er, so that allows you to correlate rim cracking with anodizing then? you /did/ mean that when you were advocating the use of unanodized rims after red herring consumption, right?
What does the presence or lack thereof of sockets have to do with anodizing?
I believe the original inference was the other way around - that you wouldn't want an anodized rim without the sockets due to the alleged brittleness of anodized rims.
(I make no statement as to brittleness or sockets).
"jim beam" wrote: > Tom Sherman wrote: >> Ozark Bicycle wrote: >>> On Oct 9, 8:58 pm, [email hidden] wrote: >>>> someone writes: >>>>>> I want to build a pair of 700C wheels to convert a vintage (1970s) >>>>>> bike to clincher tires. Was wondering what rims you would >>>>>> recommend? Need to be silver, 36h, look vintage (not aero nor deep >>>>>> V), and good quality. I'm about 180 pounds. >>>>> can't go wrong with some Sun cr-18s in polished alu. >>>> http://www.bikemannetwork.com/biking/p/COMPRMRDSUN/RM8491 >>>> >>>> No sockets! No good >>> >>> Horseshit >> >> The two hand built wheels I have with Sun CR-18 rims (ISO 406-mm >> size) are now about 7 years old, and show no cracking around the >> spoke holes. >> > what is your spoke tension?
Adequate.
er, so that allows you to correlate rim cracking with anodizing then? you /did/ mean that when you were advocating the use of unanodized rims after red herring consumption, right?
What does the presence or lack thereof of sockets have to do with anodizing?
The socket and anodized MA-40 cracked around the spoke holes anyway.
er, so that allows you to correlate rim cracking with anodizing then? you /did/ mean that when you were advocating the use of unanodized rims after red herring consumption, right?
What does the presence or lack thereof of sockets have to do with anodizing?
I believe the original inference was the other way around - that you wouldn't want an anodized rim without the sockets due to the alleged brittleness of anodized rims.
(I make no statement as to brittleness or sockets).
Nevertheless that socket and anodized MA-40 cracked around the spoke holes. Sockets distribute strain between the inner and outer wall. The outer anodized wall was asked to take some of the strain and cracked in the process.
Tom Sherman wrote: > "jim beam" wrote: >> Tom Sherman wrote: >>> Ozark Bicycle wrote: >>>> On Oct 9, 8:58 pm, [email hidden] wrote: >>>>> someone writes: >>>>>>> I want to build a pair of 700C wheels to convert a vintage (1970s) >>>>>>> bike to clincher tires. Was wondering what rims you would >>>>>>> recommend? Need to be silver, 36h, look vintage (not aero nor deep >>>>>>> V), and good quality. I'm about 180 pounds. >>>>>> can't go wrong with some Sun cr-18s in polished alu. >>>>> http://www.bikemannetwork.com/biking/p/COMPRMRDSUN/RM8491 >>>>> >>>>> No sockets! No good >>>> Horseshit >>> The two hand built wheels I have with Sun CR-18 rims (ISO 406-mm >>> size) are now about 7 years old, and show no cracking around the >>> spoke holes. >>> >> what is your spoke tension? > Adequate. > er, so that allows you to correlate rim cracking with anodizing then? you /did/ mean that when you were advocating the use of unanodized rims after red herring consumption, right?
What does the presence or lack thereof of sockets have to do with anodizing?
The socket and anodized MA-40 cracked around the spoke holes anyway.
but ma2's crack around the spoke hole at excess spoke tension too. neither rim cracks if spokes are tensioned correctly.
"jim beam" wrote: > er, so that allows you to correlate rim cracking with anodizing then? > you /did/ mean that when you were advocating the use of unanodized rims > after red herring consumption, right? What does the presence or lack thereof of sockets have to do with anodizing?
I believe the original inference was the other way around - that you wouldn't want an anodized rim without the sockets due to the alleged brittleness of anodized rims.
(I make no statement as to brittleness or sockets).
Nevertheless that socket and anodized MA-40 cracked around the spoke holes.
at spoke tension "as high as the rim can bear" or at 100kgf?
