REI Safari or Surly Long haul Trucker?

[SMS]

Woland99 wrote:
> On Mar 27, 10:30 am, [email protected] wrote:
>> I want to do some touring this summer.
>>
>> Any help on deciding between the tow bikes above?
>
> I was facing similar choice - wanted a touring bike and
> at the end had to decide betw Surly LHT and Novarra Randonee.
> For me Novarra Safari was out of a question - I wanted something
> that would look like road bike. PLus I had Novarra Viaggio - I guess
> you can call it earlier version of Safari and I was VERY unhappy
> with that B-shaped handlebar.
> I eventually went with Randonee for two reasons - all things being
> about the same on both bikes Randonee had much better wheel and I
> wanted durable bike. Plus I know everybody in the bike shop at local
> REI and those guys are fantastic when it comes to service and repairs.

I'd go with the Randonee. It's 20% off for the next three days, with the
20% REI discount on one item. Another 5% back with an REI Visa card.

OTOH, the frame on the LHT is better, 4130 versus 520. The LHT is hard
to purchase around here, it has to be ordered I believe. Maybe some
store stocks it, but probably not in multiple sizes.

 

[landotter]

On Mar 28, 2:53 pm, Woland99 <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mar 28, 2:35 pm, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Holy ****, just googled--you're right, they're listing at $75!! An
> > Adventurer is the same weight, tough, easy to build and $25. No
> > brainer.
>
> Dunno - maybe that was a mistake - I went with Randonee over LHT
> after guy at REI bike (shop who gave me good advice in the past)
> spoke against Alex rims.

Nothing wrong with those Mavics--I just wouldn't pay retail for them
is all. The big difference between the bikes is the choice of
shifters. If you like the Randonee's more contemporary style--then you
made the right choice.

Just because somebody works in a shop does not make them credible. The
same D--- at my local looked at my newly built set of wheels yesterday
and declared the "spokes to be too tight to be acting properly like
part of the suspension." He's not the wheelbuilder...thank goodness.

 

[datakoll]

Are Alex Rims made with eyelets? no eyelets no touring.

 

[landotter]

On Mar 28, 4:46 pm, datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:
> Are Alex Rims made with eyelets? no eyelets no touring.

If you order the Adventurer or even the cheaper DM18 from QBP in the
US--it will have eyelets. I'd have no reservations doing a heavy tour
on the cheap DM18, only thing it needs to make it a pleasant rim is a
quick emery sanding of the rim joint for smooth braking. Adventurer is
nicer looking, $5 more, and 50g less. It's also black if you're color
coordinating. DM18 is silver in 700c, black in 26".

 

[datakoll]

Alex is kinda odd there: Universal Cycles implies some are eyeletted
some not but then the rim is pinned together not welded. Ideally, the
rim should have multiple chanbers, barrel eyelets and welded with a
rectangular construction allowing rebending.
DT offers a cafe rim at $$ but not with multiple chambers and as cafe,
of narrow width.
The Rhyno is aimed at tandems so on a tourer itsa go for no hassle
riding.
After 10 years of it, I'd say any showroom stock touring bike is a
short haul touring bike.

Before you go-situps/crunchs front and side. turning knee bends.
press down exercise for the vastus medialis. chondromalacia ex for the
tibialis ligament-rope a poly water jug around the big toe, sit on
steps, rasie and lower lower leg 3-4 inches while holding upper leg
steady. do that every morning toget the old bones knee lube going.
find the bicycle strechs and do it before and after on tour.

campmor has varitec cotton/poly tee's in dayglo-in a few weeks-
outstanding touring T

 

[landotter]

On Mar 28, 5:05 pm, datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:
> Alex is kinda odd there: Universal Cycles implies some are eyeletted
> some not but then the rim is pinned together not welded. Ideally, the
> rim should have multiple chanbers, barrel eyelets and welded with a

The Alex Adventurers or DM18s do not have sockets, but they are plenty
strong regardless. I would consider sockets necessary on a rim with
the "Mavic" brand. For a lighter tourer, a CR18 or Salsa Delgado, as
Hank suggested, would be a nice choice.

