Rivendell tire TPI?

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jim Rogers said:

All the talk about tires lately got me wondering about the
threads per inch in the casings of Rivendell tires.

Anyone know the TPI for the Roll-y Pol-y and/or Ruffy
Tuffy?

Why not ask Rivendell? They'll know.

These wonderful tires should not be judged by "normal" tpi
numbers as they use a kevlar wrapped thread in the casing.
It's just Apples and Mangos. Tom

--
Bruni Bicycles
"Where art meets science"
brunibicycles.com
410.426.3420
Paul Southworth <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jim Rogers said:

All the talk about tires lately got me wondering about the threads per
inch in the casings of Rivendell tires.

Anyone know the TPI for the Roll-y Pol-y and/or Ruffy Tuffy?

Why not ask Rivendell? They'll know.

Quoted message said:

Why not ask Rivendell? They'll know.

They're a small operation and I hate to tie up their staff
for a question to which someone here might know the answer.
(Sure enough, when I called to ask, the guy was away from
the phone for awhile getting the answer.)

The answer-- 127 TPI for both.

Another question-- anyone know if the "extra roundness" of
their tires is the real deal or just a marketing angle? Are
they really any (or much) rounder in cross-section than
other tires? If so, does it really make that much difference
in their performance?

--Jim

Jim Rogers said:

They're a small operation and I hate to tie up their staff
for a question to which someone here might know the
answer. (Sure enough, when I called to ask, the guy was
away from the phone for awhile getting the answer.)

Quoted message said:

The answer-- 127 TPI for both.

I doubt it after seeing the claims of other tire brands that
bounce all over the range and Continental's claims that are
obviously not threads per inch... but could be filaments in
the threads, something we haven't previously counted.

Quoted message said:

Another question-- anyone know if the "extra roundness" of
their tires is the real deal or just a marketing angle?
Are they really any (or much) rounder in cross-section
than other tires? If so, does it really make that much
difference in their performance?

Please clarify. To what roundness does this refer? Tire
circumference or tire cross section and how do they claim
they measure this? A tire that is out of round goes lump-lump-
lump ad you coast down a smoothly paved road so that
isn't a problem with any tires I have ridden. Cross
sectional roundness is a function of inflation. An
inflated tire has a round cross section unless it is a
belted radial tire as on cars.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

On Tue, 11 May 2004 18:33:06 GMT, [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Jim Rogers writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Another question-- anyone know if the "extra roundness"
of their tires is the real deal or just a marketing
angle? Are they really any (or much) rounder in cross-
section than other tires? If so, does it really make that
much difference in their performance?

Please clarify. To what roundness does this refer? Tire
circumference or tire cross section and how do they claim
they measure this? A tire that is out of round goes lump-lump-
lump ad you coast down a smoothly paved road so that isn't
a problem with any tires I have ridden.

Not their claim.

Quoted message said:

Cross sectional roundness is a function of inflation. An
inflated tire has a round cross section unless it is a
belted radial tire as on cars.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

This is it...

rivendellbicycles.com10033.htmlOpen ↗

"3. It has a round cross section for good cornering. They
are rounder than any other tire, and as a result we haven't
ridden a better cornering tire. The extra degree of
roundness comes from a three part mold, instead of the usual
two part mold, which most modern road tires have...."

I had some WTB Slickasaurus tires- 26"x 1.5" - that had
almost an egg-shaped cross section. Round on the outer/tread
side (although maybe not 'rounder'? 🙂 Cut about a third off
of an egg from the pointed end and what's left is the idea
of the cross section.

Would tread design and application of the tread affect
the cross section of the tire? When you say all non-
radial belted tires have a round cross section, is this
on the interior and can be changed on the exterior
through treading?

"Jim Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Another question-- anyone know if the "extra roundness" of
their tires is the real deal or just a marketing angle?
Are they really any (or much) rounder in cross-section
than other tires? If so, does it really make that much
difference in their performance?

My original Ruffy's are "rounder" and a bit bigger then the
spanking new Ruffy's I just received, one of which I just
put on the front of my Heron. It's seemingly taller as well,
probaly a result of not as round and slightly smaller
(diameter).

The new one's measure slightly over 27mm though.

Steve B.

