Riding wheel with broken spokes, rebuilding same

Michael Rasmussen said:

Last weekend I was out on a 200K ride which ended when two spokes broke
in the rear wheel. This was a new experience for me. The wheel is a
machine built wheel that I picked up to use as a spare. It has less
than 1000 miles on it.

I've never built my own wheels. Two weeks earlier I had replaced a
broken spoke on the same wheel and had my first experience with wheel
truing. It's really possible I compounded whatever problems the wheel
had at this time.

Questions:

I felt that continuing to ride would result in more broken spokes and
possible rim damage. Is that perception true? There was about 15 miles
to go.

Perhaps. If two spokes broke, there's probably more that are going to
go. The remaining spokes have experienced similar load cycles to the
ones that broke, which probably led to fatigue and failure. They might
even have broken on the remainder of your ride.

Quoted message said:

This seems to be an excellent time to start in on learning to build
wheels. Should I replace all the spokes in this wheel or just the broken
ones?

After about 1000 miles, I'd spend $10-20 and replace them all. At least
replace all the ones on the side where two have already broken
(non-drive side, right?).

Besides, old spokes are useful to pick mud and dog excrement out of
sneakers, boots, and MTB shoe lugs.

Quoted message said:

My intent is to loosen all the spokes and treat the build process as if
I had just completed lacing the wheel up. Is there any problems with
that idea?

IME, that's the best way to proceed. An experienced wheel builder might
be able to replace a few spokes and then true and tension the wheel.
But as a newbie, it's easier to build up tension gradually.

Quoted message said:

Yes, I have Jobst's book and Sheldon's page at hand.

Read, study, and good luck!

Pat

Michael Rasmussen said:

Last weekend I was out on a 200K ride which ended when two spokes broke
in the rear wheel. This was a new experience for me. The wheel is a
machine built wheel that I picked up to use as a spare. It has less
than 1000 miles on it.

I've never built my own wheels. Two weeks earlier I had replaced a
broken spoke on the same wheel and had my first experience with wheel
truing. It's really possible I compounded whatever problems the wheel
had at this time.

Questions:

I felt that continuing to ride would result in more broken spokes and
possible rim damage. Is that perception true? There was about 15 miles
to go.

possible, but more likely it's ok.

Quoted message said:

This seems to be an excellent time to start in on learning to build
wheels. Should I replace all the spokes in this wheel or just the broken
ones?

probably all.

Quoted message said:

My intent is to loosen all the spokes and treat the build process as if
I had just completed lacing the wheel up. Is there any problems with
that idea?

means threading spokes through each other - much more complicated than
starting over, especially is you're replacing them all.

Quoted message said:

Yes, I have Jobst's book and Sheldon's page at hand.

check the spoke head for the brand you have now. [that's the usual
place manufacturers identify their product.] chances are, they're cheap
no-name. if you rebuild, make sure you only use a good brand. all
spokes are not created equal. also, try not to bend the spoke elbow on
building - it needs to retain an angle of about 95 degrees, the angle it
settles to when built.

"Michael Rasmussen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Last weekend I was out on a 200K ride which ended when two spokes broke

in the

Quoted message said:

rear wheel. This was a new experience for me. The wheel is a machine

built

Quoted message said:

wheel that I picked up to use as a spare. It has less than 1000 miles on

it.

Quoted message said:

I've never built my own wheels. Two weeks earlier I had replaced a

broken spoke

Quoted message said:

on the same wheel and had my first experience with wheel truing. It's

really

Quoted message said:

possible I compounded whatever problems the wheel had at this time.

Questions:

I felt that continuing to ride would result in more broken spokes and

possible

Quoted message said:

rim damage. Is that perception true? There was about 15 miles to go.

This seems to be an excellent time to start in on learning to build

wheels.

Quoted message said:

Should I replace all the spokes in this wheel or just the broken ones?

My intent is to loosen all the spokes and treat the build process as if I

had

Quoted message said:

just completed lacing the wheel up. Is there any problems with that

idea?

