Road Rage in Glenhuntly rd Elsternwick.

oh my!! im glad you are ok and opted out of the situation and got home in one piece!

behaviour like this is just inexcusable, chances are he has hassled many a cyclist before and has been reported before, so your going to the police may actually land this guy in some deep poo.

seriously, his rage has nothing to do with you, he probably does it to all cyclists.
his behaviour towards the woman in front also shows that he thinks the road is his... people like this should not be driving, at all. ever.

i wish you luck and hope you dont have another run in with this guy! i also hope the police do something about this because its just not on!

Paul (NCC/CS). said:

This guy is a maniac nut. He'll kill someone.

This sounds really serious. Personally, I'd invest some time in trying
to track him down. Are your commuting times fairly regular? If you think
you may have seen him before, maybe camp out near the incident point
(with bike well hidden and wearing something different to your normal
gear) and try and get his number.

--
..dt

dtmeister said:

Paul (NCC/CS). said:

This guy is a maniac nut. He'll kill someone.

This sounds really serious. Personally, I'd invest some time in trying
to track him down. Are your commuting times fairly regular? If you think
you may have seen him before, maybe camp out near the incident point
(with bike well hidden and wearing something different to your normal
gear) and try and get his number.

yeah. it was scary.

I commute to work a few times a week around these times.

I'm going to try and get his number.

I also faxed this post to the local Police so they can look out
on their patrols.

thanks for the support to you and others,
Paul.

Quoted message said:

--
.dt

--

____________________________________________

Paul
____________________________________________

That's just astonishing. I really do wonder how some people justify their behaviour to themselves, never mind anyone else. Here's hoping he gets what's coming to him.

Resound said:

That's just astonishing. I really do wonder how some people justify
their behaviour to themselves, never mind anyone else. Here's hoping he
gets what's coming to him.

part of the trouble is actually getting the Police interested also.

Hopefully they will be if and when i get the number plate.

so far though I have rung them, faxed them, begged them,
but not much response.

we're horrified we cyclists,
but until there is a death, they're yawning.

it seems they always wait until it's too late.

pauly

Quoted message said:

--
Resound

--

____________________________________________

Paul
____________________________________________

Paul (NCC/CS). said:

we're horrified we cyclists,
but until there is a death, they're yawning.

Yes, if he'd pointed a gun at you, there'd be black choppers in the
skies. But of course, you can't seem to convince some people that a
cars are often intentionally used a deadly weapon to threaten and
in some cases kill. And a damned effective weapon at that. Kind of
like guns.

Take it easy, we've all been there.

--
..dt

Don't assume the police will not take it seriously. If every driver and
cyclist report this driver, then it will be taken seriously. To me,
this falls under the "hoon driver" legislation that allows for
immediate confiscation of the car.

If this driver regularly behaves like this at known times and known
locations then it will only be a matter of time before his/her vehicle
is off the road.

The community won't tolerate this behaviour.

dtmeister said:

Paul (NCC/CS). said:

we're horrified we cyclists,
but until there is a death, they're yawning.

Yes, if he'd pointed a gun at you, there'd be black choppers in the
skies. But of course, you can't seem to convince some people that a
cars are often intentionally used a deadly weapon to threaten and
in some cases kill. And a damned effective weapon at that. Kind of
like guns.

Take it easy, we've all been there.

--
.dt

AndrewJ said:

Don't assume the police will not take it seriously. If every driver and
cyclist report this driver, then it will be taken seriously. To me,
this falls under the "hoon driver" legislation that allows for
immediate confiscation of the car.

If this driver regularly behaves like this at known times and known
locations then it will only be a matter of time before his/her vehicle
is off the road.

He doesn't have the rego. Strike one, they won't follow it up. Had it
been a gun pointed at him, and he still didn't have the rego, they'd
still investigate.

His word against the driver. Strike two. Had the driver been accussed
of pointing a gun, they'd work hard to be damned sure that when the
driver says "I don't have a gun" or "I didn't do it", that he's actually
telling the truth. Sometimes, if you have the rego and are persistant,
yes you can get lucky and they'll actually look into it and see if there
have been similar events in the past.

My take on this is that as a community we need to treat people who
threaten others with their car in the same boat as people who
threaten others with a firearm. They are both just as potentially
deadly if the threat is carried out. Once word gets out that the
police will treat this as criminal activity, I'd suggest this would
go a long way towards improving things. However it would take
signficantly more resources, and we're a minority group. I know
drivers threaten each other with their cars, but it's much more even
playing field in most cases, so they're probably less sensitive to
this as a real issue.

