Roast beef question

On Wed 07 Sep 2005 03:47:24p, Andy wrote in rec.food.cooking:

Quoted message said:

Wayne Boatwright said:

On Wed 07 Sep 2005 02:39:13p, Andy wrote in rec.food.cooking:

Quoted message said:

Wayne Boatwright wrote:

> So, in effect, you stewed it, Andy. IMHO, the crockpot is not the
> best method of achieving a "deli-style" roast beef. I know you just
> got, but it is not the be-all and end-all appliance for cooking
> everything.

Wayne,

Obviously not! I'll hunt for a "proper" roast beef recipe.

Thanks,

Andy

You might try this one, but use the oven for it...

3 pounds beef eye of round roast
1/2 teaspoon kosher salt
1/2 teaspoon garlic powder
1/4 teaspoon freshly ground black pepper

Preheat oven to 375 degrees F (190 degrees C). If roast is untied, tie
at 3 inch intervals with cotton twine. Place roast in pan, and season
with salt, garlic powder, and pepper. Add more or less seasonings to
taste. Roast in oven for 60 minutes (20 minutes per pound). Remove
from oven, cover loosely with foil, and let rest for 15 to 20 minutes.

Wayne,

I'll try that but ONLY 60 minutes?!? Where on the doneness scale will
this finish?

Andy

Fairly rare in the middle. Adjust according to your taste, but don't
overcook or it may be dry.

--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974

Andy said:

Bob (this one) said:

How did you cook it? To what degree of doneness? Hard to help without
info.

Pastorio,

The rump sat in the slow cooker on LO for 7 hours. A four pounder. Half
submerged in juices.

That's not roast beef. It's a pot roast. The name of that technique is
"braising."

Very different things. Roasting is a dry-heat process in an oven
uncovered so that the air in the oven is the cooking medium.

For my restaurants, I did it this way: A rump roast is a solid muscle
piece and doesn't need tying. We seasoned with ground white pepper,
garlic powder and seasoning salt, and we did it generously. Heat the
oven to 250°F (not a typo), put the meat on a rack so it's up off the
floor of the pan and into the oven it goes. You can't cook by time
because there are too many variables (accuracy of the oven, the
temperature of the meat going in, the shape of the piece of meat, etc.).
For rare, cook to a center temp of 120-125°, med-rare - 130-135°, med -
140-145°. More than that, it won't slice well and it will eat tough.

Happy meat.

Pastorio

"Andy" <q> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Try cooking it on a rotisserie

I can DO that!

Good, but don't use a rump roast. Rump and chuck are best made the way you
did, as pot roast. They are tough and need the long moist cooking times to
tenderize.

To make a good deli style beef, you need a cut more suitable for oven
roasting (or the rotisserie) like a sirloin, round, or rib eye roast. In
general, the more expensive, the more tender when oven roasted.

Andy said:

jmcquown said:

Perhaps they've never actually *had* a French Dip?

Jill

Jill,

Do you think 523 people could be clueless? I have to agree.

Andy

It's a small number compared to the overall population 🙂

Jill

Andy said:

Yesterday I used a rump roast to make French Dip roast beef sandwiches.
Although very good, it had the consistency of pot roast. The same was true
of chuck roast and top round roast.

What cut will cook to a consistency similar to the roast beef you get in
the deli section at the market? I'm growing tired of shredded beef.

Thanks,

Andy

I use a rolled rib roast for French dip - can't be beat (unless you use
a bone-in rib roast). ;-)

Yum. (If I don't want to cook a roast for myself alone, I drive about
15 minutes to a little bitty town where there's a small grocery/deli,
where they roast sirloins [in the store roasting, not that Arby's type
plastic meat] to have a steady supply of thin-sliced rare and
medium-rare roast beef - also very yum.)

N.

Wayne Boatwright said:

On Wed 07 Sep 2005 02:39:13p, Andy wrote in rec.food.cooking:

Quoted message said:

Wayne Boatwright said:

So, in effect, you stewed it, Andy. IMHO, the crockpot is not the
best method of achieving a "deli-style" roast beef. I know you just
got, but it is not the be-all and end-all appliance for cooking
everything.

Wayne,

Obviously not! I'll hunt for a "proper" roast beef recipe.

Thanks,

Andy

You might try this one, but use the oven for it...

3 pounds beef eye of round roast
1/2 teaspoon kosher salt
1/2 teaspoon garlic powder
1/4 teaspoon freshly ground black pepper

Preheat oven to 375 degrees F (190 degrees C). If roast is untied, tie at3
inch intervals with cotton twine. Place roast in pan, and season with salt,
garlic powder, and pepper. Add more or less seasonings to taste.
Roast in oven for 60 minutes (20 minutes per pound). Remove from oven,
cover loosely with foil, and let rest for 15 to 20 minutes.

--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*

Eye of round is fine if you have very strong teeth - it's one of the
toughest cuts out there. JMO.

N.

