Removing Clement Gutta from a tubular

* * Chas said:

I bought some tubular wheel sets with some still good sewups on them. The
tires were glued on with red Clement Gutta rim cement - or "Gutta Rude-A"
as we used to call it.

The problem is this rude red [censored] is rock hard. Paint remover takes it off
of the rims but how do I get it off of the tires without damaging the
tubes or casing.

Chas.

Is it glumpy or fairly smooth? If smoothish, just glue over it. New
glue will make it softer and actually help the tire stick.

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

* * Chas said:

I bought some tubular wheel sets with some still good sewups on them.

The

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

tires were glued on with red Clement Gutta rim cement - or "Gutta

Rude-A"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

as we used to call it.

The problem is this rude red [censored] is rock hard. Paint remover takes it

off

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the rims but how do I get it off of the tires without damaging the
tubes or casing.

Chas.

Is it glumpy or fairly smooth? If smoothish, just glue over it. New
glue will make it softer and actually help the tire stick.

It's chunky in places and partially breaking off in others.

Chas.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

* * Chas said:

I bought some tubular wheel sets with some still good sewups on them.

The

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

tires were glued on with red Clement Gutta rim cement - or "Gutta

Rude-A"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

as we used to call it.
The problem is this rude red [censored] is rock hard. Paint remover takes it

off

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the rims but how do I get it off of the tires without damaging the
tubes or casing.

Quoted message said:

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Is it glumpy or fairly smooth? If smoothish, just glue over it. New
glue will make it softer and actually help the tire stick.

* * Chas said:

It's chunky in places and partially breaking off in others.

We use a butter knife- anything similar and rounded can scrape the dried
cement off the rim. Much quicker and less messy than solvents.

If it's too soft to scrape, just add a layer and ride.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 20:10:26 -0500, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"* * Chas" <[email hidden]> wrote:
> I bought some tubular wheel sets with some still good sewups on them.

The

Quoted message said:

> tires were glued on with red Clement Gutta rim cement - or "Gutta

Rude-A"

Quoted message said:

> as we used to call it.
> The problem is this rude red [censored] is rock hard. Paint remover takes it

off

Quoted message said:

> of the rims but how do I get it off of the tires without damaging the
> tubes or casing.

Quoted message said:

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Is it glumpy or fairly smooth? If smoothish, just glue over it. New
glue will make it softer and actually help the tire stick.

* * Chas said:

It's chunky in places and partially breaking off in others.

We use a butter knife- anything similar and rounded can scrape the dried
cement off the rim. Much quicker and less messy than solvents.

If it's too soft to scrape, just add a layer and ride.

Dear Andrew,

s/eat/glue
s/peas/tubies
s/honey/red Clement Gutta
s/ . . .

I glue my tubies with red Clement Gutta,
I've done it all my life.
It makes my rims roll funny,
But scrapes off with a butter knife.

http://www.kempf.com/~andrew/books/peaboy.html

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> "* * Chas" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> I bought some tubular wheel sets with some still good sewups on them.
The
>> tires were glued on with red Clement Gutta rim cement - or "Gutta
Rude-A"
>> as we used to call it.
>> The problem is this rude red [censored] is rock hard. Paint remover takes it
off
>> of the rims but how do I get it off of the tires without damaging the
>> tubes or casing.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote
> Is it glumpy or fairly smooth? If smoothish, just glue over it. New
> glue will make it softer and actually help the tire stick.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> "* * Chas" <[email hidden]> wrote:
It's chunky in places and partially breaking off in others.

Quoted message said:

A Muzi said:

We use a butter knife- anything similar and rounded can scrape the dried
cement off the rim. Much quicker and less messy than solvents.
If it's too soft to scrape, just add a layer and ride.