Dan Daniel said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Another question-- anyone know if the "extra roundness"
of their tires is the real deal or just a marketing
angle? Are they really any (or much) rounder in cross-
section than other tires? If so, does it really make
that much difference in their performance?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Please clarify. To what roundness does this refer? Tire
circumference or tire cross section and how do they claim
they measure this? A tire that is out of round goes lump-lump-
lump ad you coast down a smoothly paved road so that
isn't a problem with any tires I have ridden.

Quoted message said:

Not their claim.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Cross sectional roundness is a function of inflation. An
inflated tire has a round cross section unless it is a
belted radial tire as on cars.

Quoted message said:

This is it...

Quoted message said:

rivendellbicycles.com10Open ↗
033.html

Wow what a bunch of double-talk. Of course a 700-28 is
smaller than a 700-32 so what else is new. Besides:

:1. Sizewise, it's big (think "round and rolly"😉 with larger
: air volume than most any tire near 700x28. It's smaller
: than the comfortable and fast 700x32 Avocet slick, and
: since the Avocet is too big for most modern short reach
: (compact) brake road frames, our Roll-y Pol-y couldn't
: be that big; and yet, with a name like Roll-y Pol-y, it
: is fatter and more round than any other tire close to
: its size. The designation on the sidewall is 700x28 due
: to some Japanese law we're told, but it measures a true
: 27mm wide on most road rims.

Either they are using the correct tire cross section size or
they aren't. Rolly poly or not it cannot have a larger air
volume than any other 28c tire unless the casing has zero
thickness. Tread thickness does not factor into the 28 of
28mm cross section, only the casing OD when inflated and
that is always round, as I explained above.

Quoted message said:

"3. It has a round cross section for good cornering. They
are rounder than any other tire, and as a result we
haven't ridden a better cornering tire. The extra degree
of roundness comes from a three part mold, instead of the
usual two part mold, which most modern road tires have..."

Oh hogwash! The roundness comes from basic physics of an
inflated inelastic thin walled tube. That is what a bicycle
tire casing is and all of them have a round cross section.
Tread rubber can be formed to other shapes as we see in
knobby tires but the tire IS round in cross section. There
is no way they are more or less round.

On top of that, the part smooth and part cosmetically micro-
ribbed tread does nothing for traction and as the ad copy
states, it tries to satisfy those who want slicks and those
who want patterned tread. Well that tells me they don't know
the difference.

Quoted message said:

I had some WTB Slickasaurus tires- 26"x 1.5" - that had
almost an egg-shaped cross section. Round on the
outer/tread side (although maybe not 'rounder'? 🙂 Cut
about a third off of an egg from the pointed end and
what's left is the idea of the cross section.

Your shape was in the tread, not the tire casing and the
thinner the tread the less that part of the tire will
deviate from perfectly round.

Quoted message said:

Would tread design and application of the tread affect the
cross section of the tire? When you say all non-radial
belted tires have a round cross section, is this on the
interior and can be changed on the exterior through
treading?

The casing will be round. Obviously you can stick a number
of odd shapes on top of that but the only way it will remain
round is with NO tread rubber.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

On Wed, 12 May 2004 00:16:18 GMT, [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

On top of that, the part smooth and part cosmetically micro-
ribbed tread does nothing for traction and as the ad copy
states, it tries to satisfy those who want slicks and those
who want patterned tread. Well that tells me they don't
know the difference.

I actually think that this is a joke on their part. I don't
know if they have a strong opinion on file tread versus
smooth, but the alternating pattern is a silly thing that I
believe they would laugh at as quickly as you.

Every now and then the Rivendell people actually put their
money where their humor is, not just where their next
mortgage payment is going to come from 🙂 Of course,
personally, of all the places on a bike to be making jokes,
my contact patch with the road is not a source of humor or
silly fashion statements. To each their own....

Thanks for your other comments.

Quoted message said:

Dan Daniel said:

Quoted message said:

> Another question-- anyone know if the "extra roundness"
> of their tires is the real deal or just a marketing
> angle? Are they really any (or much) rounder in cross-
> section than other tires? If so, does it really make
> that much difference in their performance?

Cross sectional roundness is a function of inflation. An
inflated tire has a round cross section unless it is a
belted radial tire as on cars.

