Returning to cycling

Geoff Lane said:

After years away from cycling, I'd like to get back into recreational
cycling. I'm 6ft 4in tall and so need a large-framed bike. I've got a low
budget and the Giant Cypress SE (23" frame) seemed ideal. My local bike
shop got one for me but there's a problem. In top gear (largest
chainring/smallest rear cog), there is enough flex in the chainset etc. for
the chain to foul the outside of the front changer cage every time I push
down on the right-hand pedal. This only happens when riding the bike (i.e.
no fouling occurs when testing on a stand).

The bike shop have had a go at fixing the bike. They've replaced the
chainset and bottom bracket (I hope that means the axle!) and they say it's
about 95% fixed. However, they tell me that if you really stand on the
pedals in top gear the chain still fouls the front changer.

Is this fouling to be expected with a budget bike in a larger frame size?
Is it acceptable, or should I reject the bike? If the latter, any
recommendations (up to about £250)?

TIA,

It can probably be sorted with proper adjustment of the front derailleur
so that it sits a little further out in top gear. Its not an uncommon
problem on many bikes and usually easily fixed with a bit of tinkering
to find the right balance between far enough out to stop the rubbing and
not so far that it throws the chain off when you change up.

--
Tony

"A facility for quotation covers the absence of original thought" Lord
Peter Wimsey (Dorothy L. Sayers)

Geoff Lane said:

After years away from cycling, I'd like to get back into recreational
cycling. I'm 6ft 4in tall and so need a large-framed bike. I've got a
low budget and the Giant Cypress SE (23" frame) seemed ideal. My
local bike shop got one for me but there's a problem. In top gear
(largest chainring/smallest rear cog), there is enough flex in the
chainset etc. for the chain to foul the outside of the front changer
cage every time I push down on the right-hand pedal. This only
happens when riding the bike (i.e. no fouling occurs when testing on
a stand).

The bike shop have had a go at fixing the bike. They've replaced the
chainset and bottom bracket (I hope that means the axle!) and they
say it's about 95% fixed. However, they tell me that if you really
stand on the pedals in top gear the chain still fouls the front
changer.

Is this fouling to be expected with a budget bike in a larger frame
size? Is it acceptable, or should I reject the bike? If the latter,
any recommendations (up to about £250)?

I can't tell if there's some serious problem or inadequacy with your
cranks or frame but there is always /some/ flex in the cranks, which can
cause rubbing if the derailleur is not adjusted to allow for it. You need
enough margin in there for the flex. It's a very common problem. I would
have a go at adjusting the limit screw, and possibly the angle/height of
the whole derailleur, before worrying about anything more serious.

See http://sheldonbrown.com/derailer-adjustment.html

~PB

Geoff Lane said:

The bike shop have had a go at fixing the bike. They've replaced the
chainset and bottom bracket (I hope that means the axle!) and they
say it's about 95% fixed. However, they tell me that if you really
stand on the pedals in top gear the chain still fouls the front
changer.

Did they not mention anything about the front changer? This is something
bike shops often don't spend enough time adjusting.

~PB

"Pete Biggs" <p@honeydewbiggs{remove_melon}.tc> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Did they not mention anything about the front changer? This is
something bike shops often don't spend enough time adjusting.

Thanks guys.

Yes, the "95% fixed" is after replacing the chainset etc. and adjusting
the front changer to the "optimal" position. The bike is brand new, so I
was expecting everything to work flawlessly.

In the old days, I wouldn't have worried overly - I'd have just adjusted
the outer limit stop and that would be that. However, this bike has
those "new-fangled" Shimano EZ Fire changers, which have only indexed
functionality - so I don't have "on the move" fine control over changer
position. Personally, I hate "quick-fire" shifters (I started cycling
pre-index, when Huret Svelto was brand new) - but "quick fire" seems all
that bikes of today offer.

I guess that, pragmatically, if the chain only rubs in top gear when
really standing on the pedals it's no big deal because I'd normally
changed down rather than push that hard. I'm going to re-check the bike
on Monday and, if it's OK, complete the purchase. I guess that I'm after
a reality check as to whether my expectations are too high.

