Riding Backwards on the Course

"Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You wouldn't believe how many racers who should know better that we as
officials, have to talk to, chase down, and yell at that just don't get
it. Unfortunately it usually seems, to me, to be experienced higer Cat
racers too.
Granted this wasn't at a race, but very well could've been.

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/8705.0.html
Let's keep it safe folks, the things with four or more wheels are
enough of a threat.
Bill C

In this case it's just a freak accident. These were public roads. Nobody
was riding backwards during a race.

Blessings to all involved.

yeah, but the problem is that people /officials only get bent out of
shape on that kind of thing at little US races, you can ride backwards
anywhere else on the course (so long as you keep to one side), and
unless you are racing wether you wear a helmet or not is totally your
own choice. Granted the riding backwards thing I can see why officials
get a little [censored] at times, but the helmet thing I don't get. Who
are you to say when I do and don't wear a helmet so long as I am not
racing... who are you (as a bike race official) to say if I wear a
seatbelt in my car of not, who are you to say if I use a condom or
not... OK, I think you get the idea... I've gone off topic enough, so
I'm gonna bugger off now...

On 17 Aug 2005 00:22:09 -0700, "DepartFictif" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Who
are you to say when I do and don't wear a helmet so long as I am not
racing... who are you (as a bike race official) to say if I wear a
seatbelt in my car of not, who are you to say if I use a condom or
not... OK, I think you get the idea... I've gone off topic enough, so
I'm gonna bugger off now...

The vast majority of the officials don't care, other than its a rule
that the USCF makes a point of bringing up to be enforced at least
every other year. Its public relations - in the U.S. there are locals
that couldn't recognize dangerous riding if it happened in front of
their nose, but they can see a rider without a helmet and complain.

Riding with a helmet doesn't strike me as a great hardship. Making a
permit harder to get or even losing a good course is. Some racers seem
to get this (if not on their own, usually right after they do the
promotion part of racing), some keep right on pissing in front of
security cameras and sitting on corners with their bikes on the
roadway (and why not? They've finished THEIR race). And riding the
wrong way on a course with their helmets hanging off their saddle. And
complaining when all the bike races end up in industrial parks.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Curtis L. Russell said:

On 17 Aug 2005 00:22:09 -0700, "DepartFictif" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Who
are you to say when I do and don't wear a helmet so long as I am not
racing... who are you (as a bike race official) to say if I wear a
seatbelt in my car of not, who are you to say if I use a condom or
not... OK, I think you get the idea... I've gone off topic enough, so
I'm gonna bugger off now...

The vast majority of the officials don't care, other than its a rule
that the USCF makes a point of bringing up to be enforced at least
every other year. Its public relations - in the U.S. there are locals
that couldn't recognize dangerous riding if it happened in front of
their nose, but they can see a rider without a helmet and complain.

Riding with a helmet doesn't strike me as a great hardship. Making a
permit harder to get or even losing a good course is. Some racers seem
to get this (if not on their own, usually right after they do the
promotion part of racing), some keep right on pissing in front of
security cameras and sitting on corners with their bikes on the
roadway (and why not? They've finished THEIR race). And riding the
wrong way on a course with their helmets hanging off their saddle. And
complaining when all the bike races end up in industrial parks.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Why does it sound like you've had more than your share of this stuff
too? :-) I'm the last person to give a [censored] if your wearing your helmet
outside of a race. Hell I don't even always wear mine on the motorcycle
when I have a legal choice, but, as you pointed out, USCF decides to
really push this rule occasionally so we have to really stay on top of
it. I'm willing to bet that a lot of it has to do with the insurance
too.
As for rider stupidity, we had a group a couple of years ago decide to
take a [censored] stop on the front lawn of a church about 10:00am Sunday
morning, during a race when they were only about a half mile from the
woods. Wanna guess how well that went over? Luckily the race survived
it, barely.
Bill C

Curtis L. Russell said:

Riding with a helmet doesn't strike me as a great hardship.

I've got no problem riding with a helmet before the race. Riding with
it afterwards is another story -- I'll put on a dry top and go for a
cooldown and that nasty wet helmet is gross. I sometimes bring a dry
helmet to a race, or at a minimum a small towel to dry the helmet out.
But even with a toweling, that's nasty.

