Road race speeds

sparknote_s said:

Ok here is my question. Take an average cat 5 road race. Other than hills and other conditions like severe wind which might slow the pack down, will the main pack ever really drop below 20 mph?

Like on rolling terrain where you might have medium to long "inclines" not "hills" will the speed still stay 20 mph or over?

If so, what conditions would cause the pack to slow down, if not a hill.

And in those conditions where speed drops below 20, do most people switch to the small ring?

Thanks.

i've been in elite races where on the flat it's dropped below that speed momentarily -- can sometimes happen after very hard sections and there's been lots of chasing and attacking and no one wants to go on the front... i'd stay on the big ring, but maybe shift down a couple of sprockets as the speed will pick up.

you must ride a few races and learn to "read" them. at your earliest opportunity go to a race and get stuck in. it doesn't matter much in your first races whether you win, stay in the bunch or get dropped. you're there for the experience and to start learning and the sooner you start the better.

ric

Learning how to race is something that you never stop doing.

Take note of rider position (where are the strong riders?), learn to read bunch moves and learn positioning in a sprint (it's an art McEwen uses regularly).

I haven't raced much, but my experience tends to support what ric said. If you're in a crit, each course tends to dictate the rhythm of the pack; the pack tends to relax after a hard hill (unless an attack is launched) and pick up gradually after.

Speed rarely dips below 20mph in the elite pack but would hover around 20 in a cat 5 race, i would imagine. Just go to the race and give it a shot, don't worry about getting dropped. Think of it as training. Another thing that should give you some optimism is the fact that the pack will give you an incredible amount of momentum and extra speed simply due to the volume of air pushed aside; get to the back and just "sit in" for the first bit and experience the benefit of the draft. It'll be easy! 🙂

the last cat 5 race i did the average speed for the leaders was around 25 and mine was around 18. just go have fun the first couple times and learn bike control riding in group stuff like that

You asked the same question in another forum and I will say it again.........there is no speed limit in a race. I will crankout 53x11 downhill going 35 mph+ if I can. Forget about your 100 rpm cadence in your small ring. If you can't crank out 53 x 16 for a minute or so, you will get dropped. I am a cat4 in my second season. I am sure there a lot of guys like me in your cat4/5 race. At the front let's say chasing down a break, I can crank out 53 x 15 or 14 averaging about 26 mph to 27 mph (max can hit 30 mph+) for 3 to 5 minutes. That's roughly 310+ watts for me. If you have good pack riding skill, that shouldn't be too hard to follow. What this means is that start riding your big ring. No one said racing is easy. Training to race is even a lot harder. Small ring is for hill. The only time when the pack rides slower than 20 mph is after a hard chase effort. Would you still be with the pack then that's the question. Of course, as soon as the pack slows down, there would be another counter attack. Then it is all 26 mph all over again. 😄

sparknote_s said:

Ok here is my question. Take an average cat 5 road race. Other than hills and other conditions like severe wind which might slow the pack down, will the main pack ever really drop below 20 mph?

Like on rolling terrain where you might have medium to long "inclines" not "hills" will the speed still stay 20 mph or over?

If so, what conditions would cause the pack to slow down, if not a hill.

And in those conditions where speed drops below 20, do most people switch to the small ring?

Thanks.

BlueJersey,

Right, that's why I want a gear large enough on my cassette to allow me to pedal 100 rpm in the big ring. Same speeds, just more rpm and in a larger cog. Somebody like you might be in 53x19 at 80-90 rpm and I would be in 53x21 or 50x21 at 100-110 rpm. And if you're in 53x15 or so, then I'll be a little easier gear but faster rpm. Get what I mean? This is why I want a 12-25 vs 12-23 and possibly compact crank.

Exaple, if the speed dipped below 21 or 22, in a 12-23 I could not pedal at 100 rpm in the big ring (it'd be faster)

sparknote_s said:

BlueJersey,

Right, that's why I want a gear large enough on my cassette to allow me to pedal 100 rpm in the big ring. Same speeds, just more rpm and in a larger cog. Somebody like you might be in 53x19 at 80-90 rpm and I would be in 53x21 or 50x21 at 100-110 rpm. And if you're in 53x15 or so, then I'll be a little easier gear but faster rpm. Get what I mean? This is why I want a 12-25 vs 12-23 and possibly compact crank.

Exaple, if the speed dipped below 21 or 22, in a 12-23 I could not pedal at 100 rpm in the big ring (it'd be faster)

12-25 would be fine. I can ride 18-19 mph in 53/23 and 19-22 in 53/21 depending upon cadence. If I remember correctly, 53/23 at 100 rpm gets me right at 19mph. So there's your big ring range for that speed.