 

[Tom Sherman]

Woland99 ? wrote:
> [...]
> Main reason I went with Randonee instead of LHT were Mavic rims -
> I have not heard too much much good about Alex stuff.[...]

I generally hear the opposite. No problems with any of the Alex rims on
my bicycles, and they typically cost half of what a Mavic rim does. I am
not paying twice as much just to get European Heritage & Mystique® in a rim.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

 

[datakoll]

On Mar 28, 6:13 pm, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mar 28, 5:05 pm, datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Alex is kinda odd there: Universal Cycles implies some are eyeletted
> > some not but then the rim is pinned together not welded. Ideally, the
> > rim should have multiple chanbers, barrel eyelets and welded with a
>
> The Alex Adventurers or DM18s do not have sockets, but they are plenty
> strong regardless. I would consider sockets necessary on a rim with
> the "Mavic" brand. For a lighter tourer, a CR18 or Salsa Delgado, as
> Hank suggested, would be a nice choice.

seriously, perhaps yawl miss the point. Alex designers did not supply
"sockets" in the adventurer or 18. Not suppling sockets is a cost/
profit design feature not a road use consumer feature. Alex decison to
not "socket" rules out Alex' attempt to sell a cheap rim as a durable
rim.

 

[landotter]

On Mar 29, 1:55 pm, datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mar 28, 6:13 pm, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 28, 5:05 pm, datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > Alex is kinda odd there: Universal Cycles implies some are eyeletted
> > > some not but then the rim is pinned together not welded. Ideally, the
> > > rim should have multiple chanbers, barrel eyelets and welded with a
>
> > The Alex Adventurers or DM18s do not have sockets, but they are plenty
> > strong regardless. I would consider sockets necessary on a rim with
> > the "Mavic" brand. For a lighter tourer, a CR18 or Salsa Delgado, as
> > Hank suggested, would be a nice choice.
>
> seriously, perhaps yawl miss the point. Alex designers did not supply
> "sockets" in the adventurer or 18. Not suppling sockets is a cost/
> profit design feature not a road use consumer feature. Alex decison to
> not "socket" rules out Alex' attempt to sell a cheap rim as a durable
> rim.

Sockets aren't necessary when the rim is made of strong alloy and the
extrusion errs on the side of caution. A DM18 700c tips the scales at
a good 630g, while a skinnier Sun CR-18 is 500g. Who needs sockets
when you got meat? Eyelets are plenty.

Yeah, you can save 100g per wheel with socketed Mavics and pay $50
more per wheel--but what's 100g per end in the grand scheme when you
add tires? Use Paselas instead of Marathons if you want to go light.
You'll save 400g per wheel.

Alex are cheap and durable, but not the lightest, following the
conventional rules of cycling: pick two.

 

[Hank]

On Mar 29, 5:43 am, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Woland99 ? wrote:
> > [...]
> > Main reason I went with Randonee instead of LHT were Mavic rims -
> > I have not heard too much much good about Alex stuff.[...]
>
> I generally hear the opposite. No problems with any of the Alex rims on
> my bicycles, and they typically cost half of what a Mavic rim does. I am
> not paying twice as much just to get European Heritage & Mystique® in a rim.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Alex does make some lousy rims - notably the single-wall "X-Rim"
series. But OEMs are paying $3 a rim for those, and that's not a
market segment in which Mavic takes part. Comparing apples to apples,
Alex makes equal if not better rims at much lower prices

 

[landotter]

On Mar 29, 2:14 pm, Hank <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mar 29, 5:43 am, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > Woland99 ? wrote:
> > > [...]
> > > Main reason I went with Randonee instead of LHT were Mavic rims -
> > > I have not heard too much much good about Alex stuff.[...]
>
> > I generally hear the opposite. No problems with any of the Alex rims on
> > my bicycles, and they typically cost half of what a Mavic rim does. I am
> > not paying twice as much just to get European Heritage & Mystique® in a rim.
>
> > --
> > Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> > The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
>
> Alex does make some lousy rims - notably the single-wall "X-Rim"
> series. But OEMs are paying $3 a rim for those, and that's not a
> market segment in which Mavic takes part. Comparing apples to apples,
> Alex makes equal if not better rims at much lower prices

