Cycling Training · Public discussion

research quandry

Started by kopride · · Last activity · 8 posts · 941 views

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Cycling Training
Published
30 November 2006
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30 November 2006
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kopride
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  1. As I was mulling over the "interesting study" thread, It seemed to me that the doping issue has really retarded the ability to conduct valuable research involving elite cyclists. The Daubert standards used by the federal courts are actually a pretty good test of whether a particular study or theory is really scientific: (1) whether the theory can be and has been tested; (2) whether the theory has been subjected to peer review and publication; (3) the known or potential rate of error; (4) the existence and maintenance of standards controlling its operation; and (5) whether it has achieved general acceptance in the relevant community. But applying these standards, there is a huge unknown factor that may or may not be enhancing performance apart from the examined variable such as simply adjusting training or diet. Assuming that the most likely population sample for this type of research, elite cyclists, is possibly tainted by the possibility that study participants could be doping, research has to jump down to the next level or serious amateur competitors or recreational cyclists. The problem is that in addition to any control issues you may have with any sample, with amateurs you have any number of other factors related to their real job, family obligations, genetics, diet, motivation to really see whether a particular variable is significant. In other words, you better have a pretty big sample before you start claiming significant results with this type of population. The truth is, is that kind of research any better than the trial and error used by most better coaches? I.E. my cyclists are getting faster and beating their competitors therefore my methods are valid. If so, the research only satisfies the first two prongs and the last three are really in serious question.

    For example, if you ran a regression analysis on the entire field of pro elite cyclists to see whether weight training, or large gear training, or whatever, enhanced race performance, how could you even be sure that significance was related to whatever variable is being examined, as opposed to their particular doping regieme. And that doesn't even get into what kind of doping because obviously there are no peer reviewed studies showing what kind of doping regiemes are most effective against each other because that assumes that athletes admit doping and undergo rigorous peer reviewed studies comparing doping regiemes with certain training regiemes.

    And how is a small study sample, even under lab conditions, any better than the trial and error used by a good amateur coach with hundreds of athletes?

  2. kopride said:

    And how is a small study sample, even under lab conditions, any better than the trial and error used by a good amateur coach with hundreds of athletes?


    Is that the question, or the answer? IOW, isn't the selection of appropriate sample size determined by the amount of variance between subjects, but as long as the size is appropriate the results are still equally valid?

    If we can't get all the elite cyclists to adhere to a standardized doping regiment, then we'll just have to use a bigger sample group for our tests. 😉

  3. kopride said:

    how is a small study sample, even under lab conditions, any better than the trial and error used by a good amateur coach with hundreds of athletes?

    Because it is conducted under lab conditions by an individual with training in scientific methodology, as opposed to reflecting the "gut impressions" of an all-too-often insufficiently skeptical non-scientist.

    BTW, why do you think that only studies performed on elite athletes are valid? They are, after all, a lot more like you and me than, say, a rat might be, yet an enormous amount of useful knowledge has been gained by studying training-induced adaptations in rats.

  4. frenchyge said:

    Is that the question, or the answer? IOW, isn't the selection of appropriate sample size determined by the amount of variance between subjects, but as long as the size is appropriate the results are still equally valid?

    If we can't get all the elite cyclists to adhere to a standardized doping regiment, then we'll just have to use a bigger sample group for our tests. 😉

    It is a [censored] to control and evaluate a huge study involving amateur cyclists. When have you seen a study of thousands of amateur cylclist following the same regieme.

  5. kopride said:

    It is a [censored] to control and evaluate a huge study involving amateur cyclists.

    True.

    kopride said:

    When have you seen a study of thousands of amateur cylclist following the same regieme.

    Never. Then again, why are such studies desirable? For example, would you want your doctor to prescribe exactly the same drug regimen (dose, drug) for you as been shown to work best, on average, in large-scale multicenter trials, or would you prefer that he adjusted the dosage and/or drug based on your individual response to it? I know which of the two approaches I'd prefer my doctor use (it's called evidence-based medicine for a reason).

  6. acoggan said:

    Because it is conducted under lab conditions by an individual with training in scientific methodology, as opposed to reflecting the "gut impressions" of an all-too-often insufficiently skeptical non-scientist.

    BTW, why do you think that only studies performed on elite athletes are valid? They are, after all, a lot more like you and me than, say, a rat might be, yet an enormous amount of useful knowledge has been gained by studying training-induced adaptations in rats.


    Ok so, the first two prongs of daubert are met in the lab, and in all fairness to the coach, his method undergoes a form of "test" in the form of a race. In other words, I have coached hundreds of cyclists, here are my results. My problem with amateur cyclists is you need a huge sample. My performance is geatly affected by what I spend my 8-10 hour days doing, how my kids are feeling, etc. My geuss is that my motivation for cycling and participating in a study creates more variables. So you have a huge problem with Daubert 3, the known or potential rate of error, and an even bigger problem with 4, since there is a great deal of variability in terms of the trials. General acceptance is also a problem given the quality of peer review among the various journals. Some are great, some are send us an article so we have something to print.

  7. acoggan said:

    True.

    Never. Then again, why are such studies desirable? For example, would you want your doctor to prescribe exactly the same drug regimen (dose, drug) for you as been shown to work best, on average, in large-scale multicenter trials, or would you prefer that he adjusted the dosage and/or drug based on your individual response to it? I know which of the two approaches I'd prefer my doctor use (it's called evidence-based medicine for a reason).


    Most doctors will admit that medicine is as much an art as a science. Surgical outcome research studies are also a [censored] because surgery is even more of an art. But at least surgery doesn't usually depend upon the active participation of the patient during surgery. When you are conducting exercise related research, you are depending upon an honest effort by participants, and everyone has a different starting point and cooperation variables

    Most doctors will also tell you that the give the greatest credence to large scale population studies as opposed to smaller clinical trials or studies. If this is being done in the exercise physiology field concerning the efficacy of certain types of training regimiens, it would be very interesting. Finally, my real point is that it is a damn shame that the doping efforts of various pro cyclists are impeding true scientific progress in your field.

  8. frenchyge said:


    If we can't get all the elite cyclists to adhere to a standardized doping regiment, then we'll just have to use a bigger sample group for our tests. 😉


    It is amazing that these pros are essentially willing to engage in a totally unscientific test using their own bodies and careers. None of this doping is subject to real peer review or controls. It is all basically trial and error.

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