Quoted message said:

Yes, I have Jobst's book and Sheldon's page at hand.

It's possible you got a bad batch of spokes, that's not very many miles to
be breaking so many. If it were my wheel, I'd replace just the broken ones
(cheap, lazy). Are they breaking at the elbows? Are they all breaking in
the same spot? Bad spoke line?

I've had very good luck with several set of machine-made wheels, even low
cost ones. When I get such wheels I always stress relieve and bring up the
tension on them, per Jobst's book. I have put many thousands of miles on
wheels like this with my 235 lb body weight, and broken spokes almost never
happen (maybe 1 every 2-3 years @ 5K miles/yr).

Quoted message said:

The wheel is a machine built
wheel that I picked up to use as a spare. It has less than 1000 miles

on it.

Hmm, breaking spokes at less than 1000 miles is not good. I assume it's
a rear wheel and drive side spokes. What kind of rim and what kind of
spokes (and how many)? Did the spokes seem overly loose or tight?
Machine built wheels are usually under tensioned.

Quoted message said:

I felt that continuing to ride would result in more broken spokes and

possible

Quoted message said:

rim damage. Is that perception true? There was about 15 miles to go.

With two broken spokes, you're lucky you were able to ride the wheel.
It's usually possible to adjust the remaining spokes to get the wheel
true enough to ride home. If the tension was high, and the rim was way
out of true, the rim may have taken a set. If the rim is no longer
round and planar, it may not be possible to get even spoke tension when
the wheel is trued.

Quoted message said:

My intent is to loosen all the spokes and treat the build process as

if I had

Quoted message said:

just completed lacing the wheel up. Is there any problems with that

idea?

Sounds like you had some combination of poor build quality and cheap
spokes. If the rim is of decent quality, I'd replace all the spokes
with DT brand. Replace them one at a time so it will be easier to
maintain the same spoke/hub orientation. Follow the steps in The Book
for oiling, spoke line correcting, tensioning, and truing. Then stress
relieve.

Art Harris

You usually DO NOT need to replace all the spokes.

You haven't read all of Jobst's book if you're asking the question.

You need 2 things.

1. a tight wheel. The tighter the stronger, unless too tight in which case
it'll warp.
2. To stress relieve the spokes. This is very important to prevent
breakages.
I've read ALL of Jobst's book in my time and do only one thing different to
him.
How I stress relieve. Maybe my hands aren't strong enough but I still broke
some when doing as he advocates.

I now stress relieve with something metal, or by putting the weight of my
hell on each spoke.
I almost never break them now and I weigh 200 and tour with up to 32lb
weight.

Michael Rasmussen said:

My intent is to loosen all the spokes and treat the build process as if I had
just completed lacing the wheel up. Is there any problems with that idea?

Great idea.

Michael Rasmussen said:

Last weekend I was out on a 200K ride which ended when two spokes broke in the
rear wheel. This was a new experience for me. The wheel is a machine built
wheel that I picked up to use as a spare. It has less than 1000 miles on it.

I've never built my own wheels. Two weeks earlier I had replaced a broken spoke
on the same wheel and had my first experience with wheel truing. It's really
possible I compounded whatever problems the wheel had at this time.

Questions:

I felt that continuing to ride would result in more broken spokes and possible
rim damage. Is that perception true? There was about 15 miles to go.

This seems to be an excellent time to start in on learning to build wheels.
Should I replace all the spokes in this wheel or just the broken ones?

My intent is to loosen all the spokes and treat the build process as if I had
just completed lacing the wheel up. Is there any problems with that idea?

Yes, I have Jobst's book and Sheldon's page at hand.

If they are good quality hubs and rims, I would just start with all new spokes and nipples. It is much easier and faster to lace a wheel in the 4 segments as shown in the book and Sheldon's pages than to replace one spoke at a time. You will be able to see the marks on the hub to know how the wheel was previously laced.
DT, Sapim, and Wheelsmith are good quality. Sapim doesn't put their logo or lettering on the head, but they imprint it on the "outside" of the spoke shaft past the elbow.
You can't make up for the fatigue that has already happened in the remaining spokes.
Tension balance and spoke alignment are important to make the wheel have it's longest life.