--
..dt

dtmeister said:

My take on this is that as a community we need to treat people who
threaten others with their car in the same boat as people who
threaten others with a firearm. They are both just as potentially
deadly if the threat is carried out.

They do, almost. This would be a case of assault, which is criminal. If
you feel intimidated by the threats, you've been assaulted. It gets
more serious if you are actually hit, because then you get the bodily
harm etc. You can't really say, "A car is like a firearm". Where does
that stop? You would have to rank pickaxes, razors, syringes, etc. That
stuff is all left to the magistrate in setting the penalty. And that's
where the problem seems to lie. The cops aren't interested in taking it
to court, because they know the perp will weasel out of it with no
conviction and a tiny fine. They will tell this to the complainant, who
then decides it's not worth the bother (it happened to me, after being
threatened by a guy who got out of his car with an iron bar).

Donga

Donga said:

dtmeister said:

My take on this is that as a community we need to treat people who
threaten others with their car in the same boat as people who
threaten others with a firearm. They are both just as potentially
deadly if the threat is carried out.

They do, almost. This would be a case of assault, which is criminal. If
you feel intimidated by the threats, you've been assaulted. It gets
more serious if you are actually hit, because then you get the bodily

Yes I know, but going on the posts in this forum, it seems that reports
made by cyclists and even drivers against assault doesn't go far. They
don't have the resources to investigate these incidents in the same
way they would investigate assault with a firearm.

Quoted message said:

harm etc. You can't really say, "A car is like a firearm". Where does
that stop? You would have to rank pickaxes, razors, syringes, etc. That
stuff is all left to the magistrate in setting the penalty. And that's

Well you need to pick your fights. True, where does it stop. However you
can arbitrarily decide that a car will be treated as a deadly weapon if
used in a threatening manner. Then you make it law. Now it's like a gun.
You can legally own a gun and use it in a non threatening manner. Same
deal with a car. Just because one is designed to kill and the other
isn't can be dealt with in the law.

Quoted message said:

where the problem seems to lie. The cops aren't interested in taking it
to court, because they know the perp will weasel out of it with no
conviction and a tiny fine. They will tell this to the complainant, who
then decides it's not worth the bother (it happened to me, after being
threatened by a guy who got out of his car with an iron bar).

Again, I don't think they have the resources to deal with this problem
properly, so it's hard work and often not possible to get them to do
anything.

--
..dt

In aus.bicycle on 14 Jul 2006 08:06:18 GMT

dtmeister said:

Yes I know, but going on the posts in this forum, it seems that reports
made by cyclists and even drivers against assault doesn't go far. They
don't have the resources to investigate these incidents in the same
way they would investigate assault with a firearm.

Biggest hassle I suspect is that there are very few legit reasons to
carry a firearm, but many to drive a motor vehicle.

And even fewer legit reasons to wave the gun about, but many to be
moving the vehicle.

So it boils down to "he said, she said" and to disentangle that is
damn near impossible without witnesses who are willing to testify.

Whereas a gun being waved is way easier to determine if it happened
and was legit, and more people will look and be willing to testify,

Cops are very practical people. When faced with someone saying
"someone has done something in a car that upset me" then they look at
the likely consequences of not doing something vs the hard work and
probably outcome of doing something and file it in the "too hard
basket".

Every day, (according to people here) thousands of drivers do bad
things. But thousands aren't dying. A few times a year someone gets
aggro with a firearm, the chances of someone dying are far higher. So
the cops caclulate.

Sure, it ain't fair. It might change if there was enough desire to
have it change. But as most people value their convenience above
everyone else's, and as few are touched by road rage and those that
are feel safe enough in cars.... It will stay being unfair.

Zebee

Zebee Johnstone said:

In aus.bicycle on 14 Jul 2006 08:06:18 GMT

dtmeister said:

Yes I know, but going on the posts in this forum, it seems that reports
made by cyclists and even drivers against assault doesn't go far. They
don't have the resources to investigate these incidents in the same
way they would investigate assault with a firearm.

Biggest hassle I suspect is that there are very few legit reasons to
carry a firearm, but many to drive a motor vehicle.

And even fewer legit reasons to wave the gun about, but many to be
moving the vehicle.

So it boils down to "he said, she said" and to disentangle that is
damn near impossible without witnesses who are willing to testify.

Whereas a gun being waved is way easier to determine if it happened
and was legit, and more people will look and be willing to testify,

Cops are very practical people. When faced with someone saying
"someone has done something in a car that upset me" then they look at
the likely consequences of not doing something vs the hard work and
probably outcome of doing something and file it in the "too hard
basket".