"3. It has a round cross section for good cornering. They
are rounder than any other tire, and as a result we
haven't ridden a better cornering tire. The extra degree
of roundness comes from a three part mold, instead of the
usual two part mold, which most modern road tires
have..."

Oh hogwash! The roundness comes from basic physics of an
inflated inelastic thin walled tube. That is what a
bicycle tire casing is and all of them have a round cross
section. Tread rubber can be formed to other shapes as we
see in knobby tires but the tire IS round in cross
section. There is no way they are more or less round.

The casing may be round on all tires, but the tread rubber
seems to be frequently formed to less round shapes. What
the Rivendell text above seems to be saying, and what I
have experienced by riding on these tires, is that the
Rolly Poly / Ruffy Tuffy tires have very round profiled
tread--a continuously smooth curve all the way around the
edge of the tire.

In actual riding, they are the best cornering tire I've ever
ridden. Without additional effort on my part, I find myself
leaning over more than I have on any other rubber. The tread
is basically slick, with only a hint of a pattern on it.
They're easy rolling, easy mounting and so far have shown
good protection vs. sharp road hazards.

Jobst, no matter the description, in reality the Rivendell
tires seem to be very much in line with what I've read about
your opinions on proper bicycle tires. If you ever decide to
try them, I think that you will like them very much.

Regards,

Greg
--
Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?"
"][email hidden] "You uudecode it."
zer0.org~gsutterOpen ↗ "I I I decode it?"

Quoted message said:

On top of that, the part smooth and part cosmetically micro-
ribbed tread does nothing for traction and as the ad copy
states, it tries to satisfy those who want slicks and
those who want patterned tread. Well that tells me they
don't know the difference.

I think Grant's tongue was firmly in cheek, there. At least
that's how I've always read it.

As for the cross section diameter, I think Grant was
referring to the nominal vs actual issue where "700 x 28"
tires actually measure 25 mm in cross section; the Rolly
Polys being 27 mm actual are wider than many tires marked
"700 x 28."

I've had clinchers that were less than round on the bike,
being taller than they were wide. What the actual casing
shape on the inside was, I don't know but presume was round
in cross section. Physics pretty much demands this. But on
the outside, probably thanks to thicker rubber at the center
of the tread, the cross section profile wasn't round. Avocet
FasGrips were round in cross section profile IME, but lots
of other tires weren't.

Tim McNamara said:

I've had clinchers that were less than round on the bike,
being taller than they were wide. What the actual casing
shape on the inside was, I don't know but presume was
round in cross section. Physics pretty much demands this.
But on the outside, probably thanks to thicker rubber at
the center of the tread, the cross section profile wasn't
round. Avocet FasGrips were round in cross section profile
IME, but lots of other tires weren't.

The Avocet 700x23 (actually 24.5mm at 115 psi if anyone
cares about that) FasGrips I ride appear to be perfectly
"round" in cross section. They last about 1,500 miles on the
rear. And the wire-bead model costs about $25, a relative
bargain in a bicycle tire. What else could one want from a
bicycle tire?

Gregory Sutter said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Cross sectional roundness is a function of inflation.
> An inflated tire has a round cross section unless it is
> a belted radial tire as on cars.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"3. It has a round cross section for good cornering.
They are rounder than any other tire, and as a result we
haven't ridden a better cornering tire. The extra degree
of roundness comes from a three part mold, instead of
the usual two part mold, which most modern road tires
have..."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Oh hogwash! The roundness comes from basic physics of an
inflated inelastic thin walled tube. That is what a
bicycle tire casing is and all of them have a round cross
section. Tread rubber can be formed to other shapes as we
see in knobby tires but the tire IS round in cross
section. There is no way they are more or less round.

Quoted message said:

The casing may be round on all tires, but the tread rubber
seems to be frequently formed to less round shapes. What
the Rivendell text above seems to be saying, and what I
have experienced by riding on these tires, is that the
Rolly Poly / Ruffy Tuffy tires have very round profiled
tread--a continuously smooth curve all the way around the
edge of the tire.

Isn't that what I just said. Besides how much rounder can it
get than a circular arc that, for instance, Avocet and
Michelin use?

Quoted message said:

In actual riding, they are the best cornering tire I've
ever ridden. Without additional effort on my part, I find
myself leaning over more than I have on any other rubber.
The tread is basically slick, with only a hint of a
pattern on it.