Bob (this one) said:

For my restaurants, I did it this way: A rump roast is a solid muscle
piece and doesn't need tying. We seasoned with ground white pepper,
garlic powder and seasoning salt, and we did it generously. Heat the
oven to 250°F (not a typo), put the meat on a rack so it's up off the

....deleted

Quoted message said:

Pastorio

Bob,

I'm curious. Why did you choose white pepper rather than black?

Thanks,
-bwg

In article <[email hidden]>, Andy <q>

Quoted message said:

Yesterday I used a rump roast to make French Dip roast beef sandwiches.
Although very good, it had the consistency of pot roast. The same was true
of chuck roast and top round roast.

What cut will cook to a consistency similar to the roast beef you get in
the deli section at the market? I'm growing tired of shredded beef.

Thanks,

Andy

You probably over-cooked it. :-)
Personally, I prefer Chuck, or rib eye if I can afford it!
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack Nicholson

On Thu 08 Sep 2005 08:23:07a, Nancy1 wrote in rec.food.cooking:

Quoted message said:

Wayne Boatwright said:

On Wed 07 Sep 2005 02:39:13p, Andy wrote in rec.food.cooking:

Quoted message said:

Wayne Boatwright wrote:

> So, in effect, you stewed it, Andy. IMHO, the crockpot is not the
> best method of achieving a "deli-style" roast beef. I know you just
> got, but it is not the be-all and end-all appliance for cooking
> everything.

Wayne,

Obviously not! I'll hunt for a "proper" roast beef recipe.

Thanks,

Andy

You might try this one, but use the oven for it...

3 pounds beef eye of round roast
1/2 teaspoon kosher salt
1/2 teaspoon garlic powder
1/4 teaspoon freshly ground black pepper

Preheat oven to 375 degrees F (190 degrees C). If roast is untied, tie

at

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3 inch intervals with cotton twine. Place roast in pan, and season with
sal t, garlic powder, and pepper. Add more or less seasonings to taste.
Roast in oven for 60 minutes (20 minutes per pound). Remove from oven,
cover loosely with foil, and let rest for 15 to 20 minutes.

--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*

Eye of round is fine if you have very strong teeth - it's one of the
toughest cuts out there. JMO.

N.

If it's not overcooked and sliced very thin, it usually isn't a problem.
Otherwise, I totally agree.

--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
____________________________________________

My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four,
unless there are three other people.

In article <[email hidden]>, Andy <q>

Quoted message said:

Bob (this one) said:

How did you cook it? To what degree of doneness? Hard to help without
info.

Pastorio

Pastorio,

The rump sat in the slow cooker on LO for 7 hours. A four pounder. Half
submerged in juices.

Andy

Waaaaaayyyy too long!

Get a meat thermometer.
Learn how to use it.

Pastorio taught me that a couple of years ago.

It's helped a LOT.
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack Nicholson

Quoted message said:

Bob (this one) said:

For my restaurants, I did it this way: A rump roast is a solid muscle
piece and doesn't need tying. We seasoned with ground white pepper,
garlic powder and seasoning salt, and we did it generously. Heat the
oven to 250°F (not a typo), put the meat on a rack so it's up off the

...deleted

Quoted message said:

Pastorio

Bob,

I'm curious. Why did you choose white pepper rather than black?

I like the finished effect better. White pepper is just black pepper
with the outer hull removed. Same basic critter.

Putting black pepper on at the beginning means that none of the perfume
of black pepper will remain. All the volatiles are gone by the time it's
finished cooking. You can't smell pepper on the finished roast.

I find that white pepper seems to retain a bit more pungency. One guy's
taste.

Pastorio

Starting today at Acme (Albertsons) supermarket:

Angus Beef Round Rump Roast Boneless USDA Choice
4–6lb
$2.490/lb

That's half price!

Guess I'll be steppin' out to the supermarket for a few. 🙂

Andy

Bob (this one) said:

For my restaurants, I did it this way: A rump roast is a solid muscle
piece and doesn't need tying. We seasoned with ground white pepper,
garlic powder and seasoning salt, and we did it generously. Heat the
oven to 250°F (not a typo), put the meat on a rack so it's up off the
floor of the pan and into the oven it goes. You can't cook by time
because there are too many variables (accuracy of the oven, the
temperature of the meat going in, the shape of the piece of meat, etc.).
For rare, cook to a center temp of 120-125°, med-rare - 130-135°, med-
140-145°. More than that, it won't slice well and it will eat tough.

Happy meat.

Pastorio

I do a modified Alton Brown. Roast at 200°F (also not a typo) until
internal temp is 115°F. Remove from oven while preheating to 550°F.
Roast for 15 minutes and let rest under foil for another 15. This gives
a nice crisp bark and a medium rare center.

Cam

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

Get a meat thermometer.
Learn how to use it.

Pastorio taught me that a couple of years ago.

It's helped a LOT.
--
Om.

Om,

I'm now the proud owner of a newfangled oven/meat thermometer. It even
comes with a small wireless receiver so I don't have to be in the
kitchen to monitor meat temp while it cooks. That's my kind of lazy!!!

