Rider responsibility on trails?

Collin said:

So, for you experienced road cyclists out there, what do you consider
proper riding? Is the cyclist responsible for what's behind as much as
what's in front?

You should hold your line while riding. If you're going to pull out
of line or make a turn, do a left shoulder check first and indicate
your turns with a hand signal. Someone may be overtaking you, or (on
roads) there may be a car approaching from behind.

I've had a few scary moments on century rides when passing slow,
inexperienced groups of riders who weaved suddenly instead of
holding their lines. Now I'm always very cautious when passing a
rider I don't know.

But yes, the overtaking rider is responsible to avoid collisions. It
can be hard when the rider in front does dumb things, though, like
braking hard and swerving.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

Collin said:

So, for you experienced road cyclists out there, what do you consider
proper riding? Is the cyclist responsible for what's behind as much as
what's in front?

You should hold your line while riding. If you're going to pull out
of line or make a turn, do a left shoulder check first and indicate
your turns with a hand signal. Someone may be overtaking you, or (on
roads) there may be a car approaching from behind.

I've had a few scary moments on century rides when passing slow,
inexperienced groups of riders who weaved suddenly instead of
holding their lines. Now I'm always very cautious when passing a
rider I don't know.

But yes, the overtaking rider is responsible to avoid collisions. It
can be hard when the rider in front does dumb things, though, like
braking hard and swerving.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

1. Overtaking vehicle is responsible, it's up to him to inform you of his
intent to pass ("on your left, please", etc.).
2. Had he been using a light, you may have seen the beam of his light and
known he was going to pass you.
3. If he had time to say "Oh [censored], I can't believe you did that" before he
hit you, he had time to hit the brakes hard before he made contact, or
maneuver around you, or both. Doesn't sound like he did.
4. Always, always check behind you before turning left on a bike path, or a
street, or before moving into the left turn lane on a street. #1 still
applies, but there's no sense getting hit if you can avoid it.

IMHO, you might have been able to avoid the incident, but it was still
mostly the other guy's stupidity that caused it. Whatever mistakes you made
certainly don't seem to warrant the reaction you describe.

There's a certain type of fairly athletic cyclist around my home that seem
to regard shared use paths as their own personal training facility. This is
yet another reason why I find myself cycling on the roads more and more,
even though we've got a really wonderful network of shared use paths where I
live.
Just my $.02 worth,
--
mark

From the way I just read this, a couple of thoughts come to mind.

It was entirely his fault and he probably knew it. Which is why he had the 'tude.

With a few exceptional cicumstances, and this doesn't read to be one, be it vehicle, vessel or pedestrian, the overtaking must yield right-of-way. The overtaken has right-of-way.

If he had time to say all that, he had time to get on the brakes and execute evasive maneuvers.

Glad nobody got hurt.🙂

"Collin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Okay, this one's been gnawing at me. Friday night I was hit by a
bicyclist while riding my bike on a bike/pedestrian trail. It was night,
there were street lamps, traffic was light, I had a front light and rear
reflectors, and noone had passe dme for about three miles. Riding
about 13 mph, looked to my left and saw a turnoff I should have taken.
With no oncoming traffic, I braked and swung to the left...

From behind, the guy who hit me had enough time to say "Oh [censored] I can't
believe you did that" before he hit me. I never detected him until I
heard "Oh sh..." I must weigh much more than him because he actually
bounced backward, and I just fell down. My front wheel was far out of
true, and his was tacoed.

Initially I felt really bad and thought I'd offer to get him a new
wheel. But the guy was REALLY MAD. He was trying to control his anger.
I was trying to offer help while being ready for a punch. He asked a
couple of accusatory questions about my bicycling and riding behavior.
Obviously he wasn't going to calm down so I picked up my bike and walked
away.

Then I thought about it for a moment. Isn't it your responsibility to
read the road in front of you? If we were cars, he would have been
guilty. No doubts at all. What about a bike path? He had no lights,
so we was visually limited and probably had a delayed reaction time. I
have to admit I did a stupid thing, because I know from experience other
people are like him - not paying attention to the road in front of them.
And he put all of his thought into "Oh [censored] I can't believe you did
that" instead of steering out of it.

