Riding position ( technical)

In article <[email hidden]>, Per Elmsäter <[email hidden]> wrote:
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Does for instance Easton make a seatpost with the the same ability to finetune the saddle but set
further back than Thompson? I have an Easton Riser Bar.

Thompson make a set back seatpost. It's exactly the same except it has a bend in the tube - I just
bought one for my Blur

--
Uncle Keith

"Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Hi This is rather technical, but in such a way that I feel mountain bikers as such will be able to
answer this better than the technical engineers in rec.bicycles.tech I'm fairly new to XC riding
and just recently got myself a FS bike, a

Klein

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Adept Pro. I've been working on getting it fitted in such a way that I

feel

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balanced on technical portions of the trail and I need some advice on what to think about. I'm
really a roadie in disguise and this tends to lean me over forward too much etc.

My bike first came with a really long stem ( 135 mm ) and a Thomson Elite seatpost. It felt OK (
on asphalt )except that my center of gravity was

very

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far forward ( going down a steep hill). I noticed that the Thomson post

had

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the saddle fastened much further forward than I was used to on for

instance

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my Icon seatpost. I also noticed that my knee was not in aligned in KOPS ( Knee Over Pedal
Spindle) , but rather well in front of the spindle. I am

not

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a believer in KOPS, just using it as a reference point so I can explain. OK so I put in a 90 mm
stem and pushed my saddle as far back as possible. This helped going downhill as my handlebars
were slightly further back. I could almost get into KOPS now. On all my other bikes I have my
knees well behind KOPS and I have the feeling that on a XC bike I want my knee even further back
than that. Maybe 2-3 cm and a lower saddle than I am used to.

I

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won't be doing any downhill except what I run into on the trails.

So what I really want to check with you all in this ng is whether I am thinking along the right
tracks, shorter stem and the saddle set further back rather than weight forward. I also feel that
a slightly more upright position will help my balance when going slow through technical terrain. I
do have the option to exchange my seatpost and stem at my LBS until I'm

all

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setup. It feels I should not use the Thomson seatpost although I've gotten to like how fine it
will adjust the tilt of the saddle. Does for instance Easton make a seatpost with the the same
ability to finetune the saddle

but

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set further back than Thompson? I have an Easton Riser Bar.

If you going to come over to the darkside, you got to totally unlearn everything you learned as a
roadie. It doesn't apply!!!!!!

Your first setup for you Klein sounds like a typical XC racer setup. It's design to go like a bat
out of hell on flat XC trails and climb like a F-15 on afterburners. Don't however expect to fly
downhills and get some air time. The XC racer setup is the most balanced postion. That's why
downhills are uncomfortable because all your weight shifts to the front and make you feel like
you're going to endo when going downhill.

Everything is a tradeoff. The farther you move back on the bike, the easier to descend and get air
time at the expense of flatland speed and climbing.

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I also feel that a slightly more upright position will help my balance when going slow through
technical terrain.

I dissagree with your assessment here. While you can get away with riding upright on dry
conditions, you need to weight the front for wet conditions. Keeping the front weighted also helps
for high speed direction changes. See Gracia in picture linked. He's got the front weighted in an
attack position:

gallery.consumerreview.com802C6953.aspOpen ↗

A XC setup pretty balances for general XC riding so you don't move around much. It also limits
you for more technical riding. An upright postion requires more weight shifting to keep the
bike balanced.

Forget the KOP unless you strictly ride flat easy trails where you don't get out of the saddle.

My current setup is a frame one sizer smaller than my XC bike. I've got 2 inch riser bars with a
50mm stem. I shift my weight all over the bike depending if I'm going up, down, turning or getting
some air. I've got a quick release on the my seatpost and use 3 basic settings. Setting 1 is your
basic KOP position for extended climbing or easy trails. Setting 2 is about an inch down from
postion 1 for heavy duty trail riding. My center of gravity is lower and I can move around the bike
easier. Setting 3 is all the way down for big air and straight down descents.