So how is that better than other tires you have used? Did
those tires cause you to crash? Did they slip in corners and
how did you recover from these events? Your story is like so
many other testimonials that make such claims but no basis
for comparison with other tires.

Quoted message said:

They're easy rolling, easy mounting and so far have shown
good protection vs. sharp road hazards.

How sharp? Do they prevent puncture vine flats or glass cuts
from freshly broken bottles? You say these things without
flinching when you show no evidence why others should take
your testimonial as valid. It's not that you are lying but
that you don't show why you believe what you say.

Quoted message said:

Jobst, no matter the description, in reality the
Rivendell tires seem to be very much in line with what
I've read about your opinions on proper bicycle tires. If
you ever decide to try them, I think that you will like
them very much.

I like a lot of tires but my interest lies in how well they
wear, how well the hold on wet pavement and whether the
sidewalls fray. I got off Michelins because their rubber
cracked and didn't wear well. I'm not willing to become a
life tester for the latest tire when I have ones that last
more than twice as long as the ones I previously used.
Avocets do that reliably.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Gregory Sutter said:

In actual riding, they are the best cornering tire I've
ever ridden. Without additional effort on my part, I find
myself leaning over more than I have on any other rubber.
The tread is basically slick, with only a hint of a
pattern on it.

So how is that better than other tires you have used? Did
those tires cause you to crash? Did they slip in corners
and how did you recover from these events? Your story is
like so many other testimonials that make such claims but
no basis for comparison with other tires.

OK, here are some comparisons. I used Michelin Axials before
these. They were good tires but did not inspire confidence
in the corners. It's not that they slipped, but that I
didn't lean over as far as I do with the current tires.
Likewise with Michelin CX Sprint, and several others long
gone. I have a certain comfort or perceived safety level
when riding, and won't do things which cause too much
perceived danger. On these tires I just lean over farther
without feeling unsafe than I have on any other tire. That's
difficult for me to quantify.

I also rode on Vittoria Couriers for a short while. I do not
recommend those easy-flatting, slippery tires to anyone.
Once on a moderate downhill I was braking hard, in a
straight line, to a stop on rough pavement, when the tires
slipped and I did some two-wheel sliding, an experience
which I do not wish to repeat. I have never had the front
wheel slide while going straight on other rubber before or
since. (I trashed the Couriers ASAP after that last-straw
experience.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They're easy rolling, easy mounting and so far have shown
good protection vs. sharp road hazards.

How sharp? Do they prevent puncture vine flats or glass
cuts from freshly broken bottles? You say these things
without flinching when you show no evidence why others
should take your testimonial as valid. It's not that you
are lying but that you don't show why you believe what
you say.

Obviously I haven't tested a dozen tires in identical
conditions over a broken glass course. However, I do ride in
San Francisco, have rolled over broken glass a bunch of
times, and on these tires, have not flatted yet. But since
such attestations are usually worthwhile only in aggregate
with others', and due to the lack of scientific rigor in my
meandering around the city and not flatting, adding further
detail seemed unnecessary. If it matters, I once rolled over
what seemed like an entire bottle's worth, with both tires,
while traveling north in the Valencia St. bike lane (at
17th) at about 20mph and didn't flat.

I hope this explanation has added credence to my statements
about my experiences with these tires.

Greg
--
Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?"
"][email hidden] "You uudecode it."
zer0.org~gsutterOpen ↗ "I I I decode it?"

Gregory Sutter said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In actual riding, they are the best cornering tire I've
ever ridden. Without additional effort on my part, I
find myself leaning over more than I have on any other
rubber. The tread is basically slick, with only a hint
of a pattern on it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So how is that better than other tires you have used? Did
those tires cause you to crash? Did they slip in corners
and how did you recover from these events? Your story is
like so many other testimonials that make such claims but
no basis for comparison with other tires.

Quoted message said:

OK, here are some comparisons. I used Michelin Axials
before these. They were good tires but did not inspire
confidence in the corners. It's not that they slipped, but
that I didn't lean over as far as I do with the current
tires. Likewise with Michelin CX Sprint, and several
others long gone. I have a certain comfort or perceived
safety level when riding, and won't do things which cause
too much perceived danger. On these tires I just lean over
farther without feeling unsafe than I have on any other
tire. That's difficult for me to quantify.

