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Rolhoff Speedhub / Bike Design Quesiton

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Cycling Equipment
Published
30 September 2006
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4 October 2006
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BobT
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  1. I am planning to assemble a bike for loaded touring in the U.S.A. using a
    Rohloff speedhub. I am not sure what is the best solution for the issue of
    attaching (transmitting the torque from) the speedhub/rear wheel to the
    frame. Dealing with chain tension adjustment is also an integral factor in
    this design decision.

    What is the best solution?

    1.. Standard vertical dropouts on an off-the-shelf frame using the Rohloff
    torque arm and a chain tensioner. I am currently using this setup on my
    commuter bike.
    1.. Pro - Can use an off-the-shelf frame such as a Surly Long Haul
    Trucker and save a lot of money, perhaps more than a thousand dollars.
    2.. Con - Changing a flat tire with this system is sometimes a bit
    finicky. I have had trouble getting the torque arm quick release to release
    and reattach without some additional effort. Is the need for a chain
    tensioner a negative?
    2.. Standard vertical dropouts on an off-the-shelf frame with a rear disc
    brake mounting block using the Rohloff speedbone and a chain tensioner?
    1.. Pro - No finicky torque arm.
    2.. Con - Will pannier/rack mounting be a problem? Does not eliminate
    the need for a chain tensioner.
    3.. Custom frame with Rohloff sliding dropouts?
    1.. Pro - Mechanically simple, elegant, with fewer moving parts to
    break. Frame could easily be used with a derailleur system in the future by
    simply changing the bolt-on right rear dropout.
    2.. Con - Really expensive. AFAIK, only available by getting a custom
    frame built. The Rohloff dropouts are also expensive. I will be spending
    around $500.00 US extra for a speedhub over a derailleur system. Why not
    spend an extra thousand or two for a custom frame? Will changing a flat tire
    and maintaining proper chain tension be simple and easy? Is varying chain
    tension during the pedal cycle caused by a slightly eccentric chainring
    likely to be much of a problem? Sheldon Brown talks about this problem in
    tandems on his site.
    4.. Non-sliding vertical dropouts designed to handle the additional
    torque combined with an eccentric bottom bracket like Thorn Cycle's frames.
    1.. Pro - Uses a less expensive (than custom) off-the-shelf frame from
    Thorn.
    2.. Con - Frame not easily modified to use a derailleur system without
    welding on new dropouts and repainting. Some people have described problems
    with the eccentric bottom brackets such as the setscrews denting the bottom
    bracket.
    5.. Same as D. with a chain tensioner and no eccentric bottom bracket.
    1.. Pro - No eccentric bottom bracket?
    2.. Con - I haven't seen this available as an off-the-shelf frame.
    Obviously this could be custom built. Probably wouldn't have much advantage
    over option B. described above.
    6.. Horizontal dropouts with axle bolts and nuts rather than a quick
    release skewer.
    1.. Pro - Simple solution for chain tension adjustment?
    2.. Con - I haven't seen a modern touring frame with horizontal
    dropouts. Wrench needed to change a flat tire.
    7.. Some other permutation of these options: vertical dropouts,
    horizontal dropouts, Rohloff OEM sliding dropouts, custom dropouts, torque
    arm, speedbone, chain tensioner, and eccentric bottom bracket?

    Thanks in advance. This is not a question about whether or not to use a
    internal gear hub on a loaded touring bike.

    BobT

  2. BobT said:

    I am planning to assemble a bike for loaded touring in the U.S.A. using a
    Rohloff speedhub.

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:


    Thanks in advance. This is not a question about whether or not to use a
    internal gear hub on a loaded touring bike.

    No? Aw, c'mon -- that's not fair. There are dozens of otherwise
    unoccupied folk on this NG who would cheerfully flog this subject to
    death if you let 'em!

    -- mike elliott

  3. BobT said:

    I am planning to assemble a bike for loaded touring in the U.S.A. usinga
    Rohloff speedhub. I am not sure what is the best solution for the issue of
    attaching (transmitting the torque from) the speedhub/rear wheel to the
    frame. Dealing with chain tension adjustment is also an integral factor in
    this design decision.

    Quoted message said:

    What is the best solution?

    If you want the _best_ solution, forget the mono-buttocked chain
    tensioner and the inconvenient torque arm.

    The _best_ solution is a Rohloff-specific frame and Rohloff O.E.M. hub.

    These frames come in two flavors:

    •Fixed Rohloff O.E.M.fixed dropouts with eccentric bottom bracket.

    The Thorn Raven is an affordable example of this. I like mine a lot.

    •Adjustable Rohloff O.E.M. dropouts with standard bottom bracket.

    These dropouts can be retrofitted to most steel frames, and some of the
    cost is recouped by using the less expensive O.E.M. model Rohloff hub.

    See: http://www.paragonmachineworks.com/

    Sheldon "You Asked For The Best..." Brown
    +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
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    +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
    Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
    Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
    http://harriscyclery.com
    Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

  4. Per BobT:

    Quoted message said:

    attaching (transmitting the torque from) the speedhub/rear wheel to the
    frame. Dealing with chain tension adjustment is also an integral factor in
    this design decision.