Quoted message said:

Dear Andrew,
s/eat/glue
s/peas/tubies
s/honey/red Clement Gutta
s/ . . .
I glue my tubies with red Clement Gutta,
I've done it all my life.
It makes my rims roll funny,
But scrapes off with a butter knife.

http://www.kempf.com/~andrew/books/peaboy.html

Well, the radius matches the rim nicely and all the restaurants in the
block have them. . .
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 20:10:26 -0500, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> "* * Chas" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> I bought some tubular wheel sets with some still good sewups on

them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The
>> tires were glued on with red Clement Gutta rim cement - or "Gutta
Rude-A"
>> as we used to call it.
>> The problem is this rude red [censored] is rock hard. Paint remover takes

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

off
>> of the rims but how do I get it off of the tires without damaging

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> tubes or casing.

Quoted message said:

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote
> Is it glumpy or fairly smooth? If smoothish, just glue over it. New
> glue will make it softer and actually help the tire stick.

* * Chas said:

It's chunky in places and partially breaking off in others.

We use a butter knife- anything similar and rounded can scrape the

dried

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cement off the rim. Much quicker and less messy than solvents.

If it's too soft to scrape, just add a layer and ride.

Dear Andrew,

s/eat/glue
s/peas/tubies
s/honey/red Clement Gutta
s/ . . .

I glue my tubies with red Clement Gutta,
I've done it all my life.
It makes my rims roll funny,
But scrapes off with a butter knife.

http://www.kempf.com/~andrew/books/peaboy.html

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Gutta - Rude-a is the only rim cement that I've seen fail. I watched
several guys have their red glued tires roll off in the summer heat coming
down off of passes in Northern NM and Southern CO.

My favorite was Pastali. Just the right amount of tack and it stayed in
place and didn't soften up when it got hot.

I have a box of 12 new tubes of Pastali that are over 20 years old. I'm
not going to test shelf life on these. I bought a tube of Vittoria Mastic
One. I'm going to give that a try.

BTW- Gutta - Rude-a tastes BAD!

Chas.

Chas Verktygjunk said:

Gutta - Rude-a is the only rim cement that I've seen fail. I
watched several guys have their red glued tires roll off in the
summer heat coming down off of passes in Northern NM and Southern
CO.

These are pressure sensitive glues. That means they are tacky and not
hard so they are also by definition, thermally sensitive and become
liquid at higher temperatures. Because I ride many mountain roads
here and in the Alps, I had problems with tubulars as long as I used
them and was glad when sturdy light weight clinchers became available.

Because Clement Gutta, Tubasti, Pastali and others all melted on steep
descents, I used 5/8" cotton webbing (sewn into a loop) soaked in
epoxy as a heat barrier on my tubular wheels with a layer of well
cured Pastali between rim an epoxy strip without which the strip with
tire separated from the wheel. This arrangement worked well but then
good tubulars (Campionato del Mundo by Clement) were no longer made
just as the Specialized Touring II tire made the scene.

Quoted message said:

My favorite was Pastali. Just the right amount of tack and it
stayed in place and didn't soften up when it got hot.

How hot? All my tubulars rotated and required turning the front wheel
around to make the tire creep back so the valve stem was again radial.
I didn't go to the insulator strips on a whim. It was necessary.

Quoted message said:

I have a box of 12 new tubes of Pastali that are over 20 years old.
I'm not going to test shelf life on these. I bought a tube of
Vittoria Mastic One. I'm going to give that a try.

I tried them all. They don't hold when the rim gets hot. I once
tried riding wood rims in the 1960's. That worked but the brakes
didn't; the pads burned off at a great rate having no heat sink.

Jobst Brandt

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Because Clement Gutta, Tubasti, Pastali and others all melted on steep
descents, I used 5/8" cotton webbing (sewn into a loop) soaked in
epoxy as a heat barrier on my tubular wheels with a layer of well
cured Pastali between rim an epoxy strip without which the strip with
tire separated from the wheel. This arrangement worked well but then
good tubulars (Campionato del Mundo by Clement) were no longer made
just as the Specialized Touring II tire made the scene.
Jobst Brandt

Aren't epoxies brittle? I know they're a great heat insulator, but thought
they may cause cracking, especially when soaked in a cloth webbing?
-tom

Tom Nakashima said:

Quoted message said:

Because Clement Gutta, Tubasti, Pastali and others all melted on
steep descents, I used 5/8" cotton webbing (sewn into a loop)
soaked in epoxy as a heat barrier on my tubular wheels with a layer
of well cured Pastali between rim an epoxy strip without which the
strip with tire separated from the wheel. This arrangement worked
well but then good tubulars (Campionato del Mundo by Clement) were
no longer made just as the Specialized Touring II tire made the
scene.