Why don't you try riding the Michelin tires the way you do
tires that you suppose, corner more confidently? From what
you say, you are attributing your own expectations, possibly
from promotional material, to the way you ride. I can say
for sure that in the years I have ridden from tubulars to
Specialized Touring II, to Michelin and Vittoria clinchers I
have not felt a tire slip other than crashing in the rain on
oil in the center of the lane.

The only tires that slipped were red tread Clement TT tires
that had no carbon to reduce RR. I and others slipped on
them on wet roads. The word got around to not ride red tread
tubulars in the rain. I was fortunate to recover after a
slip with these and became a believer.

Quoted message said:

I also rode on Vittoria Couriers for a short while. I do
not recommend those easy-flatting, slippery tires to
anyone. Once on a moderate downhill I was braking hard, in
a straight line, to a stop on rough pavement, when the
tires slipped and I did some two-wheel sliding, an
experience which I do not wish to repeat. I have never had
the front wheel slide while going straight on other rubber
before or since. (I trashed the Couriers ASAP after that
last-straw experience.)

So why are you riding colored tires after all that has been
said here on the subject? Comparing these tires to others
should be limited to dry pavement, if at all.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They're easy rolling, easy mounting and so far have
shown good protection vs. sharp road hazards.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How sharp? Do they prevent puncture vine flats or glass
cuts from freshly broken bottles? You say these things
without flinching when you show no evidence why others
should take your testimonial as valid. It's not that you
are lying but that you don't show why you believe what
you say.

Quoted message said:

Obviously I haven't tested a dozen tires in identical
conditions over a broken glass course. However, I do ride
in San Francisco, have rolled over broken glass a bunch of
times, and on these tires, have not flatted yet. But since
such attestations are usually worthwhile only in aggregate
with others', and due to the lack of scientific rigor in
my meandering around the city and not flatting, adding
further detail seemed unnecessary. If it matters, I once
rolled over what seemed like an entire bottle's worth,
with both tires, while traveling north in the Valencia St.
bike lane (at 17th) at about 20mph and didn't flat.

Quoted message said:

I hope this explanation has added credence to my
statements about my experiences with these tires.

It doesn't. I think if you take a razor blade and see what
difference in ability to cut tread rubber on various tires,
you'll see they all cut about the same and effortlessly when
wet. Cornering traction for most tires on the market lies
within +-5 degrees, something measurable only on calibrated
machinery or by riding on a calibrated test surface.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Gregory Sutter said:

Quoted message said:

> In actual riding, they are the best cornering tire I've
> ever ridden. Without additional effort on my part, I
> find myself leaning over more than I have on any other
> rubber. The tread is basically slick, with only a hint
> of a pattern on it.

Quoted message said:

OK, here are some comparisons. I used Michelin Axials
before these. They were good tires but did not inspire
confidence in the corners. It's not that they slipped,
but that I didn't lean over as far as I do with the
current tires. Likewise with Michelin CX Sprint, and
several others long gone. I have a certain comfort or
perceived safety level when riding, and won't do things
which cause too much perceived danger. On these tires I
just lean over farther without feeling unsafe than I have
on any other tire. That's difficult for me to quantify.

Why don't you try riding the Michelin tires the way you do
tires that you suppose, corner more confidently? From what
you say, you are attributing your own expectations,
possibly from promotional material, to the way you ride. I
can say for sure that in the years I have ridden from
tubulars to Specialized Touring II, to Michelin and
Vittoria clinchers I have not felt a tire slip other than
crashing in the rain on oil in the center of the lane.

It's not expectations or promotional material that influence
the way I ride, but the way the bicycle feels beneath me. I
tried to explain that above. They just feel better. I turn
sharper and lean over more as a result of feedback from the
machine I'm riding.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I also rode on Vittoria Couriers for a short while. I do
not recommend those easy-flatting, slippery tires to
anyone. Once on a

So why are you riding colored tires after all that has
been said here on the subject? Comparing these tires to
others should be limited to dry pavement, if at all.

I was poor, I needed tires, and they were cheap. Note that I
am no longer riding colored tires.

