regarding races - a question of ethics

For some races you can only run the course during the race (because of
traffic, etc.) but for others perhaps you can run at a different time.
If you're running bandit and honestly cannot pay then don't take
advantage of any of the amenities provided by the race. Don't drink
the water and gatorade along the course, don't eat the banana and bagel
at the end, etc. Also, don't crud up the results by finishing in the
chute. Find your own finish somewhere at least a quarter to a half
mile before the designated finish.

-Jeff

Some races will post the course route.

How about volunteering for one of these races? working one race then
maybe getting a discounted entry to another put on by the same RD?

Just a thought.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I make it a point to run one race every month. Then locally (here in
Big Sur,
Santa Cruz, Monterey Bay, Bay area etc) some nice races come up in
scenic
locations (beautiful trails) and I would like to do these as training
runs.
And to be honest I can't afford paying up for too many races either. I
know
that "bandits" are not encouraged, but would it be alright for me to
join
these beautiful runs occassionally with something like a mask on my
face?
Appreciate your suggestions.

I agree with Jeffery - banditing is unethical for good reason. It's
also frustrating to the fellow-competitors who may alter their race strategy
to your presence. It definitely is unfair to the race organizers and
support staff because they will still be responsible for you in some way
and/or need to do additional work because of it. I suppose it's fine when
your workout course overlaps a race in progress, provided you stay out of
their way and don't try to influence the crowd.
I would try to run the course beforehand or afterward, or the day before
when markings are set up already. Unless it's a marathon, it's not hard to
run from 7 to 9 when the race starts at 9:30. If none of those is
practical, register and pay.

Dave

Quoted message said:

these beautiful runs occassionally with something like a mask on my face?

If I looked like you, I'd wear a mask too.

Quoted message said:

For some races you can only run the course during the race (because of
traffic, etc.) but for others perhaps you can run at a different time.
If you're running bandit and honestly cannot pay then don't take
advantage of any of the amenities provided by the race. Don't drink
the water and gatorade along the course, don't eat the banana and bagel
at the end, etc. Also, don't crud up the results by finishing in the
chute. Find your own finish somewhere at least a quarter to a half
mile before the designated finish.

-Jeff

In addition to what Jeff and Ed suggested - both of which are excellent
suggestions, you could maybe start an hour or 2 (depending on duration)
after the official race start to be sure you don't add to congestion.
Maybe pick up trash that gets by the sweep.

Or just do it another day when you can enjoy the scenery more without
the clutter of racers 😉. (unless you're depending on quantities of
people to scare bears away, which is one reason I do races rather than
just training runs)

Some races have a run for the volunteers the day before or some may run
after/before the race, depending on duration and start time.

The trails for most trail races are open to general public at the time
of the race, although they post a permit at the start so others in the
area know to expect a bunch of runners coming through - and maybe choose
a less crowded trail for their hike 🙂

Many trail races have to limit the number of runners according to their
permit. If this is a race that typically fills up, I would not go
anywhere near that trail the day of the race unless I was associated
with the race somehow - either running or volunteering. Those limits are
usually there for safety or environmental (trail carrying capacity)
reasons and are usually not arbitrary. Continuation of trail races
depends on good working relationships with the land managers. Respect that.

Regarding the expense - some races are substantially less expensive than
others - and equaly scenic. Some by commercial operations may be making
a substantial profit; others may provide lots of amenities and have 0
profit; permits cost more money in some places. Shop around for the best
deals that fit your goals or desires. Longer races are frequently the
most economical in cost / mile - at least up here.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

Thank you all for your replies. I should have mentioned that
I run atleast one registered race every month. Beyond that
it could get a little too expensive for me. But of course that
still doesn't provide an ethical excuse for banditing.

But then ethics was never one of my strong points. If ever
you fell for one of Ron's proselytizing trolls, and replied to
him seeking salvation, you would have had to go through
a series of tormenting sermons. Thankfully, your replies
were nowhere near as bad.

Twittering, never believed you could write anything that
ordinary mortals could understand. Thanks. If I had to pick
another reply with which I agree most, it would have to be
Jeff's. I was hoping to grab some water (nothing else, I swear)
but I guess I will carry my own water. And I will be sure to
finish atleast a quarter mile prior to the finish.