JT

****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

I've got no problem riding with a helmet before the race. Riding with
it afterwards is another story -- I'll put on a dry top and go for a
cooldown and that nasty wet helmet is gross. I sometimes bring a dry
helmet to a race, or at a minimum a small towel to dry the helmet out.
But even with a toweling, that's nasty.

Well, OK. Not exactly a hardship, but I look at it like speeding. When
I used to drive fast, it was where I believed in my judgement it was
safe, but if I did get pulled over, I didn't complain to or about the
cop pulling me over. I was a grownup, making my own decisions and he
was doing what he was paid to do.

I've told a fair share of riders to put on their helmets and most
simply figure that if they ride without, they will get told on
occasion. It was no big thing with me or them, and it didn't carry
over to the next argument. Only once did it get really heated and that
was IMO because a certain pretty good East coast master (OK, make that
a really good), first name Pat, who used to argue with the officials
just to work them a bit. Worked on the newbies...

Curious if anyone has ever been really penalized for pushing it too
far. Seen Jim Patton really get on someone's case once or twice, but
it took a few occasions to get to that point, and it didn't get past
the threat even then.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Curtis L. Russell said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

I've got no problem riding with a helmet before the race. Riding with
it afterwards is another story -- I'll put on a dry top and go for a
cooldown and that nasty wet helmet is gross. I sometimes bring a dry
helmet to a race, or at a minimum a small towel to dry the helmet out.
But even with a toweling, that's nasty.

Well, OK. Not exactly a hardship, but I look at it like speeding. When
I used to drive fast, it was where I believed in my judgement it was
safe, but if I did get pulled over, I didn't complain to or about the
cop pulling me over. I was a grownup, making my own decisions and he
was doing what he was paid to do.

I've told a fair share of riders to put on their helmets and most
simply figure that if they ride without, they will get told on
occasion. It was no big thing with me or them, and it didn't carry
over to the next argument. Only once did it get really heated and that
was IMO because a certain pretty good East coast master (OK, make that
a really good), first name Pat, who used to argue with the officials
just to work them a bit. Worked on the newbies...

Curious if anyone has ever been really penalized for pushing it too
far. Seen Jim Patton really get on someone's case once or twice, but
it took a few occasions to get to that point, and it didn't get past
the threat even then.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Yeah, we've been forced to do fines, and threaten to keep some people
from starting the next stage, but this was after repeated warnings and
flagrant defiance. You know, the put it on, go 50' and take it back
off, and do this repeatedly including when warming up on the course.
Bill C

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

yeah, but the problem is that people /officials only get bent out of
shape on that kind of thing at little US races, you can ride backwards
anywhere else on the course (so long as you keep to one side), and
unless you are racing wether you wear a helmet or not is totally your
own choice. Granted the riding backwards thing I can see why officials
get a little [censored] at times, but the helmet thing I don't get. Who
are you to say when I do and don't wear a helmet so long as I am not
racing... who are you (as a bike race official) to say if I wear a
seatbelt in my car of not, who are you to say if I use a condom or
not... OK, I think you get the idea... I've gone off topic enough, so
I'm gonna bugger off now...

do you like having insurance when you race? If you do, then you should listen
to the insurance company. During a race, even if you are not racing at the
time, the insurnace company is providing coverage, so they want you to wear the
helmet. Officials are not going to tell you to wear a helmet when you are not
at a race.
--------------
Alex

Yes - Helemt wearing is required by the insurance company. From
Check-In until all awards have finished and the race is over. Somebody
wrecks after a
race on the course it still goes on the insurance of the permit even
though your not racing. A few of those and then no more insurance and
no more racing.

Bill C said:

Curtis L. Russell said:

On 17 Aug 2005 00:22:09 -0700, "DepartFictif" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Who
are you to say when I do and don't wear a helmet so long as I am not
racing... who are you (as a bike race official) to say if I wear a
seatbelt in my car of not, who are you to say if I use a condom or
not... OK, I think you get the idea... I've gone off topic enough, so
I'm gonna bugger off now...