Granted you don't want to be riding the 53/25, if you need to go that low, it's small chainring time.

John

sparknote_s said:

BlueJersey,

Right, that's why I want a gear large enough on my cassette to allow me to pedal 100 rpm in the big ring. Same speeds, just more rpm and in a larger cog. Somebody like you might be in 53x19 at 80-90 rpm and I would be in 53x21 or 50x21 at 100-110 rpm. And if you're in 53x15 or so, then I'll be a little easier gear but faster rpm. Get what I mean? This is why I want a 12-25 vs 12-23 and possibly compact crank.

Exaple, if the speed dipped below 21 or 22, in a 12-23 I could not pedal at 100 rpm in the big ring (it'd be faster)

There's no rule that says you have to lock out the little ring for a crit race. Nothing wrong with using the little ring in a crit when you need it. Turning the corner, heading uphill, a shift to the little ring may be the quickest way to get what you need.

Your 12-23 gearing should be fine. Time to quit worrying and start racing. Try to go out and hang onto the back of the pack as long as you can, stay out of trouble, hold your lines around corners. And expect to be dropped on the final laps.

I'm going to start racing as soon as I can, and I was wonderingabout race speeds, too. I think BlueJersey might start chiming in, but ignore him! If you're saying that the pack hits 26 and stays at 26, say, in a crit, then that seems pretty unlikely that I'll be able to keep up because I can, at my maximum effort alone, stay at 24 for a given distance for a short amount of time. What's the deal?

You can ignore me here but when comes to race time, riders like myself set the pace. That's no deal. Is called surges in races.

AmpedCycle said:

I'm going to start racing as soon as I can, and I was wonderingabout race speeds, too. I think BlueJersey might start chiming in, but ignore him! If you're saying that the pack hits 26 and stays at 26, say, in a crit, then that seems pretty unlikely that I'll be able to keep up because I can, at my maximum effort alone, stay at 24 for a given distance for a short amount of time. What's the deal?

AmpedCycle said:

I'm going to start racing as soon as I can, and I was wonderingabout race speeds, too. I think BlueJersey might start chiming in, but ignore him! If you're saying that the pack hits 26 and stays at 26, say, in a crit, then that seems pretty unlikely that I'll be able to keep up because I can, at my maximum effort alone, stay at 24 for a given distance for a short amount of time. What's the deal?

26 mph is very common in crits (even in cat5). It's really not that hard when your're in the draft. Blue Jersey is right, it's about the surges and being able to keep up when they happen and being able to hang on the last couple of laps. I'm sure most of the guys racing at 25 mph+ couldn't do a ITT at the same speeds, that's why average speed really doesn't have much to do with racing capabilities. It's more about bike handling, keeping with the surges, riding smart and learning the game (which I'm just starting to). Before racing, I started doing a couple of different training rides that really helped prepare me:
1. Long TT style intervals- 15 minute warm-up then 45 minutes at 84-90% MHR
2. Sprint Intervals- 3 minutes at 93-100% MHR with a recovery to about 80%

The first has helped acclimate me to riding at a hard pace for an hour at a time (the length of our weekly crit). The second has helped me be able to bridge gaps and recover.

You'll never know if you can keep up with the pack if you don't try.

BlueJersey said:

You can ignore me here but when comes to race time, riders like myself set the pace. That's no deal. Is called surges in races.

Dude you're a Cat 4, get a hold of yourself.

sparknote_s said:

BlueJersey,

Right, that's why I want a gear large enough on my cassette to allow me to pedal 100 rpm in the big ring. Same speeds, just more rpm and in a larger cog. Somebody like you might be in 53x19 at 80-90 rpm and I would be in 53x21 or 50x21 at 100-110 rpm. And if you're in 53x15 or so, then I'll be a little easier gear but faster rpm. Get what I mean? This is why I want a 12-25 vs 12-23 and possibly compact crank.

Exaple, if the speed dipped below 21 or 22, in a 12-23 I could not pedal at 100 rpm in the big ring (it'd be faster)

you need to stop worrying about your gearing, and just do a race. like I said before, a 39/53 and 12-23 setup is the most common, and will work perfectly. the only time you should worry about race gearing is if it's very hilly, then you might want to get a 12-25 cassette, or bigger.

stop worrying about what gear you are in. once you get some experience you will not have these silly questions. race!

What are you talking about??? That's what racing is.

Roadie_scum said:

Dude you're a Cat 4, get a hold of yourself.

