Rhyl Inquest Continues...

Helen Deborah Vecht said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/6756579.stm

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
Edgware.

One of the cyclist who was injured, had on an earlier cycle ride (a
while ago) also got clipped by a car that had slipped on ice and got
his foot broken...

On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 00:26:48 -0700, "The other view point, there is one

you know... said:

Helen Deborah Vecht said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/6756579.stm

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
Edgware.

One of the cyclist who was injured, had on an earlier cycle ride (a
while ago) also got clipped by a car that had slipped on ice and got
his foot broken...

You would have thought lessons would be learned from that incident. But
no, motorists persist in driving dangerously.

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote on 16/06/2007 01:42 +0100:

Quoted message said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/6756579.stm

Five minutes scraping ice off his car windows and still he was surprised
the road was icy?

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

Tony Raven wrote on 16/06/2007 :

Quoted message said:

Five minutes scraping ice off his car windows and still he was surprised the
road was icy?

Well, obviously. That was when he was *outside* his car. ;-)

--
Simon

Tony Raven said:

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote on 16/06/2007 01:42 +0100:

Quoted message said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/6756579.stm

Five minutes scraping ice off his car windows and still he was surprised
the road was icy?

looks like a rather fast strait road. i guess one could be fooled into
thinking it's okay. after all you don't tend to get feedback as to
traction unless your changing, speed/postion. this said the fact that he
must of felt the cold air and he did have to clear his car. should
suggested a careful drive.

roger

Roger Merriman <[email hidden]> whizzed past me shouting

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Five minutes scraping ice off his car windows and still he was surprised
the road was icy?

looks like a rather fast strait road. i guess one could be fooled into
thinking it's okay. after all you don't tend to get feedback as to
traction unless your changing, speed/postion. this said the fact that he
must of felt the cold air and he did have to clear his car. should
suggested a careful drive.

He said the road "looked clear". Black ice is invisible.

I learnt this when riding my Raleigh Shopper one moment, and the next
moment sliding along on the soles of my feet - accompanied by the bike
but no longer in contact with it.

--
Sue ];(🙂

Why aren't we demanding regular retests for motor drivers?
It's obvious a lot of them would fail so that'd solve the congestion problem too.

Sue White said:

Roger Merriman <[email hidden]> whizzed past me shouting

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Five minutes scraping ice off his car windows and still he was surprised
the road was icy?

looks like a rather fast strait road. i guess one could be fooled into
thinking it's okay. after all you don't tend to get feedback as to
traction unless your changing, speed/postion. this said the fact that he
must of felt the cold air and he did have to clear his car. should
suggested a careful drive.

He said the road "looked clear". Black ice is invisible.

I learnt this when riding my Raleigh Shopper one moment, and the next
moment sliding along on the soles of my feet - accompanied by the bike
but no longer in contact with it.

not invisible just hard to spot, a bike isn't as stable as a car thus if
you do loose grip you can hit the floor at slow speeds a car is rather
good.

the problem is speed, too fast and you just keep going. yes the road
looked clear, but then you need to expect the unexpected, you do get
patches of ice, the question is i guess to what level.

roger

More on:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/6221950.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/6226498.stm

Words fail.

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
Edgware.

Helen Deborah Vecht said:

More on:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/6221950.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/6226498.stm

Words fail.

it does look very avoidable, does it not. and as he lost control he was
driving too fast for the road. i suspose the question is he culpble ie
was it reasonble to expect ice on the road.

if so 50 mph round a courner is dangerous as indeed it sadly was.

roger

Roger Merriman wrote on 23/06/2007 01:15 +0100:

Quoted message said:

it does look very avoidable, does it not. and as he lost control he was
driving too fast for the road. i suspose the question is he culpble ie
was it reasonble to expect ice on the road.

Given that other drivers were reporting frozen puddles on the roads and
that they "had never seen so much frost on the roads" plus that the
driver had spent five minutes scraping ice off the car you can only
conclude that he could not have been other than aware of the situation.
It is notable that other drivers did notice these things and the
majority of drivers were able to deal with the conditions.

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

in message <[email hidden]>, Sue White

(') said:

Roger Merriman <[email hidden]> whizzed past me shouting

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Five minutes scraping ice off his car windows and still he was
surprised the road was icy?

looks like a rather fast strait road. i guess one could be fooled into
thinking it's okay. after all you don't tend to get feedback as to
traction unless your changing, speed/postion. this said the fact that he
must of felt the cold air and he did have to clear his car. should
suggested a careful drive.

He said the road "looked clear". Black ice is invisible.

That's why responsible people don't drive fast when the temperature is
below freezing.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

[ This .sig subject to change without notice ]

in message <[email hidden]>, Helen Deborah Vecht

(') said:

More on:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/6221950.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/6226498.stm

Having read them both the highways engineer is clearly incompetent and
irresponsible, but I don't in the least feel that exculpates the driver.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
.::;===r==\
/ /___||___\____
//==\- ||- | /__\( MS Windows IS an operating environment.
//____\__||___|_// \|: C++ IS an object oriented programming language.
\__/ ~~~~~~~~~ \__/ Citroen 2cv6 IS a four door family saloon.

Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Helen Deborah Vecht
([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

More on:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/6221950.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/6226498.stm

Quoted message said:

Having read them both the highways engineer is clearly incompetent and
irresponsible, but I don't in the least feel that exculpates the driver.

A call from a woman driver reporting ice gets less credence than one
from a man, it seems.

Grrrrr!

My SoH has failed, sorry.

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
Edgware.

Simon Brooke said:

Having read them both the highways engineer is clearly incompetent and
irresponsible, but I don't in the least feel that exculpates the driver.

I don't like the way this is going. Looks like the "blame" will be on
the road engineer.

Another point - the driver was not interviewed till three days after the
event. Three days? If you killed four people, accidentally or not, by
any other means you would be interviewed a darn sight faster than that.

John Hearns <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

Simon Brooke said:

Having read them both the highways engineer is clearly incompetent and
irresponsible, but I don't in the least feel that exculpates the driver.

Quoted message said:

I don't like the way this is going. Looks like the "blame" will be on
the road engineer.

Quoted message said:

Another point - the driver was not interviewed till three days after the
event. Three days? If you killed four people, accidentally or not, by
any other means you would be interviewed a darn sight faster than that.

'Only' three days in one report...

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
Edgware.

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote on 23/06/2007 13:16 +0100:

Quoted message said:

John Hearns <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

Simon Brooke said:

Having read them both the highways engineer is clearly incompetent and
irresponsible, but I don't in the least feel that exculpates the driver.

Quoted message said:

I don't like the way this is going. Looks like the "blame" will be on
the road engineer.

Quoted message said:

Another point - the driver was not interviewed till three days after the
event. Three days? If you killed four people, accidentally or not, by
any other means you would be interviewed a darn sight faster than that.

'Only' three days in one report...

Cummon, its only a minor misdemeanor after all. Its not like he killed
anyone that matters. ;-^(

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

John Hearns said:

Simon Brooke said:

Having read them both the highways engineer is clearly incompetent and
irresponsible, but I don't in the least feel that exculpates the driver.

I don't like the way this is going. Looks like the "blame" will be on
the road engineer.

Looks to me so far the fault seems to be...

The procedure for getting a gritter out if there was not a need
previously.

i.e. The temperature dropped more than was forecasted, what triggers
the gritting?

Call from the police dangerous/accidents?
How dangerous?
Who decides dangerous, PC/Sgt/Insp
How many accidents?
What sort of accidents?

Weather forecast update,
How often?
Are the requested?
Are they on auto email from the 'Met office'

Cost
Does the road warrant a gritting based on the above?
If they do one road, are they obliged to do the 'critical
routes' as well?
When will the sun melt the ice, 1 hr - 5 hr?

Decisions, decisions

Hindsight is not allowed...

in message <[email hidden]>, The
other view point, there is one you know...

(') said:

John Hearns said:

Simon Brooke said:

Having read them both the highways engineer is clearly incompetent and
irresponsible, but I don't in the least feel that exculpates the
driver.

I don't like the way this is going. Looks like the "blame" will be on
the road engineer.

Looks to me so far the fault seems to be...

The /fault/ is clear. It is 100% with the driver, who was going too fast
for the conditions in a badly maintained car he lacked the skill to
control.

The roads department are shown up as incompetent, and the engineer is shown
up as being a clueless prejudiced jobsworth, but neither of those things
excuses a driver of driving too fast for the conditions.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Das Internet is nicht fuer gefingerclicken und giffengrabben... Ist
nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen. Das mausklicken sichtseeren
keepen das bandwit-spewin hans in das pockets muss; relaxen und
watchen das cursorblinken. -- quoted from the jargon file

The other view point, there is one you know...

Quoted message said:

John Hearns said:

Simon Brooke said:

Having read them both the highways engineer is clearly incompetent and
irresponsible, but I don't in the least feel that exculpates the driver.

I don't like the way this is going. Looks like the "blame" will be on
the road engineer.

Looks to me so far the fault seems to be...

The procedure for getting a gritter out if there was not a need
previously.

i.e. The temperature dropped more than was forecasted, what triggers
the gritting?

Call from the police dangerous/accidents?
How dangerous?
Who decides dangerous, PC/Sgt/Insp
How many accidents?
What sort of accidents?

Weather forecast update,
How often?
Are the requested?
Are they on auto email from the 'Met office'

Cost
Does the road warrant a gritting based on the above?
If they do one road, are they obliged to do the 'critical
routes' as well?
When will the sun melt the ice, 1 hr - 5 hr?

Decisions, decisions

Hindsight is not allowed...

true it is balance but certinaly differnat councils have differnent
standurds. can be quite a obvouse border as you go from a icey road to a
clear.

roger