Michael Rasmussen said:

Last weekend I was out on a 200K ride which ended when two spokes broke
in the rear wheel. This was a new experience for me. The wheel is a
machine built wheel that I picked up to use as a spare. It has less
than 1000 miles on it.

-snip-

Quoted message said:

This seems to be an excellent time to start in on learning to build
wheels. Should I replace all the spokes in this wheel or just the broken
ones?
My intent is to loosen all the spokes and treat the build process as if
I had just completed lacing the wheel up

-snip-

Yes, drop the tension, lube the threads and nipple faces and
do it over properly. There aren't 'bad spokes' generally
but there are plenty of sloppy builds.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Art Harris said:

With two broken spokes, you're lucky you were able to ride the wheel.

I once finished a late night lap in a 24 hour race with SIX broken
drive side spokes. The course was very rocky, and somewhere along the
line I had shifted the chain into the spokes, and scored them badly,
after which point they started failing rapid fire.

Granted, I did have to stop and release the rear brake altogether
(making for some memorable downhills), and it didn't feel like it had
another 100 yards in it when I finished the lap... but it got me
there.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Art Harris said:

With two broken spokes, you're lucky you were able to ride the wheel.
It's usually possible to adjust the remaining spokes to get the wheel
true enough to ride home. If the tension was high, and the rim was way
out of true, the rim may have taken a set.

Well, the tension probably was not high. Whether or not the rim would
"take a set" -- become permanently deformed from a broken spoke, is
doubtful. The only rims I have seen become deformed were victims of some
sort of impact.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My intent is to loosen all the spokes and treat the build process as

if I had

Quoted message said:

just completed lacing the wheel up. Is there any problems with that

idea?

Sounds like you had some combination of poor build quality and cheap
spokes. If the rim is of decent quality, I'd replace all the spokes with
DT brand.

Well, if the spokes were that cheap, it's likely the rim was as well. I
hesitate to just re-use these spokes, since with 3 broken ones in
less than 1000 miles something serious was wrong. Probably a
terrible build. I'd worry about damage having occurred to the
remaining spokes. But I'd have to look at the broken ones, and the
remaining ones, to be more certain.

Did they break at the head, or the nipple? Head breaks tend to be
fatigue, which at this mileage is a bad sign. Nipple might be due to a
truly incompetent build.

Quoted message said:

Replace them one at a time so it will be easier to

maintain

Quoted message said:

the same spoke/hub orientation.

That's silly. Replacing spokes one at a time requires each one to be
seriously bent to get it in. A real pain in the ass. Look carefully at
the wheel, mark which way spokes go from a few spoke holes, and
rebuild the whole thing (unless you decide to go with the spokes you
have).

--

David L. Johnson

__o | And what if you track down these men and kill them, what if you
_`\(,_ | killed all of us? From every corner of Europe, hundreds,
(_)/ (_) | thousands would rise up to take our places. Even Nazis can't
kill that fast. -- Paul Henreid (Casablanca).

Michael Rasmussen said:

Last weekend I was out on a 200K ride which ended when two spokes broke
in the rear wheel.

Thanks to all who have resonded so far.

To answer the questions put to me:

All breakage on the non-drive side at the head. The elbows are still on the
unidentified mfg. spokes. The rim is a Sun CR18 36 hole, the hub a Shimano BS
(86?) Parrallax.

Do the spokes seem too loose or tight? I can't really tell. It's the
inexperienced thing. Taking an allen wrench to the remaining spokes there is a
range of tones when struck. A few are consistant at a higher pitch, the others
are varying states of lower. So there are spokes with considerably less
tension. I don't have the ear to tell how much lower.