Every day, (according to people here) thousands of drivers do bad
things. But thousands aren't dying. A few times a year someone gets
aggro with a firearm, the chances of someone dying are far higher. So
the cops caclulate.

Sure, it ain't fair. It might change if there was enough desire to
have it change. But as most people value their convenience above
everyone else's, and as few are touched by road rage and those that
are feel safe enough in cars.... It will stay being unfair.

Umm, I think we seem to pretty much be in agreeance. 🙂 We both agree
that :

* Generally people don't see it as a major problem, so it's unlikely to
change - we are a minority

* The police are busy and can't investigate every road rage incident

* Drivers feels much safer than we do even in road rage incidents

I still think that legislation changes that clarify the issue that
threatening someone with your car is actually serious, backed up with
enforcement would be very good thing. Road rage _is_ becoming more
serious as the roads congest. Maybe a few high profile examples, I'd
love to see "Motorist jailed for 5 years for threatening to kill
cyclist/driver/pedestrian with car". Might make the rest think twice.

--
..dt

In aus.bicycle on 14 Jul 2006 10:04:56 GMT

dtmeister said:

I still think that legislation changes that clarify the issue that
threatening someone with your car is actually serious, backed up with
enforcement would be very good thing. Road rage _is_ becoming more
serious as the roads congest. Maybe a few high profile examples, I'd
love to see "Motorist jailed for 5 years for threatening to kill
cyclist/driver/pedestrian with car". Might make the rest think twice.

I doubt it.

Back to the well known "deterrence is penalty combined with
certainty".

I doubt many people do such things with a cop car there.

Plus very few such actions are committed by people who are weighing
the odds, most are done by people who are already unbalanced and sure
they are in the right.

And again, you get the "he said, she said" thing. So while there
might be a high profile case, the only way it would get up is if there
were a lot of witnesses and a very clear case. The bod who hassled a
motorcyclist and caused him to crash, and then came back for another
go, hitting and paralysing a woman who was helping the rider for
example. That was high profile and the guy was given a stiff
sentence.

It was also unusual, and most aggro types wouldn't see themselves as
like that. Or, I suspect, like any other high profile clear cut
case. They'd see themselves as in the right and nothing like those
people. Anyone who thinks it right to attack another isn't thinking
clearly about cause and effect, or how it appears to a court, or
consequences to themselves unless those consequences are utterly
obvious and right *there*.

Plus if there were no witnesses and no one was actually *hurt* then
they wouldn't put themselves in the same class at all.

They wouldn't do it near a cop because they have this disconnect
about "right" and "legal" like just about everyone else. How many
cyclists run red lights with a cop car about? Not as many as do when
there isn't one!

Zebee

I was rather hoping that seeing it was "one of their own"
unfortunately killed this week in Melbourne, there may be a change of
attitude from the police in regard to preventative action in matters
like this. Somehow we have to get it across that we are mostly
responsible commuters with a right to complete our journey in safety
and that a more active response from them may save a life.

On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 14:51:38 +1000, "Paul (NCC/CS)." <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Resound said:

That's just astonishing. I really do wonder how some people justify
their behaviour to themselves, never mind anyone else. Here's hoping he
gets what's coming to him.

part of the trouble is actually getting the Police interested also.

Hopefully they will be if and when i get the number plate.

so far though I have rung them, faxed them, begged them,
but not much response.

we're horrified we cyclists,
but until there is a death, they're yawning.

it seems they always wait until it's too late.

pauly

Quoted message said:

--
Resound

AndrewJ said:

If this driver regularly behaves like this at known times and known
locations then it will only be a matter of time before his/her vehicle
is off the road.

The community won't tolerate this behaviour.

Unfortunately this *incident* sounds a tad too familiar - by that I infer something like this has occured twice before to people I know. By all means this kind of extreme stupidity it *not* a common occurance and shouldn't be seen as any excuse to inadvertently create another suburban myth about why we shouldn't ride on the roads yadayadayada.

Truth is, and most people responding to Pauls post realise this, is that the individual concerened is severely unbalanced. Is isn't about you, the bike, the other driver involved, this bloke has obviously got other issues going on. Road rage is seems to me to be a combination of poor impulse control and a illogical reaction to a momentary situation.

Go to the police, make a complaint, here's some tips that may help,
http://www.massbug.org.au/twiki/pub/MASSBUG/WebHome/Bike_Tipsreportingtopolice.pdf

One more thing Paul, please take time out and have a damn fine weekend doing some diversional stuff to destress from this [censored]. :p

In aus.bicycle on Fri, 14 Jul 2006 21:56:12 +1000

Stewart said:

I was rather hoping that seeing it was "one of their own"
unfortunately killed this week in Melbourne, there may be a change of
attitude from the police in regard to preventative action in matters
like this. Somehow we have to get it across that we are mostly
responsible commuters with a right to complete our journey in safety
and that a more active response from them may save a life.