Quoted message said:

Aren't epoxies brittle? I know they're a great heat insulator, but
thought they may cause cracking, especially when soaked in a cloth
webbing?

I used Hysol 0151 Epoxy Patch, the stuff SLAC had in lab stock at the
time. It hardens to a tough plastic, stiffening the cotton webbing.
While curing, the strip was pressed against the rim by a tubular tire
inflated over a plastic sheet (as a mold release), forming it to the
appropriate shape. Finally a file was used to remove the feather edge
at the interface between epoxy and Vis-queen polyethylene sheet.

Jobst Brandt

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Nakashima said:

Quoted message said:

Because Clement Gutta, Tubasti, Pastali and others all melted on
steep descents, I used 5/8" cotton webbing (sewn into a loop)
soaked in epoxy as a heat barrier on my tubular wheels with a layer
of well cured Pastali between rim an epoxy strip without which the
strip with tire separated from the wheel. This arrangement worked
well but then good tubulars (Campionato del Mundo by Clement) were
no longer made just as the Specialized Touring II tire made the
scene.

Quoted message said:

Aren't epoxies brittle? I know they're a great heat insulator, but
thought they may cause cracking, especially when soaked in a cloth
webbing?

I used Hysol 0151 Epoxy Patch, the stuff SLAC had in lab stock at the
time. It hardens to a tough plastic, stiffening the cotton webbing.
While curing, the strip was pressed against the rim by a tubular tire
inflated over a plastic sheet (as a mold release), forming it to the
appropriate shape. Finally a file was used to remove the feather edge
at the interface between epoxy and Vis-queen polyethylene sheet.

Jobst Brandt

Ah yes, Hysol 0151 Epoxy Patch (the gray stuff). Can still find it
locked away in some of the cabinets here. Actually it does become
pliable when heated. We used it as a voltage insulator on the Vertex
Chamber connectors. Leave it up to Brandt to find some use for it on
a bicycle. ;-)
-tom

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Because Clement Gutta, Tubasti, Pastali and others all melted on
steep descents, I used 5/8" cotton webbing (sewn into a loop)
soaked in epoxy as a heat barrier on my tubular wheels with a layer
of well cured Pastali between rim an epoxy strip without which the
strip with tire separated from the wheel. This arrangement worked
well but then good tubulars (Campionato del Mundo by Clement) were
no longer made just as the Specialized Touring II tire made the
scene.

Quoted message said:

Tom Nakashima said:

Aren't epoxies brittle? I know they're a great heat insulator, but
thought they may cause cracking, especially when soaked in a cloth
webbing?

Quoted message said:

I used Hysol 0151 Epoxy Patch, the stuff SLAC had in lab stock at the
time. It hardens to a tough plastic, stiffening the cotton webbing.
While curing, the strip was pressed against the rim by a tubular tire
inflated over a plastic sheet (as a mold release), forming it to the
appropriate shape. Finally a file was used to remove the feather edge
at the interface between epoxy and Vis-queen polyethylene sheet.

wow.
We came up with a very similar solution to 30mm tubulars on a customer's
small-radius rim. The tire was adhering only at the edges. We built up
the center similarly with a cotton strip.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Tom Nakashima said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Because Clement Gutta, Tubasti, Pastali and others all melted on
> steep descents, I used 5/8" cotton webbing (sewn into a loop)
> soaked in epoxy as a heat barrier on my tubular wheels with a layer
> of well cured Pastali between rim an epoxy strip without which the
> strip with tire separated from the wheel. This arrangement worked
> well but then good tubulars (Campionato del Mundo by Clement) were
> no longer made just as the Specialized Touring II tire made the
> scene.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Aren't epoxies brittle? I know they're a great heat insulator, but
thought they may cause cracking, especially when soaked in a cloth
webbing?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I used Hysol 0151 Epoxy Patch, the stuff SLAC had in lab stock at the
time. It hardens to a tough plastic, stiffening the cotton webbing.
While curing, the strip was pressed against the rim by a tubular tire
inflated over a plastic sheet (as a mold release), forming it to the
appropriate shape. Finally a file was used to remove the feather edge
at the interface between epoxy and Vis-queen polyethylene sheet.