The X-series are fine for re-rimming old 27" bikes for cheap. I've
done a couple. They're round and build easily. If you're doing a nice
old 27" sporting ride, go for a CR-18, but for a wide rimmed 70s 27"
bike with chrome rims, the X404 with the center ridge is perfect,
especially matched with a 1 1/4" tire. You know--for a bar bike or
neighborhood ride. It's a single wall rim is all, with single wall
weaknesses--don't be curb jumping too hard with them.

It's no single wall Araya at least--that's true fromage--I think I got
a couple of those in the garage, you can twist those into fun animal
shape with your bare hands!

 

[datakoll]

On Mar 29, 3:14 pm, Hank <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mar 29, 5:43 am, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > Woland99 ? wrote:
> > > [...]
> > > Main reason I went with Randonee instead of LHT were Mavic rims -
> > > I have not heard too much much good about Alex stuff.[...]
>
> > I generally hear the opposite. No problems with any of the Alex rims on
> > my bicycles, and they typically cost half of what a Mavic rim does. I am
> > not paying twice as much just to get European Heritage & Mystique® in a rim.
>
> > --
> > Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> > The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
>
> Alex does make some lousy rims - notably the single-wall "X-Rim"
> series. But OEMs are paying $3 a rim for those, and that's not a
> market segment in which Mavic takes part. Comparing apples to apples,
> Alex makes equal if not better rims at much lower prices

OK use washers. Runnin' on about my ERD crusade: the spoke is a
torsion bar twisting at ends. And the ends deserve correct lubrication
avoiding spoke failure (from inop stress reflief). Steel and whatever
concotion thius month bears but Al/whatever does snot.

 

[datakoll]

On Mar 29, 3:27 pm, datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mar 29, 3:14 pm, Hank <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 29, 5:43 am, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
>
> > > Woland99 ? wrote:
> > > > [...]
> > > > Main reason I went with Randonee instead of LHT were Mavic rims -
> > > > I have not heard too much much good about Alex stuff.[...]
>
> > > I generally hear the opposite. No problems with any of the Alex rims on
> > > my bicycles, and they typically cost half of what a Mavic rim does. I am
> > > not paying twice as much just to get European Heritage & Mystique® in a rim.
>
> > > --
> > > Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> > > The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
>
> > Alex does make some lousy rims - notably the single-wall "X-Rim"
> > series. But OEMs are paying $3 a rim for those, and that's not a
> > market segment in which Mavic takes part. Comparing apples to apples,
> > Alex makes equal if not better rims at much lower prices
>
> OK use washers. Runnin' on about my ERD crusade: the spoke is a
> torsion bar twisting at ends. And the ends deserve correct lubrication
> avoiding spoke failure (from inop stress reflief). Steel and whatever
> concotion thius month bears but Al/whatever does snot.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

off course, spending $10-20 more is a likker for yawl eatin' rice 3X
daily from paper cups-and that's what this here eyeletless outfit's
atrying to pull on yawl witless hilbillies: save money and we'll be in
St Tropez before sundown.
then there's the cosmic idea where the wheel builder goes on about
negative picamills out of perfcetion just short of reverse red shift
torque levels then grinds a thread distance or two off the ERD spoke
lengths thru whacko metalurrgy
BIZARRE

 

[Tom Sherman]

Hank Wirtz wrote:
> On Mar 29, 5:43 am, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> Woland99 ? wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> Main reason I went with Randonee instead of LHT were Mavic rims -
>>> I have not heard too much much good about Alex stuff.[...]
>> I generally hear the opposite. No problems with any of the Alex rims on
>> my bicycles, and they typically cost half of what a Mavic rim does. I am
>> not paying twice as much just to get European Heritage & Mystique® in a rim.
>>
>> --
>> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
>> The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
>
> Alex does make some lousy rims - notably the single-wall "X-Rim"
> series. But OEMs are paying $3 a rim for those, and that's not a
> market segment in which Mavic takes part. Comparing apples to apples,
> Alex makes equal if not better rims at much lower prices

I had a bicycle with Alex X-101 rims and they held up fine for the
limited use I put them too. (The wheels were replaced for other reasons
- primarily a larger size on the front and a 3x7 hub in the rear).