So, for you experienced road cyclists out there, what do you consider
proper riding? Is the cyclist responsible for what's behind as much as
what's in front?

i agree that it's his fault for not warning of a pass AND not having lights!
but i really like having a good bar-end mirror-i can usually spot things
with no lights like cagers who forgot to turn them on.
-alan

Quoted message said:

Okay, this one's been gnawing at me.

Thank goodness for another muddled case.

The following vehicle was at fault. The only possible defense he
would have is that you were not using an active tail light (if one
is required in your jurisdiction).

However "I can't believe you did that," argues that he was aware
that you were there.

If not required, was the following cyclist using a headlight, if
required.

Did you execute a signal (not a big point, but if I were the defense
I would raise it).

Generally speaking, IMHO, following too closely gets the big yawn,
because the duty of the person behind you is to exercise due care
and diligence in operation of a vehicle.

As I understand traffic law.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________
------------------"Buddy Holly, the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>[email hidden]__________

Collin said:

Okay, this one's been gnawing at me. Friday night I was hit by a
bicyclist while riding my bike on a bike/pedestrian trail. It was night,
there were street lamps, traffic was light, I had a front light and rear
reflectors, and noone had passe dme for about three miles. Riding
about 13 mph, looked to my left and saw a turnoff I should have taken.
With no oncoming traffic, I braked and swung to the left...

What I don't understand is how the hell you were still in his way after his
reaction time, and "Oh hell ...".

That implies to me a good 3-4 seconds, in which time he should have been able to
gently steer right and pass you without incident.

How wide was the trail?

Collin wrote:

<< Okay, this one's been gnawing at me. Friday night I was hit by a
bicyclist while riding my bike on a bike/pedestrian trail. It was night,
there were street lamps, traffic was light, I had a front light and rear
reflectors, and noone had passe dme for about three miles. Riding
about 13 mph, looked to my left and saw a turnoff I should have taken.
With no oncoming traffic, I braked and swung to the left...

From behind, the guy who hit me had enough time to say "Oh [censored] I can't
believe you did that" before he hit me. I never detected him until I
heard "Oh sh..." I must weigh much more than him because he actually
bounced backward, and I just fell down. My front wheel was far out of
true, and his was tacoed.

Initially I felt really bad and thought I'd offer to get him a new
wheel. But the guy was REALLY MAD. He was trying to control his anger.
I was trying to offer help while being ready for a punch. He asked a
couple of accusatory questions about my bicycling and riding behavior.
Obviously he wasn't going to calm down so I picked up my bike and walked
away.

Then I thought about it for a moment. Isn't it your responsibility to
read the road in front of you? If we were cars, he would have been
guilty. No doubts at all. What about a bike path? He had no lights,
so we was visually limited and probably had a delayed reaction time. I
have to admit I did a stupid thing, because I know from experience other
people are like him - not paying attention to the road in front of them.
And he put all of his thought into "Oh [censored] I can't believe you did
that" instead of steering out of it.

So, for you experienced road cyclists out there, what do you consider
proper riding? Is the cyclist responsible for what's behind as much as
what's in front?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Both riders share responsibility, but the trailing
rider is more to blame because (1) no lights--if he
had a good headlight you would have detected him
and this wouldn't have happened; (2) it sounds like he
was passing you on the left just as you turned, and
he made no effort to announce his presence; either
that or (3) he was following you dangerously close
without being prepared for any eventuality.

You share some blame because you should have
made a thorough check before turning, and
obviously you didn't.

Any cyclist worth his/her salt would accept
personal blame for a collision like that, learn
from it, and be thankful they weren't hurt.

The other guy's anger was way outa line.

Robert

Collin wrote:

<< Okay, this one's been gnawing at me. Friday night I was hit by a
bicyclist while riding my bike on a bike/pedestrian trail. It was night,
there were street lamps, traffic was light, I had a front light and rear
reflectors, and noone had passe dme for about three miles. Riding
about 13 mph, looked to my left and saw a turnoff I should have taken.
With no oncoming traffic, I braked and swung to the left...