Thanks again,

--
Geoff Lane
Cornwall, UK

in message <[email hidden]>, Geoff Lane

(') said:

After years away from cycling, I'd like to get back into recreational
cycling. I'm 6ft 4in tall and so need a large-framed bike. I've got a
low budget and the Giant Cypress SE (23" frame) seemed ideal. My local
bike shop got one for me but there's a problem. In top gear (largest
chainring/smallest rear cog), there is enough flex in the chainset
etc. for the chain to foul the outside of the front changer cage every
time I push down on the right-hand pedal. This only happens when
riding the bike (i.e. no fouling occurs when testing on a stand).

The bike shop have had a go at fixing the bike. They've replaced the
chainset and bottom bracket (I hope that means the axle!) and they say
it's about 95% fixed. However, they tell me that if you really stand
on the pedals in top gear the chain still fouls the front changer.

Is this fouling to be expected with a budget bike in a larger frame
size? Is it acceptable, or should I reject the bike? If the latter,
any recommendations (up to about £250)?

Frankly yes, but it also has something to do with your pedalling style.
Firstly, all chainsets - even expensive ones - flex. All chainsets with
pressed steel chainrings flex a lot - easily enough to cause the
symptoms you describe. The frame also, obviously, flexes too but this
contributes relatively little to the problem.

But if you 'spin' - stay in lower gears and pedal with a higher cadence
- you put much less stress on the chainset (and, incidentally, on your
knees) than if you 'mash' - use high gears and pedal with a slow
cadence. If you use inappropriately high gears you will get the
symptoms you describe even with a £700 chainset. So no, it isn't really
a problem with the bike. The system will still work. But it will work
better if you develop your pedalling style to be kinder to your body
and the bike.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

The Conservative Party is now dead. The corpse may still be
twitching, but resurrection is not an option - unless Satan
chucks them out of Hell as too objectionable even for him.

Geoff Lane said:

Thanks guys.

Yes, the "95% fixed" is after replacing the chainset etc. and adjusting
the front changer to the "optimal" position. The bike is brand new, so I
was expecting everything to work flawlessly.

That indicates that the bike shop do not really know what they are
doing. Changing the chainset won't make much difference. Changing the
bottom bracket might. It just needs a simple adjustment by someone
competent or else follow Sheldon Brown's excellent instructions
http://sheldonbrown.com/derailer-adjustment.html

--
Tony

"A facility for quotation covers the absence of original thought" Lord
Peter Wimsey (Dorothy L. Sayers)

in message <[email hidden]>, Geoff Lane

(') said:

In the old days, I wouldn't have worried overly - I'd have just
adjusted the outer limit stop and that would be that. However, this
bike has those "new-fangled" Shimano EZ Fire changers, which have only
indexed functionality - so I don't have "on the move" fine control
over changer position. Personally, I hate "quick-fire" shifters (I
started cycling pre-index, when Huret Svelto was brand new) - but
"quick fire" seems all that bikes of today offer.

Yes, Shimano are [censored] from the trimming point of view. However, Shimano
are not the only game in town. SRAM GripShift shifters allow you to
trim the front deraileur, as do Campagnolo Ergo levers. You can get the
SRAM GripShifts from about a tenner upwards, and you can get them in
pull ratios which match Shimano deraileurs.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
"This young man has not the faintest idea how socialists think and does
not begin to understand the mentality of the party he has been elected
to lead. He is quite simply a liberal"
-- Ken Coates MEP (Lab) of Tony Blair

Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> wrote in news:m6ail2-jc5.ln1
@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk:

Quoted message said:

Shimano are [censored] from the trimming point of view. However, Shimano
are not the only game in town. SRAM GripShift shifters allow you to
trim the front deraileur, as do Campagnolo Ergo levers. You can get the
SRAM GripShifts from about a tenner upwards, and you can get them in
pull ratios which match Shimano deraileurs.