I think it all comes down to what gear YOU are comfortable in... When the pace slows right down I'll still be in my 53X17 at 30kmh... I'm still "soft pedalling" at probably 80rpm or so, but if an attack comes or the pace gradually starts picking up again I'm already sitting in a gear I'm comfortable in to start building a little speed up before working it down to the 14 or 13 cog. My friend I train with is constantly one geear up on me the whole time, if he's in a 53X15 I'm still in my 16 or 17, the other day we were coming back with a 50kmh tailwind, he was in his 13, I was still in my 14 and 15 spinning along at 45-50kmh... You have to learn what gear is right for yourself with time, just because I'm in my 17 doesn't mean you should be or have to be too.

Be aware of extreme crossovers as well... I personally wouldn't be riding a 53X23 for 2 reasons...

1) You are putting the chain at an extreme angle to the top of the block

2) A 39X17 is the same rollout as a 53X23 and you aren't stressing your drivetrain since a 17 is probably 4 down from the top on a 10spd block with a 23 up top.

Its also interesting to note that a 53X19 is the same as a 39X14 except now you are slightly crossing the chain in the 39 to the lower end of the block but not as extreme as the 53X23.

BlueJersey said:

What are you talking about??? That's what racing is.

'riders like myself set the pace'

Just take it easy on the attitude. You aren't particularly experienced, and even if you were, why talk down to this guy? He's clearly a little worried about racing, which is understandable. I was too when I started. He's also trying to be analytical about his sport, which is very good if you want to improve. I agree with you that he is concerned about something that isn't too important. Then again, at least he's thinking. As long as you learn to get good advice and think clearly, that's never going to lose a race and might just win one.

As far as your comments, racing can work out lots of different ways. I've seen and been in races where everyone soft pedals at 24km/h for quite a while not because it's been hard, but because noone wants to set the pace. I've also been in races where a good consistent speed is ridden. I'm talking high level racing here, not 4's.

Sparknotes, as far as gearing, it's a good thing to think about. However, don't worry about always spinning a certain rpm - just make sure you can ride comfortably and follow accelerations with the gears you ride on the terrain you race on. I rode 53-39 with a 12-25 and was never troubled by my gearing. I have just switched to 50-34 with an 11-23 and that seems good too. Unless you can afford/already have a lot of different cassettes for different conditions, don't worry about it. Even then there are probably much smarter things to spend your money on. Any decent road bike should have plenty of gears for racing unless you are riding an extremely hilly course. Spinning 100 all the time is a myth. Just be comfortable and don't let your gear get so big relative to the speed you are travelling at that you can't follow an acceleration. It would be very rare for me to be out of the big ring in a crit unless it has a major hill in it (and even then...) but work out what is right for you. It's happened before.

Racing is hard. Racing is fun. If you are very aerobically fit you will likely have no problem following surges towards the end of the race even if you are not a sprinter type. Also, you will be well suited to hilly road races, stage races and time trials. Give it a go. Find out what you're good at. There's more than one type of race. And don't count yourself out before you start (or let anyone else). You'll probably find once you're comfortable in the bunch you can surge with the best of them.

[As a side note, for all the talk about tactics, I know several bike racers who have gone to p/1/2 in their first two years, common to all of them is good aerobic fitness, not some god-given gift for race tactics. They aren't tactical geniuses, but they all learnt quickly by being smart, talking to people who knew and racing and training their rings off. Tactics are important, but they aren't some kind of mythical unknowable other - get out there and you'll learn quickly.]

a compact crankset is not an option for a racer, you will certainly be "undergeared" at some point.

sparknote_s said:

BlueJersey,

Right, that's why I want a gear large enough on my cassette to allow me to pedal 100 rpm in the big ring. Same speeds, just more rpm and in a larger cog. Somebody like you might be in 53x19 at 80-90 rpm and I would be in 53x21 or 50x21 at 100-110 rpm. And if you're in 53x15 or so, then I'll be a little easier gear but faster rpm. Get what I mean? This is why I want a 12-25 vs 12-23 and possibly compact crank.

Exaple, if the speed dipped below 21 or 22, in a 12-23 I could not pedal at 100 rpm in the big ring (it'd be faster)

Hypnospin said:

a compact crankset is not an option for a racer, you will certainly be "undergeared" at some point.

Why a compact is a good idea in terms of gearing selection for a racer:

(50/11) > (53/12)

(34/23) < (39/25)

Get it?

It may not be a good idea because the extra 2 tooth jump can cause shifting issues (as I'm currently discovering).

Thanks Roadie_Scum for sharing your experience. I think it is really cool when experienced racers share their knowledge in a helpful but non-elitist way.

NW