The wheel was originally purchased when the one I ordered for my bike was set to
arrive too late for a brevet last July. It's purpose, after filling the gap
until the real wheel arrived, was to be my spare/winter commuting/learn stuff on
wheel.

--
Michael Rasmussen, Portland Oregon
Be appropriate && Follow your curiosity
http://meme.patch.com/memes/BicycleRiding
Get Fixed: http://www.dampfixie.org
The fortune cookie says:
The trouble with some women is that they get all excited about nothing
-- and then marry him.
-- Cher

Michael Rasmussen said:

Michael Rasmussen said:

Last weekend I was out on a 200K ride which ended when two spokes
broke in the rear wheel.

Thanks to all who have resonded so far.

To answer the questions put to me:

All breakage on the non-drive side at the head. The elbows are still
on the unidentified mfg. spokes. The rim is a Sun CR18 36 hole, the hub
a Shimano BS (86?) Parrallax.

none of those components are noted for excellence. you can spend $20 on
good quality spokes, but those hub bearings won't last too long so the
benefit of the spoke investment is marginal. unless you want to
undertake the rebuilding project for the fun of it, i would consider
simply replacing with a better wheel.

Quoted message said:

Do the spokes seem too loose or tight? I can't really tell. It's the
inexperienced thing. Taking an allen wrench to the remaining spokes
there is a range of tones when struck. A few are consistant at a higher
pitch, the others are varying states of lower. So there are spokes with
considerably less tension. I don't have the ear to tell how much lower.

you can try sheldon's musical tuning method, or you can buy a park tools
tensiometer for about $50. when building a rear, make sure the right
side is tensioned to the rim manufacturers spec and check the left side
only for consistency.

Quoted message said:

The wheel was originally purchased when the one I ordered for my bike
was set to arrive too late for a brevet last July. It's purpose, after
filling the gap until the real wheel arrived, was to be my spare/winter
commuting/learn stuff on wheel.

--
Michael Rasmussen, Portland Oregon
Be appropriate && Follow your curiosity
http://meme.patch.com/memes/BicycleRiding
Get Fixed: http://www.dampfixie.org
The fortune cookie says:
The trouble with some women is that they get all excited about nothing
-- and then marry him.
-- Cher

Michael Rasmussen wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Questions:

I felt that continuing to ride would result in more broken spokes and possible
rim damage. Is that perception true? There was about 15 miles to go.

Somewhat. Sometimes you got what you got to do. That's why I like 36 spoke
wheels. Even with a broken spoke the wheel is rideable.

Quoted message said:

This seems to be an excellent time to start in on learning to build wheels.

Yes, yes it is...

Quoted message said:

Should I replace all the spokes in this wheel or just the broken ones?

Depends on how many times you want to do the job. My personal policy, two
broken spokes; replace them all...

Quoted message said:

My intent is to loosen all the spokes and treat the build process as if I had
just completed lacing the wheel up. Is there any problems with that idea?

That will work; but, you'll likely end up replacing all the spokes
eventually.

Quoted message said:

Yes, I have Jobst's book and Sheldon's page at hand.

Take your time and you'll do fine.

--
Tp,

-------- __o
----- -\<. -------- __o
--- ( )/ ( ) ---- -\<.
-------------------- ( )/ ( )
-----------------------------------------

No Lawsuit Ever Fixed A Moron...

Michael Rasmussen said:

Michael Rasmussen said:

Last weekend I was out on a 200K ride which ended when two spokes broke
in the rear wheel.

Thanks to all who have resonded so far.

To answer the questions put to me:

All breakage on the non-drive side at the head.

That's fatigue from the spokes becoming completely de-tensioned when they
reach the bottom on every revolution. This leads me to think that all
those spokes are probably fatigued, so should be replaced.

Quoted message said:

unidentified mfg. spokes. The rim is a Sun CR18 36 hole, the hub a
Shimano BS (86?) Parrallax.

