Removing 'lawyer lugs'

[Gemma_k]

"Absent Husband" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi Karen,
>
> Just a question - whilst I think you can remove those lugs, why would
> you want to??
>
Coz if you're always changing wheels, or removing the front wheel to
lock/unlock your bike a lot the lawyer lugs are a pain in the ****!
For my bikes where I regularly remove the front wheel I file the lugs off.
Gemm

 

[DeF]

Karen Gallagher wrote:
> darryl wrote:
>> In article
>> <[email protected]>,
>> "Karen Gallagher" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Both my bikes have little protrusions on the fork drop outs that
>>> prevent the hub quick release from ... quick releasing. Known, I
>>> believe, as 'lawyer lugs' as it may prevent legal action if you're
>>> stupid enough to not have the QR set right.
>>>
>>> Any reason why I should not file them off? One's a carbon fork, by
>>> the way. Seems such a shame to not have working QR hubs.
>>>
>>> I can't see any reason myself, but before I do I thought I'd throw
>>> it open for comment.
>>>
>>> Karen
>> Carbon fibre dust is regarded by some as dangerous to inhale/ingest
>> when cutting. I can remember the extreme precautions taken when the
>> Blackhawk helicopters crashed in High Range Training Area.
>>
>> Read the following Material Safety Data Sheet:
>> <http://www.robotmarketplace.com/images/CF_material_safety.pdf>
>>
>> Read the FAQ about CF:
>> <http://www.robotmarketplace.com/store_carbon_fiber_faq.html>
>>
>> Incidentally, this is a supplier who thinks the dangers are
>> over-rated. I think it is too early in its existence to make that
>> claim. I can also remember back when asbestos was safe to cut (and
>> jump on and play with).
>>
>> regards,
>> Darryl
>
> Makes sense. So, if I use coarse wet & dry sandpaper wet, and gloves, I
> should be OK. I had planned to use my jeweller's hand tool with a diamond
> bit at 10k RPM, this is clearly out.
>
> The carbon forks, BTW, are on my road bike, which has no such lugs on the
> rear. I'll leave the lugs on the hybrid, they don't bother me as much.
>
> Thanks for all the input, folks.
>
> Karen
>

It's unlikely that the drop-outs are made of carbon fibre.
More likely alloy which is bonded to the carbon blades, which
is the case with my two carbon forks. Easy to tell as there
is bound to be paint scraped of around the drop-outs and the
alloy will show through.

DeF

--
e-mail: d.farrow@your finger.murdoch.edu.au
To reply, you'll have to remove your finger.

 

[DeF]

Graeme Dods wrote:
> Karen Gallagher wrote:
>
>> Any reason why I should not file them off? One's a carbon fork, by the way.
>> Seems such a shame to not have working QR hubs.
>>
>> I can't see any reason myself, but before I do I thought I'd throw it open
>> for comment.
>
> You'll find some relevant information abot why they are there (and why
> they sometimes don't do all that they're designed for) on this page -
> http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/disk_and_quick_release/index.html
>
> It's mainly a concern in disk brake equipped mountain bike or tandems
> (both of which can exert a large braking force via the front wheel).
>
> Graeme
>

As an aside, I was under the impression that these lugs
were compulsory for new bikes sold in Aus. My daughter's
bike has special washers with little hooks instead.

However, my wife's new Avanti Blade does not have these
lawyer lugs on the forks. Wondered if that made it illegal
to sell. Not worried about the safety as she doesn't have
disk brakes on her bike.

DeF.

--
e-mail: d.farrow@your finger.murdoch.edu.au
To reply, you'll have to remove your finger.

 

[Tamyka Bell]

Karen Gallagher wrote:
>
> Absent Husband wrote:
> > Hi Karen,
> >
> > Just a question - whilst I think you can remove those lugs, why would
> > you want to??
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Abby
>
> So that when I rotate the quick release lever, the wheel is released. Just
> like they used to when I was younger. To me, it entirely defeats the object
> to rotate the lever, then undo the nut a couple of turns (thereby losing the
> correct tension setting) to remove the wheel.
>
> I'd be just as well off using the old hubs I used to have with giant
> wing-nuts on to hold the wheels tight, otherwise, without the expense of QR
> hubs.

I thought the point was that you didn't have to go and get a tool out to
remove the wheel. It takes me about 2 seconds to turn the nut and the
correct tension setting is a matter of feel, so now that I've done it a
few times, I usually put it to the right tension first go. I guess
that's the benefit of never having had one on which I didn't need to
undo the nut

Tam

 

[adam85]

Karen Gallagher wrote:
>
> Absent Husband wrote:
> > Hi Karen,
> >
> > Just a question - whilst I think you can remove those lugs, why would
> > you want to??
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Abby
>
> So that when I rotate the quick release lever, the wheel is released. Just
> like they used to when I was younger. To me, it entirely defeats the object
> to rotate the lever, then undo the nut a couple of turns (thereby losing the
> correct tension setting) to remove the wheel.
>
> I'd be just as well off using the old hubs I used to have with giant
> wing-nuts on to hold the wheels tight, otherwise, without the expense of QR
> hubs.