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Sockets distribute strain between the inner and outer wall. The outer anodized wall was asked to take some of the strain and cracked in the process.
> er, so that allows you to correlate rim cracking with anodizing > then? you /did/ mean that when you were advocating the use of > unanodized rims after red herring consumption, right?
What does the presence or lack thereof of sockets have to do with anodizing?
I believe the original inference was the other way around - that you wouldn't want an anodized rim without the sockets due to the alleged brittleness of anodized rims.
(I make no statement as to brittleness or sockets).
Nevertheless that socket and anodized MA-40 cracked around the spoke holes. Sockets distribute strain between the inner and outer wall. The outer anodized wall was asked to take some of the strain and cracked in the process.
Don't trouble jim with the facts. If he wants he can check the metallurgical textbooks about the deleterious effects of anodizing on the fatigue resistance of aluminum. It's been well-known for a long time and explains the observations made by many people over the past 25-30 years: all other things being equal, anodized rims are more prone to cracking. He likes to toss out the red herring of spoke tension in order to divert responsibility from poor little old Mavic et al, not realizing that doing so is tacit acceptance the problems caused by anodizing
In article <[email hidden]>, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> wrote:
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"jim beam" wrote: > Tom Sherman wrote: >> "jim beam" wrote: >>> Tom Sherman wrote: >>>> Ozark Bicycle wrote: >>>>> On Oct 9, 8:58 pm, [email hidden] wrote: >>>>>> someone writes: >>>>>>>> I want to build a pair of 700C wheels to convert a vintage (1970s) >>>>>>>> bike to clincher tires. Was wondering what rims you would >>>>>>>> recommend? Need to be silver, 36h, look vintage (not aero nor deep >>>>>>>> V), and good quality. I'm about 180 pounds. >>>>>>> can't go wrong with some Sun cr-18s in polished alu. >>>>>> http://www.bikemannetwork.com/biking/p/COMPRMRDSUN/RM8491
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>>>>>> No sockets! No good >>>>> Horseshit >>>> The two hand built wheels I have with Sun CR-18 rims (ISO 406-mm >>>> size) are now about 7 years old, and show no cracking around the >>>> spoke holes.
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>>> what is your spoke tension? >> Adequate.
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> er, so that allows you to correlate rim cracking with anodizing then? > you /did/ mean that when you were advocating the use of unanodized rims > after red herring consumption, right? What does the presence or lack thereof of sockets have to do with anodizing?
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The socket and anodized MA-40 cracked around the spoke holes anyway.
but ma2's crack around the spoke hole at excess spoke tension too.
But, MA-40s cracked much more readily than did MA-2s. AFAICT, the only difference was that the MA-40s were "hard anodized" while the MA-2s were not.
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neither rim cracks if spokes are tensioned correctly.
>>>>>>>> I want to build a pair of 700C wheels to convert a vintage >>>>>>>> (1970s) bike to clincher tires. Was wondering what rims >>>>>>>> you would recommend? Need to be silver, 36h, look vintage >>>>>>>> (not aero nor deep V), and good quality. I'm about 180 >>>>>>>> pounds.
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>>>>>>> can't go wrong with some Sun cr-18s in polished alu.
>>>> The two hand built wheels I have with Sun CR-18 rims (ISO >>>> 406-mm size) are now about 7 years old, and show no cracking >>>> around the spoke holes.
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>>> what is your spoke tension?
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>> Adequate.
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> er, so that allows you to correlate rim cracking with anodizing > then? you /did/ mean that when you were advocating the use of > unanodized rims after red herring consumption, right?
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What does the presence or lack thereof of sockets have to do with anodizing?
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The socket and anodized MA-40 cracked around the spoke holes anyway.
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but ma2's crack around the spoke hole at excess spoke tension too. neither rim cracks if spokes are tensioned correctly.
Not in my experience, and I have a large stack of worn out MA-2's from my bicycle and others who descend fast on rough roads. The same riders that had rim failure with MA-40's. These failures were such that rims cracked circumferentially through the brake surface leaving a rim held together by spoke sockets and eyelets. Later MA-40 rims seemed to have thinner (cosmetic) anodizing.