    What is the best solution?

    Dunno from best, but after using Rohloff's supplied torque arm/hose clamp, I
    moved to their "SpeedBone" solution - which uses the rear disk brake mounts and
    does not interfere with the brakes. Quite elegant an unobtrusive.

    For chain tension, I've tried two solutions: eccentric BB and adjustable rear
    dropouts. The eccentric BB looks by far the most elegant, but I prefer the
    adjustable rear dropouts.

    Reasons:
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1) The eccentric BB's adjustment eats into my fore-aft saddle adjustment.

    2) My particular eccentric BB was set up so that I had to remove the chain
    wheel/crank to get an Allen wrench in there to adjust it.

    3) Haven't done any weighing, but the adjustable dropouts must be half
    the weight of an eccentric BB.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    --
    PeteCresswell

  5. "Mike Rocket J Squirrel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    BobT said:

    I am planning to assemble a bike for loaded touring in the U.S.A. using a
    Rohloff speedhub.

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:


    Thanks in advance. This is not a question about whether or not to use a
    internal gear hub on a loaded touring bike.

    No? Aw, c'mon -- that's not fair. There are dozens of otherwise unoccupied
    folk on this NG who would cheerfully flog this subject to death if you let
    'em!

    -- mike elliott


    Since Sheldon and Pete have helped me make a decision, I'd be more
    than glad to help entertain the group.

    Ok mike and other unoccupied folk - should I use an internal gear
    hub on my loaded touring bike?

    BobT

  6. Thorn Raven frame. Has the Rohloff OEM dropouts and a BB eccentric for
    taking up chain tension.
    http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/lkid/1/cid/YPTQ53DKVY6E5LUPASX248RX55QNU64J/article-Thorn-Cycles-Ltd-ThornCyclesLtd.htm.

    FWIW, I've been touring on a Rohloff hub adapted into a Litespeed Blue Ridge
    Frame for about five years. I wouldn't go back to a derailleur bike for
    touring. For fast bunch rides etc I still use derailleur bikes.

    Nick

    "BobT" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:omwTg.3803$Rp3.3532@dukeread12...

    Quoted message said:

    I am planning to assemble a bike for loaded touring in the U.S.A. using a
    Rohloff speedhub. I am not sure what is the best solution for the issue of
    attaching (transmitting the torque from) the speedhub/rear wheel to the
    frame. Dealing with chain tension adjustment is also an integral factor in
    this design decision.

  7. BobT said:

    "Mike Rocket J Squirrel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    BobT said:

    I am planning to assemble a bike for loaded touring in the U.S.A. using a
    Rohloff speedhub.

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:


    Thanks in advance. This is not a question about whether or not to use a
    internal gear hub on a loaded touring bike.

    No? Aw, c'mon -- that's not fair. There are dozens of otherwise unoccupied
    folk on this NG who would cheerfully flog this subject to death if you let
    'em!

    -- mike elliott


    Since Sheldon and Pete have helped me make a decision, I'd be more
    than glad to help entertain the group.

    Ok mike and other unoccupied folk - should I use an internal gear
    hub on my loaded touring bike?

    BobT


    There's another choice?

  8. Sheldon Brown wrote:
    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    If you want the _best_ solution, forget the mono-buttocked chain
    tensioner and the inconvenient torque arm.


    I have a road frame with longish horizontal dropouts that I'd like to
    fit with a Rohloff. I gather the best way to use the dropouts for
    tensioning the chain would be to get the Rohloff with track nuts.
    However, I'd like to get the quick-release version for two reasons --
    it's not a special-order item and if I like the Rohloff I'llprobably
    get a Rohloff-ready frame sooner or later.

    Is there any reason I can't go with:

    horizontal dropouts

    a quick-release Rohloff, and

    BMX chain-tensioners like this one:
    www.danscomp.com/440006.php?cat=PARTS ?

    I've seen BMX chain-tensioners used on road-bike-to-fixed-gear
    conversations, so I think it can be done, maybe with a little filing.
    But is there any reason it's not a good idea?

  9. Per [email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    horizontal dropouts

    a quick-release Rohloff, and

    BMX chain-tensioners like this one:
    www.danscomp.com/440006.php?cat=PARTS ?

    Maybe it depends on the rider's weight, but I'd expect axle ends to move under
    load.

    With vertical drops, you've got the metal doing the job of constraining the axle
    ends.

    With horizontal and a skewer, it would just the clamping force of the skewer -
    and my guess is that it's not engineered for the job.
    --
    PeteCresswell

  10. (PeteCresswell) said:

    Per [email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    horizontal dropouts

    a quick-release Rohloff, and

    BMX chain-tensioners like this one:
    www.danscomp.com/440006.php?cat=PARTS ?

    Maybe it depends on the rider's weight, but I'd expect axle ends to move
    under load.

    With vertical drops, you've got the metal doing the job of constraining the
    axle ends.