Quoted message said:

It doesn't. I think if you take a razor blade and see what
difference in ability to cut tread rubber on various
tires, you'll see they all cut about the same and
effortlessly when wet. Cornering traction for most tires
on the market lies within +-5 degrees, something
measurable only on calibrated machinery or by riding on a
calibrated test surface.

I imagine it's not the tread rubber that makes the
difference in puncture resistance, but the kevlar belt
beneath it. Since Rivendell tires are made by Panaracer, the
rubber itself will be no more or less cut-resistant than any
other Panaracer tire.

Seeing cornering traction test results for these tires would
be interesting, since I don't know if they really have
better traction or if they just inspire me to push the
boundaries of my cornering ability.

At this point I think I'll just say "I like them" and leave
it at that. G'day.

Greg
--
Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?"
"][email hidden] "You uudecode it."
zer0.org~gsutterOpen ↗ "I I I decode it?"

Quoted message said:

Gregory Sutter said:

Quoted message said:

> In actual riding, they are the best cornering tire I've
> ever ridden. Without additional effort on my part, I
> find myself leaning over more than I have on any other
> rubber. The tread is basically slick, with only a hint
> of a pattern on it.

Quoted message said:

OK, here are some comparisons. I used Michelin Axials
before these. They were good tires but did not inspire
confidence in the corners. It's not that they slipped,
but that I didn't lean over as far as I do with the
current tires. Likewise with Michelin CX Sprint, and
several others long gone. I have a certain comfort or
perceived safety level when riding, and won't do things
which cause too much perceived danger. On these tires I
just lean over farther without feeling unsafe than I have
on any other tire. That's difficult for me to quantify.

Why don't you try riding the Michelin tires the way you do
tires that you suppose, corner more confidently? From what
you say, you are attributing your own expectations,
possibly from promotional material, to the way you ride. I
can say for sure that in the years I have ridden from
tubulars to Specialized Touring II, to Michelin and
Vittoria clinchers I have not felt a tire slip other than
crashing in the rain on oil in the center of the lane.

It's not expectations or promotional material that influence
the way I ride, but the way the bicycle feels beneath me. I
tried to explain that above. They just feel better. I turn
sharper and lean over more as a result of feedback from the
machine I'm riding.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I also rode on Vittoria Couriers for a short while. I do
not recommend those easy-flatting, slippery tires to
anyone. Once on a

So why are you riding colored tires after all that has
been said here on the subject? Comparing these tires to
others should be limited to dry pavement, if at all.

I was poor, I needed tires, and they were cheap. Note that I
am no longer riding colored tires.

Quoted message said:

It doesn't. I think if you take a razor blade and see what
difference in ability to cut tread rubber on various
tires, you'll see they all cut about the same and
effortlessly when wet. Cornering traction for most tires
on the market lies within +-5 degrees, something
measurable only on calibrated machinery or by riding on a
calibrated test surface.

I imagine it's not the tread rubber that makes the
difference in puncture resistance, but the kevlar belt
beneath it. Since Rivendell tires are made by Panaracer, the
rubber itself will be no more or less cut-resistant than any
other Panaracer tire.

Seeing cornering traction test results for these tires would
be interesting, since I don't know if they really have
better traction or if they just inspire me to push the
boundaries of my cornering ability.

At this point I think I'll just say "I like them" and leave
it at that. G'day.

Greg
--
Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?"
"][email hidden] "You uudecode it."
zer0.org~gsutterOpen ↗ "I I I decode it?"

"Gregory Sutter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 2004-05-13, [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Gregory Sutter said:

>> In actual riding, they are the best cornering tire
>> I've ever ridden. Without additional effort on my
>> part, I find myself leaning over more than I have on
>> any other rubber. The tread is basically slick, with
>> only a hint of a pattern on it.

Quoted message said:

OK, here are some comparisons. I used Michelin Axials
before these. They were good tires but did not inspire
confidence in the corners. It's not that they slipped,
but that I didn't lean over as far as I do with the
current tires. Likewise with Michelin CX Sprint, and
several others long gone. I have a certain comfort or
perceived safety level when riding, and won't do things
which cause too much perceived danger. On these tires I
just lean over farther without feeling unsafe than I
have on any other tire. That's difficult for me to
quantify.