>>>>>>>>> I want to build a pair of 700C wheels to convert a vintage >>>>>>>>> (1970s) bike to clincher tires. Was wondering what rims >>>>>>>>> you would recommend? Need to be silver, 36h, look vintage >>>>>>>>> (not aero nor deep V), and good quality. I'm about 180 >>>>>>>>> pounds.
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>>>>>>>> can't go wrong with some Sun cr-18s in polished alu.
>>>>> The two hand built wheels I have with Sun CR-18 rims (ISO >>>>> 406-mm size) are now about 7 years old, and show no cracking >>>>> around the spoke holes.
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>>>> what is your spoke tension?
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>>> Adequate.
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>> er, so that allows you to correlate rim cracking with anodizing >> then? you /did/ mean that when you were advocating the use of >> unanodized rims after red herring consumption, right?
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> What does the presence or lack thereof of sockets have to do with > anodizing?
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The socket and anodized MA-40 cracked around the spoke holes anyway.
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but ma2's crack around the spoke hole at excess spoke tension too. neither rim cracks if spokes are tensioned correctly.
Not in my experience, and I have a large stack of worn out MA-2's from my bicycle and others who descend fast on rough roads. The same riders that had rim failure with MA-40's. These failures were such that rims cracked circumferentially through the brake surface leaving a rim held together by spoke sockets and eyelets. Later MA-40 rims seemed to have thinner (cosmetic) anodizing.
but only a couple of days ago, you told us you don't use a tensiometer, and you've been telling the rest of us for ages to tension spokes "as high as the rim can bear".
given the above, and given that you ignore known facts about properties of anisotropic materials, you're hardly in a position to attribute blame to the rim manufacturer when in fact it is your own misunderstanding that is at issue.
>>>>>>>>>> I want to build a pair of 700C wheels to convert a vintage >>>>>>>>>> (1970s) bike to clincher tires. Was wondering what rims >>>>>>>>>> you would recommend? Need to be silver, 36h, look vintage >>>>>>>>>> (not aero nor deep V), and good quality. I'm about 180 >>>>>>>>>> pounds.
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>>>>>>>>> can't go wrong with some Sun cr-18s in polished alu.
>>>>>> The two hand built wheels I have with Sun CR-18 rims (ISO >>>>>> 406-mm size) are now about 7 years old, and show no cracking >>>>>> around the spoke holes.
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>>>>> what is your spoke tension?
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>>>> Adequate.
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>>> er, so that allows you to correlate rim cracking with anodizing >>> then? you /did/ mean that when you were advocating the use of >>> unanodized rims after red herring consumption, right?
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>> What does the presence or lack thereof of sockets have to do >> with anodizing?
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> The socket and anodized MA-40 cracked around the spoke holes > anyway.
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but ma2's crack around the spoke hole at excess spoke tension too. neither rim cracks if spokes are tensioned correctly.
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Not in my experience, and I have a large stack of worn out MA-2's from my bicycle and others who descend fast on rough roads. The same riders that had rim failure with MA-40's. These failures were such that rims cracked circumferentially through the brake surface leaving a rim held together by spoke sockets and eyelets. Later MA-40 rims seemed to have thinner (cosmetic) anodizing.
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but only a couple of days ago, you told us you don't use a tensiometer, and you've been telling the rest of us for ages to tension spokes "as high as the rim can bear".
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given the above, and given that you ignore known facts about properties of anisotropic materials, you're hardly in a position to attribute blame to the rim manufacturer when in fact it is your own misunderstanding that is at issue.
"blame the rim manufacturer" for the collection of un-cracked but used up rims that I have. I don't see the logic. Where is the conncetion?
