Riding with clipless pedals - first impressions

Try "spinning" instead of focusing on up-down. Clipless allow for
running lower gears and higher cadences compared to street shoes.

My personal visual of my power transfer when not spinning, as I
sometimes end up doing lower cadences on my single speed, is the motion
of scraping mud off a boot, down, back, and up a bit. Think I picked
that up from Bicycling Magazine circa '85 or so. 😄

On Thu, 6 Oct 2005 16:25:34 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] (Dave

Vandervies) said:

I feel like I'm pulling up on the pedals a lot, and the muscles in my
legs that are starting to get sore agree with that. I'm not sure if
it's just that I'm noticing it more because I'm not used to doing it or
if I'm actually replacing pushing down with pulling up.
(The weather 'round here is supposed to get worse in the next day or so,
and then I'm out of town for the weekend, so since I'm a fair-weather
cyclist I'll be getting a break for a while. I'm sure the newly used
muscles in my legs will greatly appreciate that.)

My normal cruising speed is still limited by my comfortable cadence and
how much power output I can sustain, but for accelerating and sprints
I'm noticing that I can get a lot more peak power transfer. Yesterday I
had the car ahead of me gain all of five or six car-lengths on me from
one stoplight to the next (I'd guess around 200 meters), and I was up
to 35km/h when he hit the brakes for the next light. I've done that
up to about 20-25 before, but 35 at the end of an hour-and-a-half ride
is definitely worth noting. The first day I had them I also managed
a 38km/h sprint on a stretch of road where I can normally sprint a bit
under 35 or sustain 30ish.

I'm not sure if I have much of a point here, except perhaps to ask whether
it's normal to be pulling up on the pedals a lot and, if it's a Bad Thing,
whether it's something I can expect to reduce as I get used to having
the ability to do it. Comments and similar input are always welcome,
of course.

If you think about it, the 'down' position where the pedal stroke stops the
downward travel is not actually six o'clock - iow, it's not perpendicular
to the flat. It's more like four o'clock. When I begin the backstroke, I'm
not actually experiencing pulling 'up', it's more like back, scraping back
if you will. If I do it right, imo, there's no movement wrt to the pedal or
the shoe or the cleat - it's more of a pressing back; a 'V-stroke'. ymmv.

If I do it not quite right, then yes I do get some movement of the shoe
versus the cleat, or even my foot vs the shoe. When I do it right, imo,
everything is solid, no moving wrt the pedal.

So I'd suggest more of a deep, narrow 'V-stroke' more of a scraping/pushing
back than a lifting. Only do it some of the time, such as if cadence and
speed starts to decrease on a slight hump in the road, imo. That way you'll
work the action of the hamstrings into the pedalling stroke gradually and
avoid any straining.

HTH,

jj

Ah, the fear of falling over.

Is it the potential embarassment or the fear of getting physically
hurt?

It will happen. Once. Then you won't ever do it again.

Doesn't matter if you have clipless pedals or toe clips. You will fall
over, once. Everyone has done this. Once. Most just won't admit to it.
Remember, the embarrassment. Those that admit to falling over many
times are to be avoided! Don't ride too close to them and don't buy
whatever brand of pedals & cleats they are using.

Try this when no one is looking. Ride on to your front lawn, come to a
stop, fall over. Sheesh, it won't hurt to fall on the grass. Do it
and get over it. Don't wait to do this in traffic or next to some
object that will hurt.

We have 1 guy in our club who didn't practice. Put the clipless on,
went for a ride, came home, couldn't unclip, fell over in his drive way
and landed on the landscaping bricks along his driveway. The bricks
were on end in a sawtooth pattern. Broke his ankle. This is serious
for a 75 year old.

Maintain your pedals! SPDs need regular lubing. A quick spray with
the chain lube every time you do your chain is all it takes.
Speedplays, don't ever walk on gravel or sand in your cleats. Looks,
those plastic cleats need replacing often.