Quoted message said:

Ah yes, Hysol 0151 Epoxy Patch (the gray stuff). Can still find it
locked away in some of the cabinets here. Actually it does become
pliable when heated. We used it as a voltage insulator on the Vertex
Chamber connectors. Leave it up to Brandt to find some use for it on
a bicycle.

Make that "clear stuff" for 0151. In thicker films it has a yellow
tint but for thin films is transparent. I also use 608 Quick Set
which produces much the same result except that it cures in a few
minutes and is 1:1 mix ratio. It is also stiffer and won't flow.

0151 can be filled with cabasil to make it stiff. Got lots of that
stuff left over from my work at SLAC.

Jobst Brandt

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Nakashima said:

Quoted message said:

>> Because Clement Gutta, Tubasti, Pastali and others all melted on
>> steep descents, I used 5/8" cotton webbing (sewn into a loop)
>> soaked in epoxy as a heat barrier on my tubular wheels with a layer
>> of well cured Pastali between rim an epoxy strip without which the
>> strip with tire separated from the wheel. This arrangement worked
>> well but then good tubulars (Campionato del Mundo by Clement) were
>> no longer made just as the Specialized Touring II tire made the
>> scene.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Aren't epoxies brittle? I know they're a great heat insulator, but
> thought they may cause cracking, especially when soaked in a cloth
> webbing?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I used Hysol 0151 Epoxy Patch, the stuff SLAC had in lab stock at the
time. It hardens to a tough plastic, stiffening the cotton webbing.
While curing, the strip was pressed against the rim by a tubular tire
inflated over a plastic sheet (as a mold release), forming it to the
appropriate shape. Finally a file was used to remove the feather edge
at the interface between epoxy and Vis-queen polyethylene sheet.

Quoted message said:

Ah yes, Hysol 0151 Epoxy Patch (the gray stuff). Can still find it
locked away in some of the cabinets here. Actually it does become
pliable when heated. We used it as a voltage insulator on the Vertex
Chamber connectors. Leave it up to Brandt to find some use for it on
a bicycle.

Make that "clear stuff" for 0151. In thicker films it has a yellow
tint but for thin films is transparent. I also use 608 Quick Set
which produces much the same result except that it cures in a few
minutes and is 1:1 mix ratio. It is also stiffer and won't flow.

0151 can be filled with cabasil to make it stiff. Got lots of that
stuff left over from my work at SLAC.

Jobst Brandt

You got my curiosity so I had to research Hysol Epoxy. You're right,
0151 is clear. The Hysol 6c is gray in color.
http://www.gluguru.com/HysolPatchkitTable.htm
I do remember the box and tubes were this color:
http://www.gluguru.com/EPK1.gif
Cabasil is a thickener.
-tom

Wow, on the East Bay we just used Fast Tac for rim cement. Worked great
even on the decents in the summer months. The Clement used to smear all
over the side walls as well as become grease like.

"Tom Nakashima" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Nakashima said:

>>> Because Clement Gutta, Tubasti, Pastali and others all melted on
>>> steep descents, I used 5/8" cotton webbing (sewn into a loop)
>>> soaked in epoxy as a heat barrier on my tubular wheels with a layer
>>> of well cured Pastali between rim an epoxy strip without which the
>>> strip with tire separated from the wheel. This arrangement worked
>>> well but then good tubulars (Campionato del Mundo by Clement) were
>>> no longer made just as the Specialized Touring II tire made the
>>> scene.

