddenly, because of the weight shifting forward, the lurch of the pedalling action (rocking back and forth) and the fact that the middle roller and the front roller are both connected by the band and thus more rotating mass than a single roller, I can get up and over the middle roller and head off straightaway.

This has happened several times resulting and though I normally end up on the floor of the garage (ouch! concrete slab) several times I have been able to keep my head screwed on straight and finnagle myself to stay in control... this involves remaining calm, and lifting the rear wheel over the front roller as I move forward.

You don't end up rocketing away, but the small impetus you gain from falling off the middle roller (like a steep short ramp) give you enough forward momentum to place you in that no mans land of "do I brake and fall over, or should I track, hop clear of the rollers and try for a controlled stop?"

Since I have about 15 feet in front of me in the garage I've normally opted for the ride clear and try to unclip and stop gracefully... Its always a surprise and a bit of a rush...

Have a good one!

Feanor

...fascinating...

We need video of someone doing this. I'll try and film my friend.

By the way -- anyone have any thoughts on the original post's primary question? About particularly stiff frames being unsuited for use in a trainer? I've never heard of such a thing. My alu frame is pretty darn stiff.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Feanor
Hi Rollers! (no pun intended *laughing*)

Having curiosity piqued by the original question, I actually got on the rollers that night just to confirm what the heck was happening 🙂

It turns out that we may both have a portion of the answer... When I practice form out of the saddle while on the rollers a significant portion of my body mass moves forward of the crank (of farther forward than when spinning)

To hammer down hard enough to launch off the rollers you of course, have to climb out of the saddle (I do this at top dead center on the stroke) at the point I would really drive down hard I am in my climbing position forward on the bike... at this point I have to remember to be both smooth and relaxed.

My front roller is very slightly in front of the front wheel hub, but if I mash down hard and suddenly, because of the weight shifting forward, the lurch of the pedalling action (rocking back and forth) and the fact that the middle roller and the front roller are both connected by the band and thus more rotating mass than a single roller, I can get up and over the middle roller and head off straightaway.

This has happened several times resulting and though I normally end up on the floor of the garage (ouch! concrete slab) several times I have been able to keep my head screwed on straight and finnagle myself to stay in control... this involves remaining calm, and lifting the rear wheel over the front roller as I move forward.

You don't end up rocketing away, but the small impetus you gain from falling off the middle roller (like a steep short ramp) give you enough forward momentum to place you in that no mans land of "do I brake and fall over, or should I track, hop clear of the rollers and try for a controlled stop?"

Since I have about 15 feet in front of me in the garage I've normally opted for the ride clear and try to unclip and stop gracefully... Its always a surprise and a bit of a rush...

Have a good one!

Feanor

Well you might be the first to ever call me a high roller 🙂
pun well intended.
I was surprised to have snagged this uname. Lucky me.

I'm glad you tested it out and didn't get hurt in the process. Your description was excellent and highlighted the details that make this a unique and non-intuitive experience. Well done!

Now I want to get myself some rollers. I had them years ago but they fell into disrepair and I ended up tossing them out. Now I'm back on the road bike again and cannot get enough of it. Rollers are a must.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by lokstah
By the way -- anyone have any thoughts on the original post's primary question? About particularly stiff frames being unsuited for use in a trainer? I've never heard of such a thing. My alu frame is pretty darn stiff.

I never gave it any thought. All I really have ever cared about my bike in the trainer is the wheel and axel and tire. I don't wear down the good stuff within the confines of my own home.

Doesn't seem to me like the frame would care about being in a trainer regardless of its stiffness. That's JMO, FWIW (not too much!)

The story I've heard about trainers being hard on the frame relates to sprinting. With a trainer, there is no side to side 'give' when you come out of the saddle and really start cranking on the power, so the BB takes all the strain. On rollers, like on the road, the wheels can drift side to side a bit as they are rolling, and the frame can lean a little, taking some of the strain off of the BB.

I know of one rider who had his carbon Trek in a trainer and ended up cracking the BB area. He sprinted a lot. Don't absolutely know if the trainer was responsible, but it was a fairly new 5200, not prone to that sort of failure.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by JohnO
The story I've heard about trainers being hard on the frame relates to sprinting. With a trainer, there is no side to side 'give' when you come out of the saddle and really start cranking on the power, so the BB takes all the strain. On rollers, like on the road, the wheels can drift side to side a bit as they are rolling, and the frame can lean a little, taking some of the strain off of the BB.

I know of one rider who had his carbon Trek in a trainer and ended up cracking the BB area. He sprinted a lot. Don't absolutely know if the trainer was responsible, but it was a fairly new 5200, not prone to that sort of failure.

Good post. Good points.
I hadn't thought of that at all, maybe because I tend to stay seated when indoors.

OK now I care about my frame bolted into the trainer.
I need a new bike.