Rick

Dave Vandervies said:

I feel like I'm pulling up on the pedals a lot, and the muscles in my
legs that are starting to get sore agree with that. I'm not sure if
it's just that I'm noticing it more because I'm not used to doing it or
if I'm actually replacing pushing down with pulling up.

I don't think it's a great idea to pull up on the pedals. It doesn't
contribute anything to sustainable effort/speed and it can be hazardous
if you pull out.

Peter Cole said:

Dave Vandervies said:

I feel like I'm pulling up on the pedals a lot, and the muscles in my
legs that are starting to get sore agree with that. I'm not sure if
it's just that I'm noticing it more because I'm not used to doing it or
if I'm actually replacing pushing down with pulling up.

I don't think it's a great idea to pull up on the pedals. It doesn't
contribute anything to sustainable effort/speed and it can be hazardous
if you pull out.

I was always under the impression that the advantage of clipless system
was that you could apply power during every portion of the pedal stroke.
I definitely pull up on my clips/straps when I want to kick it up a
notch while climbing

--
Paul M. Hobson
Georgia Institute of Technology
..:change the words to numbers
if you want to reply to me:.

In article <[email hidden]>,

maxo said:

Try "spinning" instead of focusing on up-down. Clipless allow for
running lower gears and higher cadences compared to street shoes.

I doubt that'd help in my case, since even with street shoes I'm usually
comfortable spinning right up to "little enough resistance on the pedals
that I start bouncing on the seat".

Quoted message said:

My personal visual of my power transfer when not spinning, as I
sometimes end up doing lower cadences on my single speed, is the motion
of scraping mud off a boot, down, back, and up a bit. Think I picked
that up from Bicycling Magazine circa '85 or so. 😄

When I'm not spinning and trying to maximize power transfer (hills,
quick acceleration, and the occasional sprint), I'm finding myself still
ignoring the front/back movement when the pedals are at the top/bottom,
and pulling up the pedal at the back while i'm pushing down normally on
the other one.
Now that I've started getting used to them, I should perhaps work on
doing a single longer pedal stroke rather than two distinct ones.

dave

--
Dave Vandervies [email hidden]
I want to congratulate PR on the phrase "land-based banana controls", which
(a) left me sputtering, (b) offers splendid scope for a John Cleese routine,
and (c) produces zero Google hits. --Chris Redmond in uw.general

In article <[email hidden]>,

jj said:

On Thu, 6 Oct 2005 16:25:34 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] (Dave
Vandervies) wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm not sure if I have much of a point here, except perhaps to ask whether
it's normal to be pulling up on the pedals a lot and, if it's a Bad Thing,
whether it's something I can expect to reduce as I get used to having
the ability to do it. Comments and similar input are always welcome,
of course.

If you think about it, the 'down' position where the pedal stroke stops the
downward travel is not actually six o'clock - iow, it's not perpendicular
to the flat. It's more like four o'clock. When I begin the backstroke, I'm
not actually experiencing pulling 'up', it's more like back, scraping back
if you will. If I do it right, imo, there's no movement wrt to the pedal or
the shoe or the cleat - it's more of a pressing back; a 'V-stroke'. ymmv.

Quoted message said:

If I do it not quite right, then yes I do get some movement of the shoe
versus the cleat, or even my foot vs the shoe. When I do it right, imo,
everything is solid, no moving wrt the pedal.

The movement wrt the pedal was mostly right at the end of the downstroke,
after I'd stopped applying force on it. I suspect that just turned up a
turn-the-foot motion that I'd been almost-doing with flat pedals but was
prevented by the friction between the shoe and the pedal. I'm noticing
it less now than I was at first - I suspect that's more because I've
stopped doing it than because I've gotten used to it, but it's probably
some of each.

As far as pulling up, I was doing it as two distinct motions - push the
frontside pedal down while pulling the backside pedal up, then turn
them without applying power to the wheel to get them in position for
the next stroke. At times it felt like I was applying more power with
the foot that was pulling up than with the one that was pushing down.

Quoted message said:

So I'd suggest more of a deep, narrow 'V-stroke' more of a scraping/pushing
back than a lifting.