Learn how to shift you weight on the bike. You'd be surprised how much faster you can go and how
much easier technical sections are. If you currently don't know how to bunny hop with flats pedals,
learn!!!!! The key elements of doing bunny hops with flats is bike control and weight shifting.
People seem to that the purpose of flats is to bail faster. I disagree. Flats pedals teaches
advanced bike control since you have move around the bike to keep from flying off. You can always
switch back to clipless after you learn flat pedal skills.

jack scrawled in bright red lipstick:

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Forget the KOP unless you strictly ride flat easy trails where you don't get out of the saddle.

Learn how to shift you weight on the bike. You'd be surprised how much faster you can go and how
much easier technical sections are. If you currently don't know how to bunny hop with flats
pedals, learn!!!!! The key elements of doing bunny hops with flats is bike control and weight
shifting. People seem to that the purpose of flats is to bail faster. I disagree. Flats pedals
teaches advanced bike control since you have move around the bike to keep from flying off. You can
always switch back to clipless after you learn flat pedal skills.

while I completely disagree with ignoring KOP, you are right on the money about learning to be a
dynamic ride, using the body with the bike.

FWIW, you do not want to go more 'recreational" in set up. That's some that you will out grow and
regret doing in a hurry, unless you have back pain issues or other problems that necessitate an
upright position.

Or your are riding rail trails

Penny s

Penny S said:

you are right on the money about learning to be a dynamic ride

I love it when women say stuff like that. :-)

--
-BB- To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail address, at least)

Keith Walter said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Per Elmsäter <[email hidden]>
wrote: --------8<---- snip

Quoted message said:

Does for instance Easton make a seatpost with the the same ability to finetune the saddle but set
further back than Thompson? I have an Easton Riser Bar.

Thompson make a set back seatpost. It's exactly the same except it has a bend in the tube - I just
bought one for my Blur

Thanks for the tip. That might be just what I need. I really do like the way I can finetune the
Thomsson seatpost.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

RE/

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Thompson make a set back seatpost. It's exactly the same except it has a bend in the tube

And if you need to go further back, somebody makes one model-named "HellBent" that gives a full two
inches of setback.
--
PeteCresswell

"Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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jack wrote:

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Hmmm. yes but within reasonable limits. Like right now I felt so far

forward

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on the bike I didn't have good balance at all. Besides, when climbing

seated

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I like to slide back on the saddle and really push on those pedals. Of course the steeper it gets
the more I have to lean forward until I'm kinda out of the saddle anyway.

When I climb, I so far forward the front of my saddle is literally stuck up my ass!!!!! Keeps the
front down, more controlled steering and easier to spin smoothly so I don't lose rear traction.

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I also feel that a slightly more upright position will help my balance when going slow through
technical terrain.

I dissagree with your assessment here. While you can get away with riding upright on dry
conditions, you need to weight the front for wet conditions. Keeping the front weighted also
helps for high speed direction changes. See Gracia in picture linked. He's got the front
weighted in an attack position:

gallery.consumerreview.com802C6953.aspOpen ↗

Nice pic. But he is weighting the front of the bike by just leaning down

and

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over. This is clearly seen by how his elbows are bent. He'd be lots more upright in a relaxed
position with only a small bend in the elbows?

That's exactly what I mean. In a XC setup you are more stretched out and the weight is more
centered. You don't have to shift your weight forward. Gracia is only doing a short dual slalom race
so he can maintain this position. He can't maintain this position on a long XC race. Your arms are
going to get blown trying to maintain that sharp elbow bend. You need XC setup for that.

My point is that in a general upright position you can ride like that if conditions are dry and
you're flying along at warp speed. If conditions are slippery, you need to purposely weight the
front like Gracia. The same applies to dry conditions at high speed. If you are sitting upright and
try to make a high speed turn, you'll plow right off the trail. Weighting the front will correctly
initate the turn.

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A XC setup pretty balances for general XC riding so you don't move around much. It also limits
you for more technical riding. An upright postion requires more weight shifting to keep the bike
balanced.

Hmm.... Very interesting.

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Forget the KOP unless you strictly ride flat easy trails where you don't get out of the saddle.

Well it's when I'm in the saddle that KOPS is measurable, right ;-)

My road bike setup has me behind KOPS.