The vast majority of the officials don't care, other than its a rule
that the USCF makes a point of bringing up to be enforced at least
every other year. Its public relations - in the U.S. there are locals
that couldn't recognize dangerous riding if it happened in front of
their nose, but they can see a rider without a helmet and complain.

Riding with a helmet doesn't strike me as a great hardship. Making a
permit harder to get or even losing a good course is. Some racers seem
to get this (if not on their own, usually right after they do the
promotion part of racing), some keep right on pissing in front of
security cameras and sitting on corners with their bikes on the
roadway (and why not? They've finished THEIR race). And riding the
wrong way on a course with their helmets hanging off their saddle. And
complaining when all the bike races end up in industrial parks.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Why does it sound like you've had more than your share of this stuff
too? :-) I'm the last person to give a [censored] if your wearing your helmet
outside of a race. Hell I don't even always wear mine on the motorcycle
when I have a legal choice, but, as you pointed out, USCF decides to
really push this rule occasionally so we have to really stay on top of
it. I'm willing to bet that a lot of it has to do with the insurance
too.
As for rider stupidity, we had a group a couple of years ago decide to
take a [censored] stop on the front lawn of a church about 10:00am Sunday
morning, during a race when they were only about a half mile from the
woods. Wanna guess how well that went over? Luckily the race survived
it, barely.

dumbasses curt and bill know what they're talking about.

you hate to have to be the big bad baby-sitter and have to tell forty
and fifty year old guys what to do but when there's an incident there's
going to be scrutiny on how everyone has done their job.

(here there is no rule about having to wear a helmet off the race
course, if that's the case in the US, that's pretty odd. i don't see
how officials can be required to responsible for riders not on the race
course).

as shocking as it may sound, some people who get hurt because of their
own idiocy will try to blame whoever else they can.

when you do have someone trying to make a claim against you, you will
be glad that officials or organizers did their jobs instead of trying
to be buddies with the riders.

-Amit

On 17 Aug 2005 09:46:17 -0700, "CoBikeRacer" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Yes - Helemt wearing is required by the insurance company. From
Check-In until all awards have finished and the race is over. Somebody
wrecks after a
race on the course it still goes on the insurance of the permit even
though your not racing. A few of those and then no more insurance and
no more racing.

I've been involved in more than a few incidents. First of all, event
insurance is almost never invoked. Its back-up, not primary. And the
few times that I've been asked to do a follow-up by the USCF, no
mention or question was made of whether or not the person was wearing
a helmet. Unless they've changed the incident reports in the last
couple of years, it wasn't there either. Unless its at the finish
line, by the time the official gets there, there are bikes, people
and, maybe, helmets everywhere. Who's to know?

Insurance isn't completely a red herring. There is probably easy
overkill to say helmets everywhere because its easy (relatively) to
enforce, so they do it and so tell the insurance company. Reality is
that not enough haybales poses more real risk on a typical small event
than any and all helmet wear or non-wear before and after the event.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

In article <[email hidden]>, Curtis L.

Russell said:

On 17 Aug 2005 09:46:17 -0700, "CoBikeRacer" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Yes - Helemt wearing is required by the insurance company. From
Check-In until all awards have finished and the race is over. Somebody
wrecks after a
race on the course it still goes on the insurance of the permit even
though your not racing. A few of those and then no more insurance and
no more racing.

I've been involved in more than a few incidents. First of all, event
insurance is almost never invoked. Its back-up, not primary. And the
few times that I've been asked to do a follow-up by the USCF, no
mention or question was made of whether or not the person was wearing
a helmet. Unless they've changed the incident reports in the last
couple of years, it wasn't there either. Unless its at the finish
line, by the time the official gets there, there are bikes, people
and, maybe, helmets everywhere. Who's to know?

The current version of the First Report of Occurrence form does ask the
question "was the injured person wearing a helmet at the time of this
accident". This is the same form that has been used for at least the
past 3 years.

Quoted message said:

Insurance isn't completely a red herring. There is probably easy
overkill to say helmets everywhere because its easy (relatively) to
enforce, so they do it and so tell the insurance company. Reality is
that not enough haybales poses more real risk on a typical small event
than any and all helmet wear or non-wear before and after the event.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Casey Kerrigan said:

The current version of the First Report of Occurrence form does ask the
question "was the injured person wearing a helmet at the time of this
accident". This is the same form that has been used for at least the
past 3 years.