Quoted message said:

>> Aren't epoxies brittle? I know they're a great heat insulator, but
>> thought they may cause cracking, especially when soaked in a cloth
>> webbing?

Quoted message said:

> I used Hysol 0151 Epoxy Patch, the stuff SLAC had in lab stock at the
> time. It hardens to a tough plastic, stiffening the cotton webbing.
> While curing, the strip was pressed against the rim by a tubular tire
> inflated over a plastic sheet (as a mold release), forming it to the
> appropriate shape. Finally a file was used to remove the feather edge
> at the interface between epoxy and Vis-queen polyethylene sheet.

Quoted message said:

Ah yes, Hysol 0151 Epoxy Patch (the gray stuff). Can still find it
locked away in some of the cabinets here. Actually it does become
pliable when heated. We used it as a voltage insulator on the Vertex
Chamber connectors. Leave it up to Brandt to find some use for it on
a bicycle.

Make that "clear stuff" for 0151. In thicker films it has a yellow
tint but for thin films is transparent. I also use 608 Quick Set
which produces much the same result except that it cures in a few
minutes and is 1:1 mix ratio. It is also stiffer and won't flow.

0151 can be filled with cabasil to make it stiff. Got lots of that
stuff left over from my work at SLAC.

Jobst Brandt

You got my curiosity so I had to research Hysol Epoxy. You're right,
0151 is clear. The Hysol 6c is gray in color.
http://www.gluguru.com/HysolPatchkitTable.htm
I do remember the box and tubes were this color:
http://www.gluguru.com/EPK1.gif
Cabasil is a thickener.
-tom

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Wow, on the East Bay we just used Fast Tac for rim cement. Worked great
even on the decents in the summer months. The Clement used to smear all
over the side walls as well as become grease like.

.....and get on the rims and it makes a bigger mess. Even worse if you get
it on your hands and clothes it's a real pain to get it off.

Fast Tac was developed for automotive use for attaching rubber insulation
strips and side panel trim. The problem with Fast Tac is that it doesn't
remain sticky and when you have to change a tire on the road you are SOL

Like I mentioned, I have about tires with hardened Gutta [censored] on them
including all over the side walls.

Chas.

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:36:07 -0500, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

small-radius rim. The tire was adhering only at the edges. We built up
the center similarly with a cotton strip.

I'm new to tubulars... just got a set and have been reading as much as
I can to determine the best way to glue the tubulars to carbon rims.

Is it true that .. thick glue=hysterisis and increased rolling
resistance? If so .. what technique should be used to minimize losses
in the glue interface?

thanks

charlieb in ct.

Charles Beristain said:

I'm new to tubulars... just got a set and have been reading as much as
I can to determine the best way to glue the tubulars to carbon rims.

Is it true that .. thick glue=hysterisis and increased rolling
resistance? If so .. what technique should be used to minimize losses
in the glue interface?

thanks

charlieb in ct.

Charlie:

Welcome to tubulars. Be prepared for verbal abuse from the modernists!

Are you racing professionally? If not, I would not worry about the
losses from thick glue. Worry more about security of your tires on the
rim. However, if you are racing:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/rolling-resistance-tubular.html

"Charles Beristain" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:36:07 -0500, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

small-radius rim. The tire was adhering only at the edges. We built up
the center similarly with a cotton strip.

I'm new to tubulars... just got a set and have been reading as much as
I can to determine the best way to glue the tubulars to carbon rims.

Is it true that .. thick glue=hysterisis and increased rolling
resistance? If so .. what technique should be used to minimize losses
in the glue interface?

thanks

charlieb in ct.

The biggest issue that I've read about with tubulars on carbon fiber rims
has been problems with adhesion. Here's some instructions from the Park
Tool website:

http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=101

Chas.

On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 00:32:32 GMT, still me <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Welcome to tubulars. Be prepared for verbal abuse from the modernists!

Are you racing professionally?

no .. a little old for that... but I do race in the 70+ age group and
we are fairly competitive. And every little bit counts.

charlie