Thanks for the info. However, this is a brand new, out-of-the-box bike.
IMO, the manufacturer should have chosen components that work properly
together and the retailer should have assembled and adjusted it correctly.
Obviously there will be problems if either hasn't done their job properly,
so I wouldn't (and probably shouldn't) expect to buy a brand-new bike and
then change components just to get it to work. That said, I may eventually
change the shifters or get used to "quick-fire".

--
Geoff Lane
Cornwall, UK

On 14/5/05 11:20 pm, in article
[email hidden], "Simon Brooke"

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Geoff Lane

(') said:

In the old days, I wouldn't have worried overly - I'd have just
adjusted the outer limit stop and that would be that. However, this
bike has those "new-fangled" Shimano EZ Fire changers, which have only
indexed functionality - so I don't have "on the move" fine control
over changer position. Personally, I hate "quick-fire" shifters (I
started cycling pre-index, when Huret Svelto was brand new) - but
"quick fire" seems all that bikes of today offer.

Yes, Shimano are [censored] from the trimming point of view. However, Shimano
are not the only game in town. SRAM GripShift shifters allow you to
trim the front deraileur, as do Campagnolo Ergo levers. You can get the
SRAM GripShifts from about a tenner upwards, and you can get them in
pull ratios which match Shimano deraileurs.

I like the rapidfire for the rear but have stuck with my OEM sram gripshift
on the front (over 8 years old and showing it). The trim is essential for
happy riding unless you have a very long chainline.

So I have a shiny new XT front rapidfire changer that I am not going to use.

...d

Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1i7il2-525.ln1
@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk:

Quoted message said:

Frankly yes, but it also has something to do with your pedalling style.
Firstly, all chainsets - even expensive ones - flex. All chainsets with
pressed steel chainrings flex a lot - easily enough to cause the
symptoms you describe. The frame also, obviously, flexes too but this
contributes relatively little to the problem.

---
Thanks for your input.

I still have my old bike - an ancient Specialized Stumpjumper Comp
(without suspension and with Shimano XT 21-speed gears). However, it's
only a 20" frame and too small for me. That's why I stopped cycling some
years ago - but I did ride it up and down the street when I got back from
trying the Giant. There was no chain/changer fouling but, more
importantly, there was much less flexing of the chainset and frame with
the Specialized than with the Giant despite me riding the Specialized a
lot harder. However, the Specialized is an ATB and was almost top-of-the-
range when new. OTOH, the Giant is an entry-level comfort bike so I don't
think that I was really comparing like-for-like and that's why I made my
original post.

Quoted message said:

But if you 'spin' - stay in lower gears and pedal with a higher cadence
- you put much less stress on the chainset (and, incidentally, on your
knees) than if you 'mash' - use high gears and pedal with a slow
cadence. If you use inappropriately high gears you will get the
symptoms you describe even with a £700 chainset. So no, it isn't
really a problem with the bike. The system will still work. But it
will work better if you develop your pedalling style to be kinder to
your body and the bike.

---
I tested the Giant on the flat and didn't get out of the saddle. FWIW, I
try to keep a constant cadence (60 pushes, or 30 revs per minute-ish) and
change gear to keep a constant pressure - letting road speed increase or
decay. I'm neither young enough nor fit enough to really "mash". That's
why I wrote in another post that fouling only in top gear and with more
pressure than I'd put on the pedals in normal use would be
(pragmatically) OK - because I'd normally change down before the onset of
fouling.

Thanks again.

--
Geoff Lane
Cornwall, UK

in message <[email hidden]>, Geoff Lane

(') said:

Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> wrote in news:m6ail2-jc5.ln1
@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk:

Quoted message said:

Shimano are [censored] from the trimming point of view. However, Shimano
are not the only game in town. SRAM GripShift shifters allow you to
trim the front deraileur, as do Campagnolo Ergo levers. You can get
the SRAM GripShifts from about a tenner upwards, and you can get them
in pull ratios which match Shimano deraileurs.

Thanks for the info. However, this is a brand new, out-of-the-box
bike. IMO, the manufacturer should have chosen components that work
properly together and the retailer should have assembled and adjusted
it correctly.