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<792eeb27-82cf-4708-8962-e467615cf5fe@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
landotter <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Mar 29, 1:55 pm, datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Mar 28, 6:13 pm, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > On Mar 28, 5:05 pm, datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > > Alex is kinda odd there: Universal Cycles implies some are eyeletted
> > > > some not but then the rim is pinned together not welded. Ideally, the
> > > > rim should have multiple chanbers, barrel eyelets and welded with a
> >
> > > The Alex Adventurers or DM18s do not have sockets, but they are plenty
> > > strong regardless. I would consider sockets necessary on a rim with
> > > the "Mavic" brand. For a lighter tourer, a CR18 or Salsa Delgado, as
> > > Hank suggested, would be a nice choice.
> >
> > seriously, perhaps yawl miss the point. Alex designers did not supply
> > "sockets" in the adventurer or 18. Not suppling sockets is a cost/
> > profit design feature not a road use consumer feature. Alex decison to
> > not "socket" rules out Alex' attempt to sell a cheap rim as a durable
> > rim.
>
> Sockets aren't necessary when the rim is made of strong alloy and the
> extrusion errs on the side of caution. A DM18 700c tips the scales at
> a good 630g, while a skinnier Sun CR-18 is 500g. Who needs sockets
> when you got meat? Eyelets are plenty.
>
> Yeah, you can save 100g per wheel with socketed Mavics and pay $50
> more per wheel--but what's 100g per end in the grand scheme when you
> add tires? Use Paselas instead of Marathons if you want to go light.
> You'll save 400g per wheel.

And Chalo tells us that the Mavic alloy is functionally
inferior to Sun and Alex alloys, thereby eating up some
or all of the advantage of sockets.

> Alex are cheap and durable, but not the lightest, following the
> conventional rules of cycling: pick two.

--
Michael Press

 

[Chalo]

On Mar 29, 6:36 pm, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article
> <792eeb27-82cf-4708-8962-e467615cf...@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
> landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Mar 29, 1:55 pm, datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > On Mar 28, 6:13 pm, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 28, 5:05 pm, datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > Alex is kinda odd there: Universal Cycles implies some are eyeletted
> > > > > some not but then the rim is pinned together not welded. Ideally, the
> > > > > rim should have multiple chanbers, barrel eyelets and welded with a
>
> > > > The Alex Adventurers or DM18s do not have sockets, but they are plenty
> > > > strong regardless. I would consider sockets necessary on a rim with
> > > > the "Mavic" brand. For a lighter tourer, a CR18 or Salsa Delgado, as
> > > > Hank suggested, would be a nice choice.
>
> > > seriously, perhaps yawl miss the point. Alex designers did not supply
> > > "sockets" in the adventurer or 18. Not suppling sockets is a cost/
> > > profit design feature not a road use consumer feature. Alex decison to
> > > not "socket" rules out Alex' attempt to sell a cheap rim as a durable
> > > rim.
>
> > Sockets aren't necessary when the rim is made of strong alloy and the
> > extrusion errs on the side of caution. A DM18 700c tips the scales at
> > a good 630g, while a skinnier Sun CR-18 is 500g. Who needs sockets
> > when you got meat? Eyelets are plenty.
>
> > Yeah, you can save 100g per wheel with socketed Mavics and pay $50
> > more per wheel--but what's 100g per end in the grand scheme when you
> > add tires? Use Paselas instead of Marathons if you want to go light.
> > You'll save 400g per wheel.
>
> And Chalo tells us that the Mavic alloy is functionally
> inferior to Sun and Alex alloys, thereby eating up some
> or all of the advantage of sockets.