    With horizontal and a skewer, it would just the clamping force of the skewer
    -
    and my guess is that it's not engineered for the job.

    Quick releases seem to work fine on tandems and low-geared MTBs. Why
    would a Rohloff QR not be up to the job?

    --
    Ted Bennett

  11. Per Ted Bennett:

    Quoted message said:

    Quick releases seem to work fine on tandems and low-geared MTBs.

    With horizontal dropouts?

    Quoted message said:

    Why would a Rohloff QR not be up to the job?


    --
    PeteCresswell

  12. (PeteCresswell) said:

    Per Ted Bennett:

    Quoted message said:

    Quick releases seem to work fine on tandems and low-geared MTBs.

    With horizontal dropouts?

    Quoted message said:

    Why would a Rohloff QR not be up to the job?

    Sheldon's site makes the contention that quality skewers (Shimano,
    Campy) will do just fine. I'd stick with track nuts for the sole
    purpose of not having to get the wheel aligned in one pass.

    --
    Paul M. Hobson
    Georgia Institute of Technology
    ..:change the f to ph to reply:.

  13. (PeteCresswell) said:

    Per Ted Bennett:

    Quoted message said:

    Quick releases seem to work fine on tandems and low-geared MTBs.

    With horizontal dropouts?

    Yes, with horizontal dropouts. Anecdotal, personal experience with
    quality closed cam skewers with steel, not aluminum, teeth.

    Sheldon Brown will back me up on that, if I may Invoke His Name.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Why would a Rohloff QR not be up to the job?

    I'd still like to know. Because if it isn't, then I'd like to know if
    the skewer can be replaced with one that works better.

    --
    Ted Bennett

  14. Quoting Ted Bennett <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    Quick releases seem to work fine on tandems and low-geared MTBs.

    Well, just - the (sensible design) QR on our tandem works, but it has to
    be done up jolly tight if it's not to slip.
    --
    David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?
    Today is Second Gloucesterday, September.

  15. "Ted Bennett" <[email hidden]> a écrit:

    Quoted message said:

    Quick releases seem to work fine on tandems and low-geared
    MTBs. Why would a Rohloff QR not be up to the job?

    and:

    Quoted message said:

    I'd still like to know. Because if it isn't, then I'd like to know
    if the skewer can be replaced with one that works better.

    Rohlolff don't supply a skewer with their Speedhub, so it's not a question
    of replacing the Rohloff skewer with a better one, but of selecting a good
    skewer in the first place.

    The reason that the QR Speedhub is only recommended for use with vertical
    dropouts is that the quick release compresses the axle. IIRC, Rohloff places
    a limit on QR clamping force to limit the compression of the axle.

    In addition, the hub's right hand 'locknut' is smooth aluminium, not knurled
    steel.

    I don't see any reason why a QR Rohloff shouldn't be used in horizontal
    dropouts with a chain tug.

    James Thomson

  16. James Thomson said:

    "Ted Bennett" <[email hidden]> a écrit:

    Quoted message said:

    Quick releases seem to work fine on tandems and low-geared
    MTBs. Why would a Rohloff QR not be up to the job?

    and:

    Quoted message said:

    I'd still like to know. Because if it isn't, then I'd like to know
    if the skewer can be replaced with one that works better.

    Rohlolff don't supply a skewer with their Speedhub, so it's not a question
    of replacing the Rohloff skewer with a better one, but of selecting a good
    skewer in the first place.

    The reason that the QR Speedhub is only recommended for use with vertical
    dropouts is that the quick release compresses the axle. IIRC, Rohloff places
    a limit on QR clamping force to limit the compression of the axle.

    In addition, the hub's right hand 'locknut' is smooth aluminium, not knurled
    steel.

    I don't see any reason why a QR Rohloff shouldn't be used in horizontal
    dropouts with a chain tug.

    James Thomson

    Thank you, James. That's just the information I was looking for.

    --
    Ted Bennett

  17. (PeteCresswell) said:

    Per [email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    horizontal dropouts

    a quick-release Rohloff, and

    BMX chain-tensioners like this one:
    www.danscomp.com/440006.php?cat=PARTS ?

    Maybe it depends on the rider's weight, but I'd expect axle ends to move under
    load.

    With vertical drops, you've got the metal doing the job of constraining the axle
    ends.

    With horizontal and a skewer, it would just the clamping force of the skewer -
    and my guess is that it's not engineered for the job.

    Rohloff don't recommend it. I asked.

  18. "(PeteCresswell)" <[email hidden]> a écrit:

    Quoted message said:

    Per [email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    horizontal dropouts

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    a quick-release Rohloff, and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    BMX chain-tensioners like this one:
    www.danscomp.com/440006.php?cat=PARTS ?

    Quoted message said:

    Maybe it depends on the rider's weight, but I'd expect axle ends to
    move under load.

    With a chain tug, the axle end can't move under load. Even with minimal
    retaining force from the skewer, the chain tug is held tight against the end
    of the dropout, preventing any movement of the axle.

    James Thomson

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