I'll have to try that. 'Tmight even be worth getting used to that for
regular riding once I get a bit more comfortable with them, so I can
apply power around the full turn of the pedals if I need it...

Quoted message said:

Only do it some of the time, such as if cadence and
speed starts to decrease on a slight hump in the road, imo. That way you'll
work the action of the hamstrings into the pedalling stroke gradually and
avoid any straining.

This part seems to be coming with getting used to riding with them.
Overdoing it before the muscles have a chance to get in shape and then
backing off because I get used to the motion once the muscles have
already adapted to being used does seem kind of backwards, though.

dave

--
Dave Vandervies [email hidden]
I want to congratulate PR on the phrase "land-based banana controls", which
(a) left me sputtering, (b) offers splendid scope for a John Cleese routine,
and (c) produces zero Google hits. --Chris Redmond in uw.general

In article <[email hidden]>,

Paul Hobson said:

Peter Cole said:

Dave Vandervies said:

I feel like I'm pulling up on the pedals a lot, and the muscles in my
legs that are starting to get sore agree with that. I'm not sure if
it's just that I'm noticing it more because I'm not used to doing it or
if I'm actually replacing pushing down with pulling up.

I don't think it's a great idea to pull up on the pedals. It doesn't
contribute anything to sustainable effort/speed and it can be hazardous
if you pull out.

Sustainable effort/speed, no, that's limited by what kind of power output
you can sustain and not how it's being transferred (any muscles you use
regularly, if they can't already handle the entire sustainable power
output you use them for, will adapt to it pretty quickly).
But for peak output (climbing, quick acceleration, sprinting), you're
already well over your sustainable output, and spreading that extra
power output over multiple muscle groups seems to help.

Quoted message said:

I was always under the impression that the advantage of clipless system
was that you could apply power during every portion of the pedal stroke.
I definitely pull up on my clips/straps when I want to kick it up a
notch while climbing

That's the impression I got, too, though what I was describing in the
quoted bit above was overdoing it a bit (at times I'd feel like I was
pulling up the backside for the power stroke and then coasting down
the frontside, the inverse of the "normal" pedal stroke you'd use with
platform pedals).

I seem to be getting used to mostly sticking with the normal pedal
stroke unless I need/want more power, though I'm still occasionally
finding myself pulling up when I have no need to. It's quite effective
at delivering that "more power", though - I found myself tailgating
the car ahead of me up to 35km/h leaving a stoplight this afternoon,
where I used to be doing well to only fall back one or two carlengths
getting up to 25. I'll have to see how I manage when I'm second in line,
since he did have one or two cars ahead of him to slow down for.

dave

--
Dave Vandervies [email hidden]
I want to congratulate PR on the phrase "land-based banana controls", which
(a) left me sputtering, (b) offers splendid scope for a John Cleese routine,
and (c) produces zero Google hits. --Chris Redmond in uw.general

Dave Vandervies said:

So, two or three weeks after the LBS told me `The best estimate we can
give you is "when our supplier ships them", so please stop harassing us',
my new sandals finally came in earlier this week, and between the great
weather and the "I have to try these out" factor, I've spent a lot of
time riding on them in the last few days.

I haven't fallen yet; I've had a few "move foot... wait, no, first unclip,
THEN move foot" moments, but I apparently don't fall over fast enough
that I can't get my foot out in time to stop it. I've had one or two
"move foot... wait, I unclipped when I did that" as well, but it's not yet
automatic enough that I'm expecting it to still work if I try to stop in
front of an experienced cyclist or attractive member of the opposite sex.

The sandals are actually quite comfortable to walk in, though I wouldn't
want to wear them for the kind of walking I do when I leave the bike
at home. The stiff soles I actually barely noticed until I went back to
the flexible ones in my normal walking sandals and noticed the difference
going that way. (I'd probably notice it more if I were to spend half
an hour walking on them.) What I actually did notice was the extra
thickness under the front of the foot. Occasionally hearing the cleat
grind on things like uneven asphalt and paving stones will also take
some getting used to.