"jim beam" wrote: > Tom Sherman wrote: >> "jim beam" wrote: >>> Tom Sherman wrote: >>>> Ozark Bicycle wrote: >>>>> On Oct 9, 8:58 pm, [email hidden] wrote: >>>>>> someone writes: >>>>>>>> I want to build a pair of 700C wheels to convert a vintage (1970s) >>>>>>>> bike to clincher tires. Was wondering what rims you would >>>>>>>> recommend? Need to be silver, 36h, look vintage (not aero nor deep >>>>>>>> V), and good quality. I'm about 180 pounds. >>>>>>> can't go wrong with some Sun cr-18s in polished alu. >>>>>> http://www.bikemannetwork.com/biking/p/COMPRMRDSUN/RM8491 >>>>>> >>>>>> No sockets! No good >>>>> Horseshit >>>> The two hand built wheels I have with Sun CR-18 rims (ISO 406-mm >>>> size) are now about 7 years old, and show no cracking around the >>>> spoke holes. >>>> >>> what is your spoke tension? >> Adequate. >> > er, so that allows you to correlate rim cracking with anodizing then? > you /did/ mean that when you were advocating the use of unanodized rims > after red herring consumption, right? What does the presence or lack thereof of sockets have to do with anodizing?
The socket and anodized MA-40 cracked around the spoke holes anyway.
but ma2's crack around the spoke hole at excess spoke tension too. neither rim cracks if spokes are tensioned correctly.
In article <[email hidden]>, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> wrote:
> "jim beam" wrote: >> Tom Sherman wrote: >>> "jim beam" wrote: >>>> Tom Sherman wrote: >>>>> Ozark Bicycle wrote: >>>>>> On Oct 9, 8:58 pm, [email hidden] wrote: >>>>>>> someone writes: >>>>>>>>> I want to build a pair of 700C wheels to convert a vintage (1970s) >>>>>>>>> bike to clincher tires. Was wondering what rims you would >>>>>>>>> recommend? Need to be silver, 36h, look vintage (not aero nor deep >>>>>>>>> V), and good quality. I'm about 180 pounds. >>>>>>>> can't go wrong with some Sun cr-18s in polished alu. >>>>>>> http://www.bikemannetwork.com/biking/p/COMPRMRDSUN/RM8491 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No sockets! No good >>>>>> Horseshit >>>>> The two hand built wheels I have with Sun CR-18 rims (ISO 406-mm >>>>> size) are now about 7 years old, and show no cracking around the >>>>> spoke holes. >>>>> >>>> what is your spoke tension? >>> Adequate. >>> >> er, so that allows you to correlate rim cracking with anodizing then? >> you /did/ mean that when you were advocating the use of unanodized rims >> after red herring consumption, right? > What does the presence or lack thereof of sockets have to do with anodizing? The socket and anodized MA-40 cracked around the spoke holes anyway.
but ma2's crack around the spoke hole at excess spoke tension too. neither rim cracks if spokes are tensioned correctly.
What values of tension?
it was posted just recently - ~90kgf iirc. mavic "vintage" or "legacy" rims?
Tom Sherman wrote: > "jim beam" wrote: >> Tom Sherman wrote: >>> Ozark Bicycle wrote: >>>> On Oct 9, 8:58 pm, [email hidden] wrote: >>>>> someone writes: >>>>>>> I want to build a pair of 700C wheels to convert a vintage >>>>>>> (1970s) >>>>>>> bike to clincher tires. Was wondering what rims you would >>>>>>> recommend? Need to be silver, 36h, look vintage (not aero nor >>>>>>> deep >>>>>>> V), and good quality. I'm about 180 pounds. >>>>>> can't go wrong with some Sun cr-18s in polished alu. >>>>> http://www.bikemannetwork.com/biking/p/COMPRMRDSUN/RM8491 >>>>> >>>>> No sockets! No good >>>> >>>> Horseshit >>> >>> The two hand built wheels I have with Sun CR-18 rims (ISO 406-mm >>> size) are now about 7 years old, and show no cracking around the >>> spoke holes. >>> >> what is your spoke tension? > > Adequate. >
er, so that allows you to correlate rim cracking with anodizing then? you /did/ mean that when you were advocating the use of unanodized rims after red herring consumption, right?
What does the presence or lack thereof of sockets have to do with anodizing?
when you refer to "polished alu" as if that is something other than an aesthetic benefit, it's you drinking the jobstian kool-aid about rim cracking being caused by anodizing. hence my question about spoke tension.
The Swedish terrestrial otter mentioned polished aluminium alloy, not me.
-- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!
but ma2's crack around the spoke hole at excess spoke tension too. neither rim cracks if spokes are tensioned correctly.
Not in my experience, and I have a large stack of worn out MA-2's from my bicycle and others who descend fast on rough roads. The same riders that had rim failure with MA-40's. These failures were such that rims cracked circumferentially through the brake surface leaving a rim held together by spoke sockets and eyelets. Later MA-40 rims seemed to have thinner (cosmetic) anodizing.
but only a couple of days ago, you told us you don't use a tensiometer, and you've been telling the rest of us for ages to tension spokes "as high as the rim can bear".
given the above, and given that you ignore known facts about properties of anisotropic materials, you're hardly in a position to attribute blame to the rim manufacturer when in fact it is your own misunderstanding that is at issue.
Citation for the degree of anisotropy in extruded aluminium alloy bicycle rims?
-- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!
> but ma2's crack around the spoke hole at excess spoke tension too. > neither rim cracks if spokes are tensioned correctly.
Not in my experience, and I have a large stack of worn out MA-2's from my bicycle and others who descend fast on rough roads. The same riders that had rim failure with MA-40's. These failures were such that rims cracked circumferentially through the brake surface leaving a rim held together by spoke sockets and eyelets. Later MA-40 rims seemed to have thinner (cosmetic) anodizing.
but only a couple of days ago, you told us you don't use a tensiometer, and you've been telling the rest of us for ages to tension spokes "as high as the rim can bear".
given the above, and given that you ignore known facts about properties of anisotropic materials, you're hardly in a position to attribute blame to the rim manufacturer when in fact it is your own misunderstanding that is at issue.
Citation for the degree of anisotropy in extruded aluminium alloy bicycle rims?
only someone unfamiliar with extrusion microstructure would ask a question like that. i suggest you go to one of your testing sources and provide them with some rim section for examination, then let /them/ tell you. post the metallography pics you get please.
[email hidden] wrote: > http://www.jimbeam.com/beam/default.aspx? writes: > >> but ma2's crack around the spoke hole at excess spoke tension too. >> neither rim cracks if spokes are tensioned correctly. > > Not in my experience, and I have a large stack of worn out MA-2's from > my bicycle and others who descend fast on rough roads. The same > riders that had rim failure with MA-40's. These failures were such > that rims cracked circumferentially through the brake surface leaving > a rim held together by spoke sockets and eyelets. Later MA-40 rims > seemed to have thinner (cosmetic) anodizing. >
but only a couple of days ago, you told us you don't use a tensiometer, and you've been telling the rest of us for ages to tension spokes "as high as the rim can bear".
given the above, and given that you ignore known facts about properties of anisotropic materials, you're hardly in a position to attribute blame to the rim manufacturer when in fact it is your own misunderstanding that is at issue.
Citation for the degree of anisotropy in extruded aluminium alloy bicycle rims?
only someone unfamiliar with extrusion microstructure would ask a question like that. i suggest you go to one of your testing sources and provide them with some rim section for examination, then let /them/ tell you. post the metallography pics you get please.
And do your work for you?
-- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!
"jim beam" wrote: > [email hidden] wrote: >> http://www.jimbeam.com/beam/default.aspx? writes: >> >>> but ma2's crack around the spoke hole at excess spoke tension too. >>> neither rim cracks if spokes are tensioned correctly. >> >> Not in my experience, and I have a large stack of worn out MA-2's from >> my bicycle and others who descend fast on rough roads. The same >> riders that had rim failure with MA-40's. These failures were such >> that rims cracked circumferentially through the brake surface leaving >> a rim held together by spoke sockets and eyelets. Later MA-40 rims >> seemed to have thinner (cosmetic) anodizing. >> > > but only a couple of days ago, you told us you don't use a > tensiometer, and you've been telling the rest of us for ages to > tension spokes "as high as the rim can bear". > > given the above, and given that you ignore known facts about > properties of anisotropic materials, you're hardly in a position to > attribute blame to the rim manufacturer when in fact it is your own > misunderstanding that is at issue.