OK. Its been a while and maybe longer than I want to remember. In any
event, its doesn't change the probability that you don't really know
if it isn't in the race and it isn't at the start/finish. And most of
the Occurence reports were done soon, but not at the scene and not
while they were cleaning up the bikes and pieces. I could guess one
way or the other, but one of the first things the down rider does if
conscious is unsnap the helmet strap. One of the first things
onlookers seem to do is remove the helmet. Not sure what the EMTs
think of that, but it is what I saw (can't say see, but I'm almost
stupid enough to start officiating again next year).

Of course, way back when I raced, the hairnets were kind of nice to
keep on when you were lying on concrete or tarmac - gave padding.
Peaceful, lying there, waiting for the pain to start, looking up at
the blue sky, wondering if you were about to be run over. Don't think
my current Specialized would be quite as comfortable...

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Not terribly related, but these kinds of accidents are precisely why I
refuse to ride on "Bike trails". As as one already said...it doesn't
even matter what direction either rider was going: Both should have
been keeping to their right. In my opinion, the surviving rider is
probably 50% at fault.

Bill C said:

You wouldn't believe how many racers who should know better that we as
officials, have to talk to, chase down, and yell at that just don't get
it. Unfortunately it usually seems, to me, to be experienced higer Cat
racers too.
Granted this wasn't at a race, but very well could've been.

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/8705.0.html
Let's keep it safe folks, the things with four or more wheels are
enough of a threat.
Bill C

Every rider should have to show proof of medical insurance before
racing, and then we should scrap the USCF "[censored]" insurance that the
rest of us are forced to subsidize through our entry fees.

I would not mind using the organization's size to offer "real" medical
insurance coverage to those interested, but we should scrap what we
have now.

Curtis L. Russell said:

I've told a fair share of riders to put on their helmets and most
simply figure that if they ride without, they will get told on
occasion. It was no big thing with me or them, and it didn't carry
over to the next argument. Only once did it get really heated and that
was IMO because a certain pretty good East coast master (OK, make that
a really good), first name Pat, who used to argue with the officials
just to work them a bit. Worked on the newbies...

I wish the officials woudl just fine or DQ the riders (whatever the
rulebook says) and get it over with. I hate being in the parking lot
on a windtrainer and hearing lectures.

JT

****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

Didn't USCF/uASScycling offer group insurance a couple of years ago?
Medical insurance is mainly there so promoters can get Liability
Insurance. Easier to file medical claims then have riders have to sue
for liability...
$5K Deductable if it is used a primary insurance. Ouch... If you
race, buy medical insurance!

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

I wish the officials woudl just fine or DQ the riders (whatever the
rulebook says) and get it over with. I hate being in the parking lot
on a windtrainer and hearing lectures.

Buy cheaper wind trainers. Problem solved. Unless you read lips.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Quoted message said:

Bill C said:

Curtis L. Russell wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And riding the
wrong way on a course with their helmets hanging off their saddle. And
complaining when all the bike races end up in industrial parks.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As for rider stupidity, we had a group a couple of years ago decide to
take a [censored] stop on the front lawn of a church about 10:00am Sunday
morning, during a race when they were only about a half mile from the
woods. Wanna guess how well that went over? Luckily the race survived
it, barely.

dumbasses curt and bill know what they're talking about.

you hate to have to be the big bad baby-sitter and have to tell forty
and fifty year old guys what to do but when there's an incident there's
going to be scrutiny on how everyone has done their job.

At first I didn't understand why race announcements were so
insistent about no riding backwards on the course. Then
I actually did some races and worked a few, and realized
(Duh!!!) that it is a huge potential problem when you have a
one lane closure for a centerline-rule road race. The guy
riding on the opposite side of the road is legal under
normal circumstances, but it's not normal circumstances.
You don't want cars pulling over the centerline to pass him,
putting them head-on in the path of oncoming racers. Not to
mention the general need to keep from pissing off the local
drivers any more than you already are.

Anyway, most of the people breaking this type of rule are
probably just selfish, but some of them may be ignorant
dumbasses like me.