I thought the point was that you didn't have to go and get a tool out to
remove the wheel. It takes me about 2 seconds to turn the nut and the
correct tension setting is a matter of feel, so now that I've done it a
few times, I usually put it to the right tension first go. I guess
that's the benefit of never having had one on which I didn't need to
undo the nut

Tam

I've always read you should adjust the QR so that the cam just takes up at 90 degrees to the skewer rather than by feel. That way it has the right tension when it goes over centre, and required more tension to open than to close without putting too much preload on the bearings. Hmmmm not the best explanation, but that's the way I do it anyway.

Adam

 

[Karen Gallagher]

Tamyka Bell wrote:
> Karen Gallagher wrote:
>>
>> Absent Husband wrote:
>>> Hi Karen,
>>>
>>> Just a question - whilst I think you can remove those lugs, why
>>> would you want to??
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Abby
>>
>> So that when I rotate the quick release lever, the wheel is
>> released. Just like they used to when I was younger. To me, it
>> entirely defeats the object to rotate the lever, then undo the nut a
>> couple of turns (thereby losing the correct tension setting) to
>> remove the wheel.
>>
>> I'd be just as well off using the old hubs I used to have with giant
>> wing-nuts on to hold the wheels tight, otherwise, without the
>> expense of QR hubs.
>
> I thought the point was that you didn't have to go and get a tool out
> to remove the wheel. It takes me about 2 seconds to turn the nut and
> the correct tension setting is a matter of feel, so now that I've
> done it a few times, I usually put it to the right tension first go.
> I guess that's the benefit of never having had one on which I didn't
> need to undo the nut
>
> Tam

Maybe it's my engineering background forcing me to make it more efficient

Karen

--
"I'd far rather be happy than right any day."
- Slartibartfast

 

[TimC]

On 2006-05-31, Karen Gallagher (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> Absent Husband wrote:
>> Hi Karen,
>>
>> Just a question - whilst I think you can remove those lugs, why would
>> you want to??
>
> So that when I rotate the quick release lever, the wheel is released. Just
> like they used to when I was younger. To me, it entirely defeats the object
> to rotate the lever, then undo the nut a couple of turns (thereby losing the
> correct tension setting) to remove the wheel.

But it's trivial to wind the knob a few times, and keep adjusting
until the quick release just grabs when at the perpendicular.

> I'd be just as well off using the old hubs I used to have with giant
> wing-nuts on to hold the wheels tight, otherwise, without the expense of QR
> hubs.

Except that you can't get nearly the same tension with wingnuts, and
quick releases are much easier to handle.

--
TimC
Ride by the freeway
Bumper to bumper traffic
A Schadenfreude -- riding Haiku by Duncan Farrow in aus.bicycle

 

[TimC]

On 2006-05-31, gplama (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> <not very pro>

Did you overhear the comment Robin made lastnight at my standing
start?

"Do you feel pro?" Yep, especially when I made a false start

--
TimC
The gedanken experiment failed. I couldn't reproduce the results -- TimC

 

[Tamyka Bell]

adam85 wrote:
>
> Tamyka Bell Wrote:
> > Karen Gallagher wrote:
> > >
> > > Absent Husband wrote:
> > > > Hi Karen,
> > > >
> > > > Just a question - whilst I think you can remove those lugs, why
> > would
> > > > you want to??
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Abby
> > >
> > > So that when I rotate the quick release lever, the wheel is released.
> > Just
> > > like they used to when I was younger. To me, it entirely defeats the
> > object
> > > to rotate the lever, then undo the nut a couple of turns (thereby
> > losing the
> > > correct tension setting) to remove the wheel.
> > >
> > > I'd be just as well off using the old hubs I used to have with giant
> > > wing-nuts on to hold the wheels tight, otherwise, without the expense
> > of QR
> > > hubs.
> >
> > I thought the point was that you didn't have to go and get a tool out
> > to
> > remove the wheel. It takes me about 2 seconds to turn the nut and the
> > correct tension setting is a matter of feel, so now that I've done it
> > a
> > few times, I usually put it to the right tension first go. I guess
> > that's the benefit of never having had one on which I didn't need to
> > undo the nut
> >
> > Tam
>
> I've always read you should adjust the QR so that the cam just takes up
> at 90 degrees to the skewer rather than by feel. That way it has the
> right tension when it goes over centre, and required more tension to
> open than to close without putting too much preload on the bearings.
> Hmmmm not the best explanation, but that's the way I do it anyway.