Why don't you try riding the Michelin tires the way you
do tires that you suppose, corner more confidently?
From what you say, you are attributing your own
expectations, possibly from promotional material, to
the way you ride. I can say for sure that in the years
I have ridden from tubulars to Specialized Touring II,
to Michelin and Vittoria clinchers I have not felt a
tire slip other than crashing in the rain on oil in the
center of the lane.

It's not expectations or promotional material that
influence the way I ride, but the way the bicycle feels
beneath me. I tried to explain that above. They just feel
better. I turn sharper and lean over more as a result of
feedback from the machine I'm riding.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I also rode on Vittoria Couriers for a short while. I
do not recommend those easy-flatting, slippery tires to
anyone. Once on a

So why are you riding colored tires after all that has
been said here on the subject? Comparing these tires to
others should be limited to dry pavement, if at all.

I was poor, I needed tires, and they were cheap. Note that
I am no longer riding colored tires.

Quoted message said:

It doesn't. I think if you take a razor blade and see
what difference in ability to cut tread rubber on
various tires, you'll see they all cut about the same
and effortlessly when wet. Cornering traction for most
tires on the market lies within +-5 degrees, something
measurable only on calibrated machinery or by riding on
a calibrated test surface.

I imagine it's not the tread rubber that makes the
difference in puncture resistance, but the kevlar belt
beneath it. Since Rivendell tires are made by Panaracer,
the rubber itself will be no more or less cut-resistant
than any other Panaracer tire.

Seeing cornering traction test results for these tires
would be interesting, since I don't know if they really
have better traction or if they just inspire me to push
the boundaries of my cornering ability.

The Roly-Poly 700x27 tires are listed as a *true* 27mm wide
tires. How wide were the Michelins and other tires you
tested? Could it be that these "other" tires were narrower,
thus causing you to have less confidence in their corning
abilities?

I ask this because I use to run Michelin Supercomp HD 700x23
tires. These tires actually measured 23mm wide. However, I
find the current Avocet Fasgrip 700x25 (all black "carbon
12" SL version) and the older Avocet Fasgrip 700x28
(black/tan sidewalls, Road 30 version) handle "better" than
the narrower Michelin. I attribute the "better" handling of
the Avocets, due to the fact that the Avocets measured wider
than the Michelin, measuring between 24-26mm wide.

Both tires had very "round" profiles, so I doubt the
roundness issue of the Roly-Poly is truly a factor.

"Gregory Sutter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 2004-05-13, [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Gregory Sutter said:

>> In actual riding, they are the best cornering tire
>> I've ever ridden. Without additional effort on my
>> part, I find myself leaning over more than I have on
>> any other rubber. The tread is basically slick, with
>> only a hint of a pattern on it.

Quoted message said:

OK, here are some comparisons. I used Michelin Axials
before these. They were good tires but did not inspire
confidence in the corners. It's not that they slipped,
but that I didn't lean over as far as I do with the
current tires. Likewise with Michelin CX Sprint, and
several others long gone. I have a certain comfort or
perceived safety level when riding, and won't do things
which cause too much perceived danger. On these tires I
just lean over farther without feeling unsafe than I
have on any other tire. That's difficult for me to
quantify.

Why don't you try riding the Michelin tires the way you
do tires that you suppose, corner more confidently?
From what you say, you are attributing your own
expectations, possibly from promotional material, to
the way you ride. I can say for sure that in the years
I have ridden from tubulars to Specialized Touring II,
to Michelin and Vittoria clinchers I have not felt a
tire slip other than crashing in the rain on oil in the
center of the lane.

It's not expectations or promotional material that
influence the way I ride, but the way the bicycle feels
beneath me. I tried to explain that above. They just feel
better. I turn sharper and lean over more as a result of
feedback from the machine I'm riding.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I also rode on Vittoria Couriers for a short while. I
do not recommend those easy-flatting, slippery tires to
anyone. Once on a

So why are you riding colored tires after all that has
been said here on the subject? Comparing these tires to
others should be limited to dry pavement, if at all.

I was poor, I needed tires, and they were cheap. Note that
I am no longer riding colored tires.

Quoted message said:

It doesn't. I think if you take a razor blade and see
what difference in ability to cut tread rubber on
various tires, you'll see they all cut about the same
and effortlessly when wet. Cornering traction for most
tires on the market lies within +-5 degrees, something
measurable only on calibrated machinery or by riding on
a calibrated test surface.