From behind, the guy who hit me had enough time to say "Oh [censored] I can't
believe you did that" before he hit me. I never detected him until I
heard "Oh sh..." I must weigh much more than him because he actually
bounced backward, and I just fell down. My front wheel was far out of
true, and his was tacoed.

Initially I felt really bad and thought I'd offer to get him a new
wheel. But the guy was REALLY MAD. He was trying to control his anger.
I was trying to offer help while being ready for a punch. He asked a
couple of accusatory questions about my bicycling and riding behavior.
Obviously he wasn't going to calm down so I picked up my bike and walked
away.

Then I thought about it for a moment. Isn't it your responsibility to
read the road in front of you? If we were cars, he would have been
guilty. No doubts at all. What about a bike path? He had no lights,
so we was visually limited and probably had a delayed reaction time. I
have to admit I did a stupid thing, because I know from experience other
people are like him - not paying attention to the road in front of them.
And he put all of his thought into "Oh [censored] I can't believe you did
that" instead of steering out of it.

So, for you experienced road cyclists out there, what do you consider
proper riding? Is the cyclist responsible for what's behind as much as
what's in front?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Both riders share responsibility, but the trailing
rider is more to blame because (1) no lights--if he
had a good headlight you would have detected him
and this wouldn't have happened; (2) it sounds like he
was passing you on the left just as you turned, and
he made no effort to announce his presence; either
that or (3) he was following you dangerously close
without being prepared for any eventuality.

You share some blame because you should have
made a thorough check before turning, and
obviously you didn't.

Any cyclist worth his/her salt would accept
personal blame for a collision like that, learn
from it, and be thankful they weren't hurt.

The other guy's anger was way outa line.

Robert

Collin said:

about 13 mph, looked to my left and saw a turnoff I should have taken.
With no oncoming traffic, I braked and swung to the left...

Quoted message said:

Then I thought about it for a moment. Isn't it your responsibility to
read the road in front of you? If we were cars, he would have been
guilty. No doubts at all. What about a bike path? He had no lights,

Maybe I missed something, but are you saying that if you were driving a
car on the roadway, it would be perfectly okay to stop and turn without
any warning, and without looking back?

I'm not playing the blame game -- just pointing out that I don't
understand your argument. What was the other cyclist supposed to
"read", anyway?

--
Frederic Briere <*> [email hidden]

=> <[email hidden]> IS NO MORE: <http://www.abacomsucks.com> <=

Frederic Briere said:

Collin said:

about 13 mph, looked to my left and saw a turnoff I should have taken.
With no oncoming traffic, I braked and swung to the left...

Quoted message said:

Then I thought about it for a moment. Isn't it your responsibility to
read the road in front of you? If we were cars, he would have been
guilty. No doubts at all. What about a bike path? He had no lights,

Maybe I missed something, but are you saying that if you were driving a
car on the roadway, it would be perfectly okay to stop and turn without
any warning, and without looking back?

It would have been different in a car, which is why I was interested in
getting everyone's opinion. 1) Brake lights on cars give the following
driver a warning. Bikes don't. 2) At least California and Illinois
vehicle code place the responsibility on the following driver unless the
leading driver intentionally causes and accident. 3) Yes, if I was
driving, I would have looked back. This is definitely something I should
have done. I was careless.

Quoted message said:

I'm not playing the blame game -- just pointing out that I don't
understand your argument. What was the other cyclist supposed to
"read", anyway?

Good question. If I saw someone in front of me brake I would have
considered a change in direction. But maybe not. And, if I had no
lights, I might not detect the braking. After seeing enough erratic
behavior of people on trails, I've learned to give myself enough
distance to react to most possibilities. That's why I'm always
impressed by bicyclists who run red lights with cross-traffic. They
leave themselves no margin. The same applies to driving. I think most
people leave themselves a margin for error when they're driving.

Eric S. Sande said:

Quoted message said:

Okay, this one's been gnawing at me.

Thank goodness for another muddled case.

The following vehicle was at fault. The only possible defense he
would have is that you were not using an active tail light (if one
is required in your jurisdiction).

Only a headlight is required, but I agree that tail lights work really well.