Having my feet move on the floating cleats was a bit disconcerting
at first (there's a lot more friction between flat shoes and platform
pedals than with the cleat moving within its normal range of motion).
I also had some trouble getting used to moving my heel far enough out
to unclip - if I had half as much freedom of movement as I actually do,
I probably wouldn't miss the extra.

I feel like I'm pulling up on the pedals a lot, and the muscles in my
legs that are starting to get sore agree with that. I'm not sure if
it's just that I'm noticing it more because I'm not used to doing it or
if I'm actually replacing pushing down with pulling up.
(The weather 'round here is supposed to get worse in the next day or so,
and then I'm out of town for the weekend, so since I'm a fair-weather
cyclist I'll be getting a break for a while. I'm sure the newly used
muscles in my legs will greatly appreciate that.)

My normal cruising speed is still limited by my comfortable cadence and
how much power output I can sustain, but for accelerating and sprints
I'm noticing that I can get a lot more peak power transfer. Yesterday I
had the car ahead of me gain all of five or six car-lengths on me from
one stoplight to the next (I'd guess around 200 meters), and I was up
to 35km/h when he hit the brakes for the next light. I've done that
up to about 20-25 before, but 35 at the end of an hour-and-a-half ride
is definitely worth noting. The first day I had them I also managed
a 38km/h sprint on a stretch of road where I can normally sprint a bit
under 35 or sustain 30ish.

I'm not sure if I have much of a point here, except perhaps to ask whether
it's normal to be pulling up on the pedals a lot and, if it's a Bad Thing,
whether it's something I can expect to reduce as I get used to having
the ability to do it. Comments and similar input are always welcome,
of course.

dave

--
Dave Vandervies [email hidden]
This seems like a pretty weird thing to do, but the LISP and Scheme
crew is known for being weird, so indulge me for a minute.
--Bear in comp.lang.scheme

Dave Vandervies said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Paul Hobson said:

Peter Cole said:

Dave Vandervies wrote:

>I feel like I'm pulling up on the pedals a lot, and the muscles in my
>legs that are starting to get sore agree with that. I'm not sure if
>it's just that I'm noticing it more because I'm not used to doing it or
>if I'm actually replacing pushing down with pulling up.

I don't think it's a great idea to pull up on the pedals. It doesn't
contribute anything to sustainable effort/speed and it can be hazardous
if you pull out.

Sustainable effort/speed, no, that's limited by what kind of power output
you can sustain and not how it's being transferred (any muscles you use
regularly, if they can't already handle the entire sustainable power
output you use them for, will adapt to it pretty quickly).
But for peak output (climbing, quick acceleration, sprinting), you're
already well over your sustainable output, and spreading that extra
power output over multiple muscle groups seems to help.

Quoted message said:

I was always under the impression that the advantage of clipless system
was that you could apply power during every portion of the pedal stroke.
I definitely pull up on my clips/straps when I want to kick it up a
notch while climbing

That's the impression I got, too, though what I was describing in the
quoted bit above was overdoing it a bit (at times I'd feel like I was
pulling up the backside for the power stroke and then coasting down
the frontside, the inverse of the "normal" pedal stroke you'd use with
platform pedals).

I seem to be getting used to mostly sticking with the normal pedal
stroke unless I need/want more power, though I'm still occasionally
finding myself pulling up when I have no need to. It's quite effective
at delivering that "more power", though - I found myself tailgating
the car ahead of me up to 35km/h leaving a stoplight this afternoon,
where I used to be doing well to only fall back one or two carlengths
getting up to 25. I'll have to see how I manage when I'm second in line,
since he did have one or two cars ahead of him to slow down for.

You have 2 groups of leg muscles: flexors and extensors. The extensors
are much stronger (bit of oversimplification, but grossly true). There
is little to be gained in peak power by enlisting weak flexor muscles.

Maximum power is achieved at high cadences. It is much more difficult to
coordinate flexor/extensor recruitment at those leg speeds, so the
technique falls apart when you could best take advantage of it.