My triathlon setup has me in front of KOPS.

My mountain bike setup is pretty much by feel. I usually drop the saddle all the way down and full
around seeing how it feels to lift the front of the bike, the back of the bike and general balance
overall. I bring the saddle up to the maximum height that I would normally pedal at. I adjust the
saddle as far back as I can till I cannot drop my ass behind it, then move it back to the point I
can drop my ass. I've never bothered to measure KOPS from there. If I remember to, I'll do it. After
that I pretty only full around with my 3 saddle height depending on trail conditons.

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My current setup is a frame one sizer smaller than my XC bike. I've got 2 inch riser bars with a
50mm stem. I shift my weight all over the bike depending if I'm going up, down, turning or
getting some air. I've got a quick release on the my seatpost and use 3 basic settings. Setting
1 is your basic KOP position for extended climbing or easy trails. Setting 2 is about an inch
down from postion 1 for heavy duty trail riding. My center of gravity is lower and I can move
around the bike easier. Setting 3 is all the way down for big air and straight down descents.

Sounds like I need a QR

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Learn how to shift you weight on the bike. You'd be surprised how much faster you can go and how
much easier technical sections are. If you currently don't know how to bunny hop with flats
pedals, learn!!!!! The key elements of doing bunny hops with flats is bike control and weight
shifting. People seem to that the purpose of flats is to bail faster. I disagree. Flats pedals
teaches advanced bike control since you have move around the bike to keep from flying off. You
can always switch back to clipless after you learn flat pedal skills.

Good point there. I do try to *think* of my feet as being on flat pedals when bunnyhopping. Just
due to the simple fact that I don't wan't to pull

my

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clips out of the pedal. Imagine that. I can see myself doing a handstand

on

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the bars instead ;-( Ouch....

I think you missed my point about flat pedals. If you watch bmx riders, they can get aweome height
using just flat pedals. The key to all this height is bike control with weight shifts. See link
below and watch the videos.

bmxbasics.orgbmx0703.htmlOpen ↗

jack said:

Lots of interesting information.

Thanks Jack. I think I'm starting to follow you now. Need to get out on a trail and try these things
out before I get to confused.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

"Penny S" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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while I completely disagree with ignoring KOP>

And how much experience do you have fitting bikes, Penny?

When the owner of my favorite LBS, who's a former Olympic cycling coach with over 30 years of bike
fitting experience, helped me come up with dimensions for a custom frame recently, he was quite
willing to deviate from KOPS to get me better balanced and comfortable on the bike. The results I'm
getting with Curtlo frame shows that his experienced eye was much more on the money than an
arbitrary rule. Keith Bontrager also seems not to care to much for KOPS either.

"(Pete Cresswell)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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RE/

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Thompson make a set back seatpost. It's exactly the same except it has a bend in the tube

And if you need to go further back, somebody makes one model-named

"HellBent"

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that gives a full two inches of setback.
--
PeteCresswell

If you need to go that far back, you probably need to do other things to get your center of mass
balanced properly between the front and rear wheel.

KLydesdale spray painted on a boxcar:

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"Penny S" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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while I completely disagree with ignoring KOP>

And how much experience do you have fitting bikes, Penny?

When the owner of my favorite LBS, who's a former Olympic cycling coach with over 30 years of bike
fitting experience, helped me come up with dimensions for a custom frame recently, he was quite
willing to deviate from KOPS to get me better balanced and comfortable on the bike. The results
I'm getting with Curtlo frame shows that his experienced eye was much more on the money than an
arbitrary rule. Keith Bontrager also seems not to care to much for KOPS either.

I said, "my opinion" Which is based on what works for me and my knees, on my bike, with my
bike fitter.

My knees are super sensitive to alignment issues.

What's the problem with my opinion... I never professed to be an expert.

penny

RE/

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If you need to go that far back, you probably need to do other things to get your center of mass
balanced properly between the front and rear wheel.

Hopefully the Curtlo I'm getting will remedy that...

But on my FS, the primary issue is getting the saddle under my butt. Spend months looking for a more
comfortable saddle before realizing that the problem was that I was sitting in the rivets....
--
PeteCresswell