Quoted message said:

However "I can't believe you did that," argues that he was aware
that you were there.

If not required, was the following cyclist using a headlight, if
required.

He didn't have a headlight.

Quoted message said:

Did you execute a signal (not a big point, but if I were the defense
I would raise it).

Nope. Definitely my bad. I should switch my brakes so my front brake
lever is on my right, and I'd be more inclined to signal while
controlling the bike.

Quoted message said:

Generally speaking, IMHO, following too closely gets the big yawn,
because the duty of the person behind you is to exercise due care
and diligence in operation of a vehicle.

As I understand traffic law.

Yes, legally, but this mishap I think teaches me I need to be more aware
even when no one appears to be around.

Quoted message said:

Eric S. Sande said:

Quoted message said:

Okay, this one's been gnawing at me.

Thank goodness for another muddled case.

The following vehicle was at fault. The only possible defense he
would have is that you were not using an active tail light (if one
is required in your jurisdiction).

Only a headlight is required, but I agree that tail lights work really well.

Quoted message said:

However "I can't believe you did that," argues that he was aware
that you were there.

If not required, was the following cyclist using a headlight, if
required.

He didn't have a headlight.

Quoted message said:

Did you execute a signal (not a big point, but if I were the defense
I would raise it).

Nope. Definitely my bad. I should switch my brakes so my front brake
lever is on my right, and I'd be more inclined to signal while
controlling the bike.

Quoted message said:

Generally speaking, IMHO, following too closely gets the big yawn,
because the duty of the person behind you is to exercise due care
and diligence in operation of a vehicle.

As I understand traffic law.

Yes, legally, but this mishap I think teaches me I need to be more aware
even when no one appears to be around.

Quoted message said:

Muttley said:

Collin said:

Okay, this one's been gnawing at me. Friday night I was hit by a
bicyclist while riding my bike on a bike/pedestrian trail. It was night,
there were street lamps, traffic was light, I had a front light and rear
reflectors, and noone had passe dme for about three miles. Riding
about 13 mph, looked to my left and saw a turnoff I should have taken.
With no oncoming traffic, I braked and swung to the left...

What I don't understand is how the hell you were still in his way after his
reaction time, and "Oh hell ...".

That implies to me a good 3-4 seconds, in which time he should have been able to
gently steer right and pass you without incident.

I think he was trying to pass me on the left. I agree if I had that
much time I would have been able to turn left hard or slide by on the
right. He probably had less time than 3 seconds, though. Maybe his
brakes weren't up to par.

Quoted message said:

How wide was the trail?

Eight or nine feet, bisected by a yellow line.

Collin wrote:
:: Frederic Briere wrote:
::: Collin <[email hidden]> wrote:
:::
:::: about 13 mph, looked to my left and saw a turnoff I should have
:::: taken. With no oncoming traffic, I braked and swung to the left...
:::
:::
:::: Then I thought about it for a moment. Isn't it your responsibility
:::: to read the road in front of you? If we were cars, he would have
:::: been guilty. No doubts at all. What about a bike path? He had
:::: no lights,
:::
:::
::: Maybe I missed something, but are you saying that if you were
::: driving a car on the roadway, it would be perfectly okay to stop
::: and turn without any warning, and without looking back?
::
:: It would have been different in a car, which is why I was interested
:: in getting everyone's opinion. 1) Brake lights on cars give the
:: following driver a warning. Bikes don't. 2) At least California and
:: Illinois vehicle code place the responsibility on the following
:: driver unless the leading driver intentionally causes and accident.
:: 3) Yes, if I was driving, I would have looked back. This is
:: definitely something I should have done. I was careless.'

If it were dark enough, on an unlit trail, and if he didn't have a
headlight, you might not have seen him even if you looked back. Obviously,
there was enough light from some source that he could ride with headlights.
Or perhaps he was on your tail because YOU had a light source....