Um, yep, and I assess that by feel, rather than by any quantity I have
accurately measured

T

 

[Tamyka Bell]

Karen Gallagher wrote:
>
> Tamyka Bell wrote:
> > Karen Gallagher wrote:
> >>
> >> Absent Husband wrote:
> >>> Hi Karen,
> >>>
> >>> Just a question - whilst I think you can remove those lugs, why
> >>> would you want to??
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>> Abby
> >>
> >> So that when I rotate the quick release lever, the wheel is
> >> released. Just like they used to when I was younger. To me, it
> >> entirely defeats the object to rotate the lever, then undo the nut a
> >> couple of turns (thereby losing the correct tension setting) to
> >> remove the wheel.
> >>
> >> I'd be just as well off using the old hubs I used to have with giant
> >> wing-nuts on to hold the wheels tight, otherwise, without the
> >> expense of QR hubs.
> >
> > I thought the point was that you didn't have to go and get a tool out
> > to remove the wheel. It takes me about 2 seconds to turn the nut and
> > the correct tension setting is a matter of feel, so now that I've
> > done it a few times, I usually put it to the right tension first go.
> > I guess that's the benefit of never having had one on which I didn't
> > need to undo the nut
> >
> > Tam
>
> Maybe it's my engineering background forcing me to make it more efficient
>
> Karen

I'd only believe that if you'd also found some way to incorporate beer.
Engineers always incorporate beer

T

 

[TimC]

On 2006-05-31, Zebee Johnstone (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> I recall a caption comp in a motorcycle mag with a picture of a dirtbike
> rider mid wheelie with the forks and wheel having dropped off his
> bike, the wheel just landing.
>
> The winning one was "Oooh, I wonder if this one will fit!"

"What do I do now? What do I do now?! I know, aim for the grass!"

--
TimC
"This company performed an illegal operation but they will not be shut
down." -- Scott Harshbarger from consumer lobby group on Microsoft

 

[TimC]

On 2006-05-31, Tamyka Bell (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> Karen Gallagher wrote:
>>
>> Tamyka Bell wrote:
<quick releases, lawyers lips (ew, could you imagine kissing a lawyer?)>
>> Maybe it's my engineering background forcing me to make it more efficient
>
> I'd only believe that if you'd also found some way to incorporate beer.
> Engineers always incorporate beer

I've found that a takeaway coffee fits in the bidon cage. I wonder if
a stubby would too?

--
TimC
"32-bit patch for a 16-bit GUI shell running on top of an
8-bit operating system written for a 4-bit processor by a
2-bit company who cannot stand 1 bit of competition." --unknown on M$

 

[Tamyka Bell]

TimC wrote:
>
> On 2006-05-31, Tamyka Bell (aka Bruce)
> was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> > Karen Gallagher wrote:
> >>
> >> Tamyka Bell wrote:
> <quick releases, lawyers lips (ew, could you imagine kissing a lawyer?)>
> >> Maybe it's my engineering background forcing me to make it more efficient
> >
> > I'd only believe that if you'd also found some way to incorporate beer.
> > Engineers always incorporate beer
>
> I've found that a takeaway coffee fits in the bidon cage. I wonder if
> a stubby would too?

Correction: engineers _and physicists_ always incorporate beer

BTW, fat local ones like VB and XXXX fit, but sleek imports do not.
(They are transferable to bidons with pop-top lids, left open but in
place for some splash protection.)

T

 

[TimC]

On 2006-05-31, adam85 (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> I've always read you should adjust the QR so that the cam just takes up
> at 90 degrees to the skewer rather than by feel. That way it has the
> right tension when it goes over centre, and required more tension to
> open than to close without putting too much preload on the bearings.
> Hmmmm not the best explanation, but that's the way I do it anyway.

2/3 of way down:
http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=105

Incidentally, look at the badass nail in a photo 1/3 way down on
http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=56

--
TimC
I saw a slow moving, sad faced old gentleman as he bounced off the
roof of my car. -- insurance claim

 

[Paulie-AU]

Tamyka Bell wrote:
Maybe it's my engineering background forcing me to make it more efficient
Karen
--
"I'd far rather be happy than right any day."
- Slartibartfast

At the cost of a factor of safety?

Tam mabye beer could be used whilst riding to dull the sensation of face on bitumen.

Actually alot of the modern forks I have seen incorporate the "lawyer lugs" by recessing the dropouts. Removing all that material would be a pain, would possibly weaken the dropout and would probably take 20mins to do a nice job and get a parallel surface. A non parallel surface will result in bending the QR skewer and possibly encouraging the wheel to fall out.

5 seconds goes into 20minutes alot of times.

Assuming you take the wheel off and put it back on once per day then it would take 120 cycling days to see a benefit.

 

[geoffs]

At the cost of a factor of safety?

Tam mabye beer could be used whilst riding to dull the sensation of face on bitumen.