Be interesting to talk to coppers about it.

When I have, they tend to say "we do want to. But the odds are dead
against it."

A number of factors make it hard. How they are assessed for
performance - which changes lots! But as far as I can tell it's about
ticking boxes and some boxes are way easier to tick than others.

And they get a hell of a lot of "he said, she said". Stories
changing. People with vague stories and "do something". People not
willing to follow up.

The combination of those is manpower. Only so many hours, only so
many cops. A big chunk of legwork dealing with a vague report from a
cyclist with no witnesses or evidence takes time and effort from jobs
they might actually complete.

There are cops over on aus.cars or aus.motorcycles you could ask. The
ones on aus.moto tend to be a little more alternative transport
friendly though 🙂

What would be good is teaching people how to report these things.
I've got no idea of the key words and phrases, of the things that they
need to make following up somethingn they reckon is worth while.

I seem to be riding in a very quiet bit of Sydney on my daily commute,
no problems from cars at all, they are very patient sitting behind me
up hills until I can move past cars to let them by for example. I've
got a camera I could mount on the bars but no need to use it. If I
was getting more hassles then I think that would be the best deal -
camera evidence would make most cops very happy.

Zebee

In aus.bicycle on Sat, 15 Jul 2006 08:02:07 +1000

cfsmtb said:

Go to the police, make a complaint, here's some tips that may help,
http://tinyurl.com/f65xf

Good stuff!

I note that there is a "menacing driving" charge in NSW according to
this, be interesting to get some idea of what behaviour would lead to
a charge like this sticking.

How easy is it to show that someone "should have known"? As in get
done for (2)?

I remember Alice on aus.moto giving some tips on beating certain
speeding charges, where the idea was to sow doubt as to whether the
bod on the stand really knew what they were talking about.

In the case of (2) below, imagine a lawyer saying "bicycles pass close
to cars all the time, how can the mere fact of my client's car being
close to them be menacing?" Or "See how close cars in traffic are to
each other, a cyclist on the road must be used to that, how can they
feel menaced because my client's car was close behind?"

In the case this thread is about, the surging is an obvious bit of
menacing behaviour. Will less obvious ones get up? Maybe we need a
list of behaviours people have witnessed or been victims of, and hash
out how to present those as menacing, and do some nitpicking as the
defendant's lawyer would to show how the defendant wouldn't know it
was menacing. Get the practice in describing behaviour in a way hard
to weasel out of.

And possibly in working out how to deal with said behaviour... Would
acting menaced help? Only with witnesses I guess.

Zebee

Section 43 Menacing driving
(1) Offence intent to menace
A person must not drive a motor vehicle on a road or road related
area in a manner that menaces another person with the intention of
menacing that other person. Maximum penalty: 30 penalty units or
imprisonment for 18 months or both (first offence) or 50 penalty
units or imprisonment for 2 years or both (subsequent offence).
(2) Offence possibility of menace
A person must not drive a motor vehicle on a road or road related
area in a manner that menaces another person if the person ought
to have known that the other person might be menaced.
Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units or imprisonment for 12 months
or both (first offence) or 30 penalty units or imprisonment for 18
months or both (subsequent offence).
(3) Application of section This section applies:
(a) whether the other person is menaced by a threat of personal
injury or by a threat of damage to property, and
(b) whether or not that person or that property is on a road or
road related area.
(4) Defence. A person is not guilty of an offence under this section
if the person could not, in the circumstances, reasonably avoid
menacing the other person.
(5) Double jeopardy. A person is not liable to be convicted of:
(a) both an offence under subsection (1) and an offence under
subsection (2), or
(b) both an offence under this section and an offence under
section 42 , arising out of a single incident.

[quote="Paul (NCC/CS)."]Hi,

he threatened to outright kill me and run me down in his jeep.


Seems to me the perp has stated his intentions. Any follow up action on his part would it seems to me be attempted murder.

You have to take the time to report to your local station at the first opportunity and tell them you want to make a statement. Mr Plod is often very busy so offer to come back later (like after tea) if they are busy. Plod will appriciate this beleive me.

I have had a similar experience..........the perp in my case was a complete psycho. I suspected or at least made it known to the police that I suspected he was a speed freak such was his behaviour.

Follow up as well. In my case they said he was an "interesting character".