::
:::
::: I'm not playing the blame game -- just pointing out that I don't
::: understand your argument. What was the other cyclist supposed to
::: "read", anyway?
:::
::
:: Good question. If I saw someone in front of me brake I would have
:: considered a change in direction. But maybe not. And, if I had no
:: lights, I might not detect the braking. After seeing enough erratic
:: behavior of people on trails, I've learned to give myself enough
:: distance to react to most possibilities. That's why I'm always
:: impressed by bicyclists who run red lights with cross-traffic. They
:: leave themselves no margin. The same applies to driving. I think most
:: people leave themselves a margin for error when they're driving.

"Frederic Briere" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Maybe I missed something, but are you saying that if you were driving a
car on the roadway, it would be perfectly okay to stop and turn without
any warning, and without looking back?

If you are following too close to avoid a collision if the person
in front of you suddenly stops, you are at fault. Vehicles can
have unexpected mechanical failures at any time. If this
were to cause the vehicle to suddenly stop, you have to
be far enough back to allow for your reaction time in any
event.

"Collin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It would have been different in a car, which is why I was interested in
getting everyone's opinion. 1) Brake lights on cars give the following
driver a warning.

Only if the brake light come on. What if the engine or transmission
were to lock up and cause the vehicle to suddenly stop without
warning. You are not supposed to follow closer than your reaction
time would allow you to respond in this type of situation. The fact
that most people follow too close is why there are so many
rear end collisions.

You were going about 13 mph, straight ahead. He was going 13 mph (or so)
right behind you. There is no indication he was planning to pass you, so no
reason to call out. Suddenly, you decelerated and turned left, effectively
blocking his way. The fact that his mouth kicked in faster than his brakes
contributed to the accident, but I think you should have both learned from
this.

1.) Even on what seems to be a deserted trail, someone may be behind you.
Bicycles are very quiet.
2.) A rider who appears to have no intention to turn or stop may suddenly
become an obstacle.

How many times have you come up behind another rider and followed smoothly,
with no incident? In many or most cases the rider in front may not have
been aware of your presence. The fact that this happens a lot, and seldom
causes a problem makes us gradually become less alert to the possibility
that the unexpected could occur.

I recall an occasion when I was riding, completely alone on a remote paved
trail. Hadn't seen anyone for, maybe, a half hour. I decided to turn
around and go back, and I turned across the trail and stopped. Almost got
broadsided by another rider who had come up behind me. You can never be
completely sure of anything.

Leo Lichtman wrote:
|| You were going about 13 mph, straight ahead. He was going 13 mph
|| (or so) right behind you. There is no indication he was planning to
|| pass you, so no reason to call out. Suddenly, you decelerated and
|| turned left, effectively blocking his way. The fact that his mouth
|| kicked in faster than his brakes contributed to the accident, but I
|| think you should have both learned from this.
||
|| 1.) Even on what seems to be a deserted trail, someone may be
|| behind you. Bicycles are very quiet.
|| 2.) A rider who appears to have no intention to turn or stop may
|| suddenly become an obstacle.
||
|| How many times have you come up behind another rider and followed
|| smoothly, with no incident? In many or most cases the rider in
|| front may not have been aware of your presence. The fact that this
|| happens a lot, and seldom causes a problem makes us gradually become
|| less alert to the possibility that the unexpected could occur.
||
|| I recall an occasion when I was riding, completely alone on a remote
|| paved trail. Hadn't seen anyone for, maybe, a half hour. I decided
|| to turn around and go back, and I turned across the trail and
|| stopped. Almost got broadsided by another rider who had come up
|| behind me. You can never be completely sure of anything.

This happened to me this past Saturday. I was out for my usual ride. I had
just completed a hill that had me a little winded, so I was resting a
bit....after a while (I must have fallen asleep) some guy passes me. The
dude had on a coat and ankle weights - this is in SC in September - it is by
no means cool. Anyway, while he pulls away, I start thinking: that dude has
a coat on and is wearing ankle weights - and is pulling away from me. That
woke me up, so I start hauling ass to catch him. I did so, but decided to
just sit on his tail for a few moments. After a while, we were going
uphill. He was moving too slowly now, so I decided to pass him no the left.
So I yelled out "On your left". As I zoomed by he was startled because he
thought he had smoked me. But he didn't even know I was on his tail. Of
course, he was wearing headphones, too.