Clipless pedals are a safety, convenience and comfort innovation, not a
performance one. Pulling up on clipless pedals defeats their main
feature -- safety. Since pedals are designed to release with foot
rotation, the rider who is in the habit of pulling up must be able to
prevent this, even in the best-case situation with new, well adjusted
components. Pedal pull out when pulling up hard will usually lead to a
trip over the bars. I have seen this a couple of times. This can be bad
enough when climbing a hill, but could easily be fatal if sprinting in
traffic -- a purpose you seem to think these pedals were designed for.
As I originally said, a dangerous habit with no advantage. I'd add that
it's a disservice to promote this to others who don't know better.

If you're pulling up excessively on the pedals without wanting to, consider
that your saddle may be too high.

"Dave Vandervies" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So, two or three weeks after the LBS told me `The best estimate we can
give you is "when our supplier ships them", so please stop harassing us',
my new sandals finally came in earlier this week, and between the great
weather and the "I have to try these out" factor, I've spent a lot of
time riding on them in the last few days.

I haven't fallen yet; I've had a few "move foot... wait, no, first unclip,
THEN move foot" moments, but I apparently don't fall over fast enough
that I can't get my foot out in time to stop it. I've had one or two
"move foot... wait, I unclipped when I did that" as well, but it's not yet
automatic enough that I'm expecting it to still work if I try to stop in
front of an experienced cyclist or attractive member of the opposite sex.

The sandals are actually quite comfortable to walk in, though I wouldn't
want to wear them for the kind of walking I do when I leave the bike
at home. The stiff soles I actually barely noticed until I went back to
the flexible ones in my normal walking sandals and noticed the difference
going that way. (I'd probably notice it more if I were to spend half
an hour walking on them.) What I actually did notice was the extra
thickness under the front of the foot. Occasionally hearing the cleat
grind on things like uneven asphalt and paving stones will also take
some getting used to.

Having my feet move on the floating cleats was a bit disconcerting
at first (there's a lot more friction between flat shoes and platform
pedals than with the cleat moving within its normal range of motion).
I also had some trouble getting used to moving my heel far enough out
to unclip - if I had half as much freedom of movement as I actually do,
I probably wouldn't miss the extra.

I feel like I'm pulling up on the pedals a lot, and the muscles in my
legs that are starting to get sore agree with that. I'm not sure if
it's just that I'm noticing it more because I'm not used to doing it or
if I'm actually replacing pushing down with pulling up.
(The weather 'round here is supposed to get worse in the next day or so,
and then I'm out of town for the weekend, so since I'm a fair-weather
cyclist I'll be getting a break for a while. I'm sure the newly used
muscles in my legs will greatly appreciate that.)

My normal cruising speed is still limited by my comfortable cadence and
how much power output I can sustain, but for accelerating and sprints
I'm noticing that I can get a lot more peak power transfer. Yesterday I
had the car ahead of me gain all of five or six car-lengths on me from
one stoplight to the next (I'd guess around 200 meters), and I was up
to 35km/h when he hit the brakes for the next light. I've done that
up to about 20-25 before, but 35 at the end of an hour-and-a-half ride
is definitely worth noting. The first day I had them I also managed
a 38km/h sprint on a stretch of road where I can normally sprint a bit
under 35 or sustain 30ish.

I'm not sure if I have much of a point here, except perhaps to ask whether
it's normal to be pulling up on the pedals a lot and, if it's a Bad Thing,
whether it's something I can expect to reduce as I get used to having
the ability to do it. Comments and similar input are always welcome,
of course.

dave

--
Dave Vandervies [email hidden]
This seems like a pretty weird thing to do, but the LISP and Scheme
crew is known for being weird, so indulge me for a minute.
--Bear in comp.lang.scheme

"Peter Cole" (clip) Maximum power is achieved at high cadences. It is much
more difficult to coordinate flexor/extensor recruitment at those leg
speeds, (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I am not a highly developed rider--high cadences do not feel good to me,
even though I know it would improve my power. But, even at the cadence I
ride, I find that when I concentrate on pulling up, I decrease how much I
push down, or forget to do it altogether. I do find, however, that being
clipped in increases the power arc of the pushing foot considerably.