Andy

at Wed, 07 Sep 2005 22:47:24 GMT in <Xns96CABF075A7B1nospamdotcom@
216.196.97.136>, q (Andy) wrote :

Quoted message said:

Wayne Boatwright said:

On Wed 07 Sep 2005 02:39:13p, Andy wrote in rec.food.cooking:

Quoted message said:

Wayne Boatwright wrote:

> So, in effect, you stewed it, Andy. IMHO, the crockpot is not the
> best method of achieving a "deli-style" roast beef. ...

Wayne,
Obviously not! I'll hunt for a "proper" roast beef recipe....
Andy

You might try this one, but use the oven for it...

....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Preheat oven to 375 degrees F (190 degrees C). ... Roast in oven for 60

minutes (20 minutes per pound)....

Quoted message said:

Wayne,

I'll try that but ONLY 60 minutes?!? Where on the doneness scale will
this finish?

60 minutes, yes. Oven roasting is a LOT faster cooking method than pot
roasting and the objectives are different. Pot roasting requires very long
times (and low temps) because the idea is to break down collagen fibres
(which make meat tough) and this must be done at a low temperature over a
long period of time, and with enough liquid. Oven roasting, meanwhile,
requires a high temperature and a short time because the idea is to
caramelise the outside of the meat while heating the middle. If you're used
to times for pot roasting, oven-roast times will probably seem ludicrously
short. 20 minutes/lb generally leans towards medium-rare. Many sources
recommend using a meat thermometer for better precision.

Cuts of beef suitable for oven roasting are different from those for pot
roasting, at least in general. However, I've found that the best economical
cut for oven roasting is one that also works excellently for pot roasting -
namely, chuck eye. However, chuck eye is pretty fatty, so it won't turn out
exactly like deli-style roast beef which usually uses one of the leaner
cuts - the round that you used being popular. Sirloin is another lean
roast, but it's pricier. Part of the reason delis like lean beef is that
it's *much* easier to slice thinly. Slicing a chuck-eye thinly takes
expertise, patience, and a very sharp knife. A chuck eye also won't slice
well in a deli slicer which pretty much nixes its use in actual delis. In
general, chuck cuts are better pot-roasted, and the chuck eye is no
exception - while as I say it makes a fine oven roast, it makes a
magnificent pot roast. Generally chuck roasts, particularly the 7-bone,
blade, and eye roasts, are best pot roasted. The very best oven roasts are
rib (occasionally seen in posh delis) and tenderloin (usually not used for
french dip although I suppose you could - but it'd be a waste). Top round
is popular and practical, although personally I think it rather devoid of
flavour and with a tendency to be rubbery even thinly sliced.

One cultural thing I notice - there's a group of people for whom the term
"roast" essentially means pot roast *automatically*. It's difficult for
them to conceive of or imagine doing a roast any other way and the idea of
a classic oven roast is more or less alien. You have to be careful when
scanning recipes as a result, because people in this group will, of course,
automatically submit pot-roast recipes, and just simply call them "roast"
or "roast beef" because it's the only way that they know. So it can be
confusing to the novice. Such people can also argue vehemently that
instructions for cooking meat for oven roasts are wrong, because when they
heard the term "roast" they automatically assumed pot roast and the
directions they then heard would be precisely those that would yield a very
poor pot roast indeed. So they think it's the recipe that's wrong rather
than their expectation of the result. I once got involved in a debate with
such a person who insisted that a tenderloin should be cooked at a low
temperature for a long time in plenty of liquid! This would be nearly a
crime on a tenderloin which essentially demands very high, dry temperatures
and short times.

--
Alex Rast
[email hidden]
(remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

In article <[email hidden]>, Andy <q>

Quoted message said:

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

Get a meat thermometer.
Learn how to use it.

Pastorio taught me that a couple of years ago.

It's helped a LOT.
--
Om.

Om,

I'm now the proud owner of a newfangled oven/meat thermometer. It even
comes with a small wireless receiver so I don't have to be in the
kitchen to monitor meat temp while it cooks. That's my kind of lazy!!!

Andy

Whatever works. :-)
I'm all in to whatever makes things easier! <lol>
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack Nicholson

Bob (this one) said:

or my restaurants, I did it this way: A rump roast is a solid muscle
piece and doesn't need tying. We seasoned with ground white pepper,
garlic powder and seasoning salt, and we did it generously. Heat the
oven to 250øF (not a typo), put the meat on a rack so it's up off the
floor of the pan and into the oven it goes. You can't cook by time
because there are too many variables (accuracy of the oven, the
temperature of the meat going in, the shape of the piece of meat,

etc.).

Quoted message said:

For rare, cook to a center temp of 120-125ø, med-rare - 130-135ø, med

-

Quoted message said:

140-145ø. More than that, it won't slice well and it will eat tough.

Happy meat.

Pastorio

Pastorio,

I did a roast using your method! Fantastic!!!

I used my new meat thermometer. I sat the roast fat side up right on the
oven rack and put a drip pan the lowest oven rack.

Took it out at 135 F. and tented it in foil for 15 minutes. It continued
to cook to 138.

It was perfectly medium rare! I carved it superthin!

French Dip is now "IN THE HOUSE!!!"

Many thanks.

You rock!

Andy