That's a good rim, and an adequate hub. Worth re-building.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "What am I on? I'm on my bike, six hours a day, busting my ass.
_`\(,_ | What are you on?" --Lance Armstrong
(_)/ (_) |

David L. Johnson said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Last weekend I was out on a 200K ride which ended when two spokes
broke in the rear wheel.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

All breakage on the non-drive side at the head.

Quoted message said:

That's fatigue from the spokes becoming completely de-tensioned when
they reach the bottom on every revolution. This leads me to think
that all those spokes are probably fatigued, so should be replaced.

Becoming slack does not cause fatigue failures but rather cyclic stress
near the yield stress. Loose spokes that were never tight, can cause
repeated flexing at the elbow, which causes high stress. As I see it,
the identity of the spokes is unknown. I'm not sure they are stainless
or not.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Unidentified mfg. spokes. The rim is a Sun CR18 36 hole, the hub a
Shimano BS (86?) Parrallax.

Quoted message said:

That's a good rim, and an adequate hub. Worth re-building.

I'm not familiar with that hub but I don't see throwing out all the
spokes if they are stainless. Ones that may be cracked should fail on
stress relieving.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

All breakage on the non-drive side at the head. The elbows are still
on the unidentified mfg. spokes. The rim is a Sun CR18 36 hole, the

hub

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a Shimano BS (86?) Parrallax.

none of those components are noted for excellence. you can spend $20 on
good quality spokes, but those hub bearings won't last too long so the
benefit of the spoke investment is marginal. unless you want to
undertake the rebuilding project for the fun of it, i would consider
simply replacing with a better wheel.

I've had very good luck with both the CR-18 (in both road & MTB versions)
and the Parallax hubs. Both of those components are considered reliable,
economical, workhorses.

count number of out of line spokes
go to bend center
tighten center spoke
tighten next
tighten spoke other side of center
count stupid!
out to rim bend's end
then loosen same way--IF!! that side is tight. One assumes, yawl broke
a drive side
and the non-drive side is loose and needs tightening by screwing
ther other side
over into line
this method by any other name
tends to reduce the rim going into a sine wave pattern
with resultant seizures by rider as the sun goes down.

as yawl know i will now go out and do this.
having had the indescribabble joy of having one let go right in front
of me as i poked the lockcable thru the CR. thought it was charlie
whitman!

this is a non-software generated post.

that was a non-software non-cerebral generated post
got it backwards.loosen the non-drive sides..

now back from the bike stand.no sign of whitman-went to iraq?
second broken spoke. no luck this time. sine wave right off. first
spoke was tighten the bend and run all weak till fixit time came.
so>>
loosened and tightened each sine wave after getting the broken spoke
bend more or less right
then as the corrections went into the wheel-system
the wheel chose its own median run past the brake pads
and i chose the max percentage thereon as the point to true towards.
off to the stand. but off running true.
i have two broken on the drive side over a year/5000 hd touring miles
i figure its time to buy another 20 pack.

-snip-

Quoted message said:

Michael Rasmussen said:

All breakage on the non-drive side at the head. The elbows are still
on the unidentified mfg. spokes. The rim is a Sun CR18 36 hole, the
hub a Shimano BS (86?) Parrallax.

jim beam said:

none of those components are noted for excellence. you can spend $20 on
good quality spokes, but those hub bearings won't last too long so the
benefit of the spoke investment is marginal. unless you want to
undertake the rebuilding project for the fun of it, i would consider
simply replacing with a better wheel.

-snip-

My experience is that 'cheap' hubs are generally dependable
smooth and perfectly useful for a good long while _if_ they
get proper initial setup - clean, plenty of lube, grade 25
bearings, slight preload. Shimano 'standard grade' hubs
are no worse and better than the average 'replacement wheel'
hubs (Sovos, Quando, KK, etc). (I'm referring to basic
aluminum shell models, not stamped steel hubs).

Since he owns the wheel, bearing prep and proper tensioning
shouldn't require more than an hour. I'd go for it.

But taking your comment the other way, yes I think in the
future the OP would do well to pay a bit more for better
equipment - there's better value in 'mid-price' than in 'cheap'.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971