Dave Vandervies said:

the other one.
Now that I've started getting used to them, I should perhaps work on
doing a single longer pedal stroke rather than two distinct ones.

good plan! Whatever ya do, concentrate on smoothness and try to keep
them hips from rockin'

have fun!

Chris Neary said:

Quoted message said:

I don't think it's a great idea to pull up on the pedals. It doesn't
contribute anything to sustainable effort/speed and it can be hazardous
if you pull out.

What it does do is remove/reduce the dead weight on the pedal during the
upstroke, maximizing the net power input of the opposing downstroke.

Sure, but this is only useful to increase peak short power bursts, as in
sprinting, it does nothing for sustained power.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Chris Neary said:

Dave: I was amazed to see such an extensive narrative which lacked even a
mention of what brand and model of pedals you were using.

Shimano PD-M324. (Flat on one side, SPD on the other.)

I'd assumed that the technical details were irrelevant to the things like
"how do I get used to the differences in riding once I'm clipped in"
that I spent most of the post on.

dave

--
Dave Vandervies [email hidden]
Well, we started with a mailserver named after the author of "Institutes
of the Christian Religion" and a nameserver named after the author of
"Leviathan". --Anthony de Boer in the scary devil monastery

In article <[email hidden]>,

Peter Cole said:

Chris Neary said:

Quoted message said:

I don't think it's a great idea to pull up on the pedals. It doesn't
contribute anything to sustainable effort/speed and it can be hazardous
if you pull out.

What it does do is remove/reduce the dead weight on the pedal during the
upstroke, maximizing the net power input of the opposing downstroke.

Sure, but this is only useful to increase peak short power bursts, as in
sprinting, it does nothing for sustained power.

I seem to recall that when I first mentioned it I was talking about peak
power, not sustained power.

Sustained power is limited by what the rest of your body can give the
muscles to work with, not by how much work the muscles themselves can do,
so for sustained power you're better off using only the muscles that can
work most effectively; for burst power, you want to enlist any muscles
that can possibly help, because if they're just sitting there doing
nothing they're wasted.

dave

--
Dave Vandervies [email hidden]
Well, we started with a mailserver named after the author of "Institutes
of the Christian Religion" and a nameserver named after the author of
"Leviathan". --Anthony de Boer in the scary devil monastery

Quoted message said:

How much of a gain am I achieving by doing this 'pulling up'? I don't think
it's much. When I really -need- the power, say standing to climb, I don't
have any of this contribution. In fact when I'm climbing seated, I'm
thinking more of 'mashing' than anything else (unless it's just a hump in
the road).

Look at the pro's when they stand. They're not "mashing", they're "dancing
on the pedals". Probably a reason for that. ;-)

Quoted message said:

It seems hardly worth the concentration to do this. IOW, the energy to lift
2 more pounds over a rotating mass is so small as to be almost negligible,
I'd think.

Using your numbers, that's a 3% net power improvement. Many serious riders
would *kill* for 3%.

Quoted message said:

I do know that even without thinking about 'pulling up' my hamstrings have
had enormous development from cycling. Whereas before, even with weight
training my hamstrings were developed, -now- they are huge handfuls of
muscle and are noticeable to those riding behind me, even when I'm wearing
tights. (and no, it's not fat, lol!)

So I really wonder about this 'conscious' pulling up deal, that's all. ;-)

Much of the coaching on efficient pedaling doesn't so much talk about
"pulling up" as "pulling back" through the bottom of the pedal stroke. The
goal is simple, to produce more even power throughout the stroke, using the
leg muscles more efficiently. That's what I "feel": force on the pedal
during the top and bottom of the stroke. I also feel a lack of force during
the upstroke, which is a good thing.

Before I got my fixed gear, I was coached to do drills on my "regular" bike
by placing it into an easy gear (say 39 X 21) and then doing a few seated
sprints during a ride.