It does, for ordinary everyday values of 'work'. Yes, the chain chirrs
on the front deraileur, yes, it's irritating and one wishes it
wouldn't. But the combination of cheap pressed steel chainrings and
non-trimmable shifters make it inevitable.

'The market' won't pay the price for quality forged chainsets, and 'the
market' likes indexed shifters. Consequently the market gets bikes
which are prone to this fault. It doesn't stop the bike from working;
the loss of efficiency must be very small. And I really don't think you
can expect more on a £200 bike.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; 99% of browsers can't run ActiveX controls. Unfortunately
;; 99% of users are using the 1% of browsers that can...
[seen on /. 08:04:02]

in message <[email hidden]>, Geoff Lane

(') said:

Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1i7il2-525.ln1
@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk:

Quoted message said:

But if you 'spin' - stay in lower gears and pedal with a higher
cadence - you put much less stress on the chainset (and,
incidentally, on your knees) than if you 'mash' - use high gears and
pedal with a slow cadence. If you use inappropriately high gears you
will get the symptoms you describe even with a £700 chainset. So no,
it isn't really a problem with the bike. The system will still work.
But it will work better if you develop your pedalling style to be
kinder to your body and the bike.

---
I tested the Giant on the flat and didn't get out of the saddle. FWIW,
I try to keep a constant cadence (60 pushes, or 30 revs per
minute-ish) and change gear to keep a constant pressure - letting road
speed increase or decay.

30rpm is a pretty low cadence. I'm 49 and not that fit and tend to pedal
at about 75-80 rpm. I tried to train myself up to 100 rpm over the
winter but couldn't really manage it. However the point is that if you
train yourself to spin it's much kinder on your joints and it's much
kinder on the bike. Of course younger and fitter people use a much
higher cadence...

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn.
;; Jim Morrison

On 15 May 2005 09:11:23 GMT, Geoff Lane <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

I tested the Giant on the flat and didn't get out of the saddle. FWIW, I
try to keep a constant cadence (60 pushes, or 30 revs per minute-ish)

Good in theory, but are you sure about that cadence? I usually cruise
at 100+

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 15 May 2005 09:11:23 GMT, Geoff Lane <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

I tested the Giant on the flat and didn't get out of the saddle. FWIW, I
try to keep a constant cadence (60 pushes, or 30 revs per minute-ish)

Good in theory, but are you sure about that cadence? I usually cruise
at 100+

I'm finding higher cadence works much better on my bent, I seem most
comfortable at 95-110. I tried to keep myself to 90 together with a low
power output for the 1st stage of the Meopham today, and I ended up more
knackered than I needed to be I think. I went back to my usual cadence for
the rest of the trip and was instantly faster and happier.

Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

30rpm is a pretty low cadence. I'm 49 and not that fit and tend to
pedal at about 75-80 rpm. I tried to train myself up to 100 rpm over
the winter but couldn't really manage it. However the point is that if
you train yourself to spin it's much kinder on your joints and it's
much kinder on the bike. Of course younger and fitter people use a
much higher cadence...

I've been on this planet a few years longer than you and have led a
sedentary lifestyle for some years. However, my guestimation of 30 rpm
was way off. I re-checked the bike today and also took the opportunity
to check my cadence: 1 min 5 secs for 60 revs - so that's actually about
55 rpm. When I did my guestimation, it was sat in front of the computer
"pedalling" with my hands at the rate I thought about right (well,
that's my excuse <vbg>😉.

Now that the shop has replaced the chainset and bottom bracket with
better quality items, the bike is transformed. I could only get a slight
"chirr" by standing on the pedals in top gear at slow speed and there's
no fouling at all in normal use. IMO, Certini Bicycles went beyond the
call of duty to sort this out for me. They also gave me a very good deal
on a Pendle spare-tyre carrier and some accessories for my new bike. I'm
very pleased to have found them and I'm sure they'll get my custom
again.

Thanks to all for your help.

--
Geoff Lane
Cornwall, UK