I imagine it's not the tread rubber that makes the
difference in puncture resistance, but the kevlar belt
beneath it. Since Rivendell tires are made by Panaracer,
the rubber itself will be no more or less cut-resistant
than any other Panaracer tire.

Seeing cornering traction test results for these tires
would be interesting, since I don't know if they really
have better traction or if they just inspire me to push
the boundaries of my cornering ability.

The Roly-Poly 700x27 tires are listed as a *true* 27mm wide
tires. How wide were the Michelins and other tires you
tested? Could it be that these "other" tires were narrower,
thus causing you to have less confidence in their corning
abilities?

I ask this because I use to run Michelin Supercomp HD 700x23
tires. These tires actually measured 23mm wide. However, I
find the current Avocet Fasgrip 700x25 (all black "carbon
12" SL version) and the older Avocet Fasgrip 700x28
(black/tan sidewalls, Road 30 version) handle "better" than
the narrower Michelin. I attribute the "better" handling of
the Avocets, due to the fact that the Avocets measured wider
than the Michelin, measuring between 24-26mm wide.

Both tires had very "round" profiles, so I doubt the
roundness issue of the Roly-Poly is truly a factor.

Gregory Sutter said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> In actual riding, they are the best cornering tire I've
> ever ridden. Without additional effort on my part, I
> find myself leaning over more than I have on any other
> rubber. The tread is basically slick, with only a hint
> of a pattern on it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OK, here are some comparisons. I used Michelin Axials
before these. They were good tires but did not inspire
confidence in the corners. It's not that they slipped,
but that I didn't lean over as far as I do with the
current tires. Likewise with Michelin CX Sprint, and
several others long gone. I have a certain comfort or
perceived safety level when riding, and won't do things
which cause too much perceived danger. On these tires I
just lean over farther without feeling unsafe than I
have on any other tire. That's difficult for me to
quantify.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why don't you try riding the Michelin tires the way you
do tires that you suppose, corner more confidently? From
what you say, you are attributing your own expectations,
possibly from promotional material, to the way you ride.
I can say for sure that in the years I have ridden from
tubulars to Specialized Touring II, to Michelin and
Vittoria clinchers I have not felt a tire slip other than
crashing in the rain on oil in the center of the lane.

Quoted message said:

It's not expectations or promotional material that
influence the way I ride, but the way the bicycle feels
beneath me. I tried to explain that above. They just feel
better. I turn sharper and lean over more as a result of
feedback from the machine I'm riding.

What is it you feel that makes the difference? If the tire
is not side slipping as a knobby tire does on pavement then
what is it? As I said, I have ridden many different tires
with generally smooth tread and found no difference in
feel... up to the limit of sliding out in a curve. I cannot
imagine what you feel.

The other day I had a slow leak in the front tire and
noticed the tire wandering sideways on even gently leaning
turns, much like a knobby but that was correctable by
changing tubes and re-inflating the tire.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I also rode on Vittoria Couriers for a short while. I do
not recommend those easy-flatting, slippery tires to
anyone. Once on a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So why are you riding colored tires after all that has
been said here on the subject? Comparing these tires to
others should be limited to dry pavement, if at all.

Quoted message said:

I was poor, I needed tires, and they were cheap. Note that
I am no longer riding colored tires.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It doesn't. I think if you take a razor blade and see
what difference in ability to cut tread rubber on various
tires, you'll see they all cut about the same and
effortlessly when wet. Cornering traction for most tires
on the market lies within +-5 degrees, something
measurable only on calibrated machinery or by riding on a
calibrated test surface.

Quoted message said:

I imagine it's not the tread rubber that makes the
difference in puncture resistance, but the Kevlar belt
beneath it. Since Rivendell tires are made by Panaracer,
the rubber itself will be no more or less cut-resistant
than any other Panaracer tire.

Wait a minute! We are discussing handling, not flat
resistance. Let's not get adrift here.

Quoted message said:

Seeing cornering traction test results for these tires
would be interesting, since I don't know if they really
have better traction or if they just inspire me to push
the boundaries of my cornering ability.

That's what I suspect and I think you should consider that
before unequivocally endorsing them as handling better.

Quoted message said:

At this point I think I'll just say "I like them" and
leave it at that.

I can't argue with that. Good.

Ride bike!

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]