I have not been able to determine the alloy composition of Sun rims.
The polished models seem pretty soft, which is to say they are
probably made from a weaker alloy than 6061-T6. On the other hand
they are quite ductile compared to recent Mavics. At the same
absolute strength, a ductile rim beats a brittle one every time.

Most Mavic and Velocity rims use 6106 alloy, the weakest member of the
6000 series of aluminum alloy (but one that makes pretty extrusions).
All Alex rims I know of use 6061-T6 alloy, which is substantially
stronger.

A few Mavic rims, for instance the Open Pro, use some code-named alloy
which Mavic boasts to be "20% stronger!" or something to that effect.
To me, that means it might well be the same 6061-T6 alloy that Alex
sells for 1/4 the price.

Chalo

 

[datakoll]

Mavic does get bashed.
I'm reasonbly pleased with Sun Rims. The Sun's hol dup well until I
run them into the watermeter hole, antique sewer grate, driveway-road
edge pothole. And true back with my modest skills.
But anything would be an improvement.
Take Wheels axles: strong don't bend easy and when the axle is bent,
the metal trues back tap tap tap in a vise perfectly no problem from
square one.
The rim iza lot ore complex than an axle but on a Wheels 100 rating
I'd give the Suns an 80-85.
Big deal is the chain. UNEEDA CHAIN GUARD to go with the Spec
thornproofs and CO2.
the Chain Guard 2$-see archives-does the job but a complete guard is
the ticket.
eyeballing the problem seems like two 5 gallon oil jugs popped togther
could cover it.
consider: howya gonna clean the chain?
Maybe a 70...

 

[Chalo]

landotter wrote:
>
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> > I want to do some touring this summer.
> >
> > Any help on deciding between the tow bikes above?
>
> Both are excellent choices. If you're going to be touring on rougher
> terrain, the Novara would probably be a better choice, but other than
> that, it's apples and oranges. I think the Surly's pertier. FWIW, the
> spec on the Surly is next to perfect, except for the tires--it may
> just have been the set I ran--but WTB "Slickasaurus" tires are the
> most cheesy flat-prone name brand tires I've ever run. Worth a
> consideration before taking off into the sunset for sure, but not a
> deal breaker.

I've had perfectly satisfactory service from a pair of 700x37
Slickasauri on one of my road bikes. They do not seem exceptional in
any regard, but they feel pretty fast for their size. They have
yielded no more than the expected number of flats.

I do wonder sometimes whether a design house like WTB switches
production of the same item between different suppliers. If so, that
might account for large variations in quality from batch to batch.

Chalo

 

[datakoll]

or mold to mold-last years Pasela Messenger is shorter than this years
and possibly more wobbly or insensitive-vague? not vague, broadly
wooden. I gotta grind the sidepull brake mod plate to fit it.
anyone want a messenger?
one's Japanese. ones Tiwanese?

 

[landotter]

On Mar 29, 7:52 pm, Chalo <[email protected]> wrote:
> landotter wrote:
>
> > [email protected] wrote:
>
> > > I want to do some touring this summer.
>
> > > Any help on deciding between the tow bikes above?
>
> > Both are excellent choices. If you're going to be touring on rougher
> > terrain, the Novara would probably be a better choice, but other than
> > that, it's apples and oranges. I think the Surly's pertier. FWIW, the
> > spec on the Surly is next to perfect, except for the tires--it may
> > just have been the set I ran--but WTB "Slickasaurus" tires are the
> > most cheesy flat-prone name brand tires I've ever run. Worth a
> > consideration before taking off into the sunset for sure, but not a
> > deal breaker.
>
> I've had perfectly satisfactory service from a pair of 700x37
> Slickasauri on one of my road bikes. They do not seem exceptional in
> any regard, but they feel pretty fast for their size. They have
> yielded no more than the expected number of flats.

Mine got a good ten basic punctures in a thousand miles on good roads.
The bike with the WTBs then got sold. I haven't had a single puncture
in the 18months since. Terrible set of tires, those WTB, could have
just been a bad run, who knows? I usually go years between flats.