Citation for the degree of anisotropy in extruded aluminium alloy bicycle rims?
only someone unfamiliar with extrusion microstructure would ask a question like that. i suggest you go to one of your testing sources and provide them with some rim section for examination, then let /them/ tell you. post the metallography pics you get please.
And do your work for you?
no, you're doing the work for yourself, for your own education.
fact is, i don't have access to the facilities any more, otherwise i would. you otoh, do. i've seen extruded microstructure like this many times. i've cited examples. if you don't believe, do your own homework.
Tom Sherman wrote: > "jim beam" wrote: >> [email hidden] wrote: >>> http://www.jimbeam.com/beam/default.aspx? writes: >>> >>>> but ma2's crack around the spoke hole at excess spoke tension too. >>>> neither rim cracks if spokes are tensioned correctly. >>> >>> Not in my experience, and I have a large stack of worn out MA-2's >>> from >>> my bicycle and others who descend fast on rough roads. The same >>> riders that had rim failure with MA-40's. These failures were such >>> that rims cracked circumferentially through the brake surface leaving >>> a rim held together by spoke sockets and eyelets. Later MA-40 rims >>> seemed to have thinner (cosmetic) anodizing. >>> >> >> but only a couple of days ago, you told us you don't use a >> tensiometer, and you've been telling the rest of us for ages to >> tension spokes "as high as the rim can bear". >> >> given the above, and given that you ignore known facts about >> properties of anisotropic materials, you're hardly in a position to >> attribute blame to the rim manufacturer when in fact it is your own >> misunderstanding that is at issue. > > Citation for the degree of anisotropy in extruded aluminium alloy > bicycle rims? >
only someone unfamiliar with extrusion microstructure would ask a question like that. i suggest you go to one of your testing sources and provide them with some rim section for examination, then let /them/ tell you. post the metallography pics you get please.
And do your work for you?
no, you're doing the work for yourself, for your own education.
fact is, i don't have access to the facilities any more, otherwise i would. you otoh, do.
News to me!
Structural steel inspection in the field is generally limited to visual observation, torque testing of fasteners, and ultrasonic checks on welds. (Some bridge inspections uses radiographic methods.)
Coupons are taken from structural members at the manufacturing source for testing. I do not have free services from the metallurgical laboratories that perform this testing.
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i've seen extruded microstructure like this many times. i've cited examples. if you don't believe, do your own homework.
For bicycle rims?
-- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!
Michael Press wrote: > In article <[email hidden]>, > Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> wrote: > >> "jim beam" wrote: >>> Tom Sherman wrote: >>>> "jim beam" wrote: >>>>> Tom Sherman wrote: >>>>>> Ozark Bicycle wrote: >>>>>>> On Oct 9, 8:58 pm, [email hidden] wrote: >>>>>>>> someone writes: >>>>>>>>>> I want to build a pair of 700C wheels to convert a vintage (1970s) >>>>>>>>>> bike to clincher tires. Was wondering what rims you would >>>>>>>>>> recommend? Need to be silver, 36h, look vintage (not aero nor deep >>>>>>>>>> V), and good quality. I'm about 180 pounds. >>>>>>>>> can't go wrong with some Sun cr-18s in polished alu. >>>>>>>> http://www.bikemannetwork.com/biking/p/COMPRMRDSUN/RM8491 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> No sockets! No good >>>>>>> Horseshit >>>>>> The two hand built wheels I have with Sun CR-18 rims (ISO 406-mm >>>>>> size) are now about 7 years old, and show no cracking around the >>>>>> spoke holes. >>>>>> >>>>> what is your spoke tension? >>>> Adequate. >>>> >>> er, so that allows you to correlate rim cracking with anodizing then? >>> you /did/ mean that when you were advocating the use of unanodized rims >>> after red herring consumption, right? >> What does the presence or lack thereof of sockets have to do with anodizing? > The socket and anodized MA-40 cracked around the spoke holes anyway. > but ma2's crack around the spoke hole at excess spoke tension too. neither rim cracks if spokes are tensioned correctly.
What values of tension?
it was posted just recently - ~90kgf iirc. mavic "vintage" or "legacy" rims?