Where I noticed the effect isn't so much that I am stronger, but I am able
to vary my cadence over a wider range without significant power reductions.
Instead of having to shift to close a gap, a momentary increase in cadence
will often do the trick.

Chris Neary
[email hidden]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What it does do is remove/reduce the dead weight on the pedal during the
upstroke, maximizing the net power input of the opposing downstroke.

Sure, but this is only useful to increase peak short power bursts, as in
sprinting, it does nothing for sustained power.

Care to post a little data to go with that opinion?

Chris Neary
[email hidden]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 15:13:36 -0700, Chris Neary <[email hidden] >

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How much of a gain am I achieving by doing this 'pulling up'? I don't think
it's much. When I really -need- the power, say standing to climb, I don't
have any of this contribution. In fact when I'm climbing seated, I'm
thinking more of 'mashing' than anything else (unless it's just a hump in
the road).

Look at the pro's when they stand. They're not "mashing", they're "dancing
on the pedals". Probably a reason for that. ;-)

Well-l-l, they're tiny little things, those 140lb Pros, so ok, dancing. ;-)

So what, in your opinion, distinguishes the 'dancing' from mashing - are
you saying the're still able to spin 'round circles' or something while
standing? Seems to me that would be difficult. After all when you've got
your whole body over the pedals wouldn't it be hard to do a complex motion
like when you're seated? Seems that pretty much everyone is doing a
stairmaster type movement - climbing stairs is climbing stairs; iow, I'm
trying to imagine training some kind of complex movement...dunno.

I have to admit that what I see Lance doing is different - he's even got
some 'ankle movment' going on (I won't say the 'a' word <g>😉. Pretty cool.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It seems hardly worth the concentration to do this. IOW, the energy to lift
2 more pounds over a rotating mass is so small as to be almost negligible,
I'd think.

Using your numbers, that's a 3% net power improvement. Many serious riders
would *kill* for 3%.

Are you sure that a difference in the amount of 'weight' that your leg is
pushing transfers to 'power'. When I step on a bathroom scale and press
until it hits '60', it seems to take very little additional force to make
it say '80'. Would simply twenty pounds of of less 'push' needed on each
downstroke be 3% 'power' increase? Seems like it would a lot less...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I do know that even without thinking about 'pulling up' my hamstrings have
had enormous development from cycling. Whereas before, even with weight
training my hamstrings were developed, -now- they are huge handfuls of
muscle and are noticeable to those riding behind me, even when I'm wearing
tights. (and no, it's not fat, lol!)

So I really wonder about this 'conscious' pulling up deal, that's all. ;-)

Much of the coaching on efficient pedaling doesn't so much talk about
"pulling up" as "pulling back" through the bottom of the pedal stroke. The
goal is simple, to produce more even power throughout the stroke, using the
leg muscles more efficiently. That's what I "feel": force on the pedal
during the top and bottom of the stroke. I also feel a lack of force during
the upstroke, which is a good thing.

OK. Well, I'm already a believer. I know that it helps me to use a 'V'
stroke, which is probably pretty close to your 'pulling back'. Just trying
to get a feel for whether it's worth it to train this more rigorously. Like
I said even just pedalling 'normally', I seem to be using a whole lot of
hamstring action. Just don't want to go too far trying to introduce an
'artificial' motion into my pedalling if it's not needed. IOW if my
hamstrings seemed to be 'underdeveloped', then yeah, that's the first thing
I'd think, they're failing to share the load. (thinking aloud, here...)

Quoted message said:

Before I got my fixed gear, I was coached to do drills on my "regular" bike
by placing it into an easy gear (say 39 X 21) and then doing a few seated
sprints during a ride.

Where I noticed the effect isn't so much that I am stronger, but I am able
to vary my cadence over a wider range without significant power reductions.
Instead of having to shift to close a gap, a momentary increase in cadence
will often do the trick.

OK, me too. Thanks for the detailed reply.

jj

Quoted message said:

Chris Neary