Actually alot of the modern forks I have seen incorporate the "lawyer lugs" by recessing the dropouts. Removing all that material would be a pain, would possibly weaken the dropout and would probably take 20mins to do a nice job and get a parallel surface. A non parallel surface will result in bending the QR skewer and possibly encouraging the wheel to fall out.

5 seconds goes into 20minutes alot of times.

Assuming you take the wheel off and put it back on once per day then it would take 120 cycling days to see a benefit.

I took more than a few beers to dull the pain for me.

I hate lawyer tabs also, but I just put up with the extra few seconds it takes.
After nearly 20 years I still have faint scars on my face and a larger one on my left ear where my glasses went through. Looking down and seeing that you are overtaking your front wheel is not a good thing. I've only had it happen the once but avoiding the situation in the first place is better.
All it needs is to be distracted when you are putting the wheel on and .....
Yep I'll just put up with the tabs.

Cheers

Geoff

 

[Bikesoiler]

<snipage>
It's mainly a concern in disk brake equipped mountain bike or tandems
(both of which can exert a large braking force via the front wheel).

Graeme

I've had a front wheel loosen on two different MTB's with disk brakes.
Two different brands of fork, two different hubs/wheels.
Saved by the Lawyer Lips both times.

Most recently was returning from spectating at the Comm Games MTB race. Anyone who's ridde through Birds Land Reserve will know the long decent with a few water bars. Great fun to catch some air off. Five minutes later in the car park I find a loose front wheel.

 

[Michael Warner]

On Wed, 31 May 2006 09:23:40 +1000, Karen Gallagher wrote:

> Any reason why I should not file them off? One's a carbon fork, by the way.
> Seems such a shame to not have working QR hubs.

I've seen them referred to as "lawyer lips", and I've file them off without
problems so far. It shouldn't matter what the fork's made of, since (I
presume) the dropout is alloy.

--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw

 

[Resound]

<not very pro>

But oh so retro. Might be the go for the nice fixie

 

[Vincent Patrick]

adam85 wrote:

>
> Karen Gallagher Wrote:
>> darryl wrote:
>> > In article
>> > <[email protected]>,
>> > "Karen Gallagher" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Both my bikes have little protrusions on the fork drop outs that
>> >> prevent the hub quick release from ... quick releasing. Known, I
>> >> believe, as 'lawyer lugs' as it may prevent legal action if you're
>> >> stupid enough to not have the QR set right.
>> >>
>> >> Any reason why I should not file them off? One's a carbon fork, by
>> >> the way. Seems such a shame to not have working QR hubs.
>> >>
>> >> I can't see any reason myself, but before I do I thought I'd throw
>> >> it open for comment.
>> >>
>> >> Karen
>> >
>> > Carbon fibre dust is regarded by some as dangerous to inhale/ingest
>> > when cutting. I can remember the extreme precautions taken when the
>> > Blackhawk helicopters crashed in High Range Training Area.
>> >
>> > Read the following Material Safety Data Sheet:
>> > <http://www.robotmarketplace.com/images/CF_material_safety.pdf>
>> >
>> > Read the FAQ about CF:
>> > <http://www.robotmarketplace.com/store_carbon_fiber_faq.html>
>> >
>> > Incidentally, this is a supplier who thinks the dangers are
>> > over-rated. I think it is too early in its existence to make that
>> > claim. I can also remember back when asbestos was safe to cut (and
>> > jump on and play with).
>> >
>> > regards,
>> > Darryl
>>
>> Makes sense. So, if I use coarse wet & dry sandpaper wet, and gloves,
>> I
>> should be OK. I had planned to use my jeweller's hand tool with a
>> diamond
>> bit at 10k RPM, this is clearly out.
>>
>> The carbon forks, BTW, are on my road bike, which has no such lugs on
>> the
>> rear. I'll leave the lugs on the hybrid, they don't bother me as much.
>>
>> Thanks for all the input, folks.
>>
>> Karen
>>
>> --
>> "I'd far rather be happy than right any day."
>> - Slartibartfast
>
>
> Karen,
> Your forks are carbon but the tips are alloy yeah? Only a few megabuck
> carbon forks have carbon tips. If so it's fine to file/dremel/grind
> them off flush, no danger of wheel coming out if you use the QR
> correctly.
>
> The one annoying thing changing wheels is my rims are very narrow and
> even with the brakes released the pads still rub on the tyre when I
> take the wheels out. This is the same with chorus and ultegra
> calipers.
>
> Adam

Same here. On my bike squeezing the tyres through the brakes is 10 times
more difficult than adjusting the quick release.

If its the back wheel, my bane is refitting the chain on the derailleur
while putting the wheel on, and trying (unsuccessfully) to avoid the
grease.

By the way, thanks for the 90 degree adjustment hint for the quick release
lever.

Cheers,

Vince