During my registered races, where I care for the times, I
consume some gel that I carry with me. For instance, during
a Half Marathon, I typically consume 3 "Carb Boom" gels.
You should try them. They taste delicious.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

For some races you can only run the course during the race (because of
traffic, etc.) but for others perhaps you can run at a different time.
If you're running bandit and honestly cannot pay then don't take
advantage of any of the amenities provided by the race. Don't drink
the water and gatorade along the course, don't eat the banana and bagel
at the end, etc. Also, don't crud up the results by finishing in the
chute. Find your own finish somewhere at least a quarter to a half
mile before the designated finish.

-Jeff

Damn, is that Jeff Bigham, from Princeton and from the midwest? Been a long
time. Are you still fast and are you still a know-it-all little boy? Did
you get your CS degree?

Here is to fast CC runners everywhere!!!

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I make it a point to run one race every month. Then locally (here in
Big Sur,
Santa Cruz, Monterey Bay, Bay area etc) some nice races come up in
scenic
locations (beautiful trails) and I would like to do these as training
runs.
And to be honest I can't afford paying up for too many races either. I
know
that "bandits" are not encouraged, but would it be alright for me to
join
these beautiful runs occassionally with something like a mask on my
face?
Appreciate your suggestions.

Why not just run them on your own at other times?

Quoted message said:

Why not just run them on your own at other times?

Since I raised this issue I might as well spend some more time on
it, even though I already have my answer.

First off, I am not questioning the importance of races. That is
one of the most important things that keeps up my motivation
to run. All I said was that I can register for say 15 races in a
year and not 30 - so I might bandit say 5 or fewer. I am not
justifying that.

Another person said she (or he) runs races to scare off bears.
Bears could be dangerous if challenged, but in California they
are found only in a few pockets, not all over the place. Several
plants and animals are in danger of extinction in California and
some such as the California Grizzly are already extinct.

Actually I do run a few select trails on my own, but not all of
them. I like to run as part of a wider movement (not a crowded
one) when possible. I am trying to join an ultrarunner on atleast
one park trail run every month - which isn't bad considering I do
only one long trail every week - rest of my training is either at
gym or on a paved trail.

Also I am not good at running on trails that are not well marked.
I actually got lost a couple of times and wandered around for a
while until I met someone to guide me back on right track. So in
essence I enjoy the feel of running with a few motivated runners
on trails while maintaining a detached presence.

Having said that I request to be excused on this thread.

Sir, you'll find the jogger ethics are stored over there with the
unicorns, the compassionate conservatives, and several other interesting
items in our "Imaginary Things Department".

Regarding races ~ A question
Of ethics ..

"Sir, you'll find the ethics
Are stored over there with the Unicorns,
The compassionate conservatives, and several other interesting
Items in our 'Imaginary Things Department.'"
~ Miss High Con

"Crossing the line in the U.S., for sure ~
Maybe not in France."
~ Miss De Mean

"Romance, or a Multi ~ Question
Answered essence far more, for ever,
A storied elevation

To climb,
To rhyme,

A sea ~ drift answer returned home,
A circumnavigation follows natural tide."
~ Twittering

"No longer
Fighting, but alighting. Flashing Beacon,
A street, if body, O, yes, weakened

By toil, bloody hands

Quoted message said:

From farther, inhospitable lands."

~ Folly

~ * ~
_________________________________________
Just One of
The Morning Wood Sails Blown Blew ~
_________________________________________
~ * Trade Winds,
A Florentine Shoppe * ~

The Greatest Treasury & Trivia Trove
Ever ...

Good
Stuff ...

And O
So much more ~ *
_________________________________________
Yes ~
A Morning Wood Mercurial Circumnavigation
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~ * ~

"From CPR ~
Interesting, thank you.
Since that incident, I began having repeated ..."
~ REP

"O, stop ~ !
Interesting, is that all ~ ?

O, such a conceit, but far more Twittering
Offers you. Love, not only knotted
Thread, an endless thrill, but an object floating,

Anxious waiting. Self ~ loathing,
For fear, for loss of what's found, too long
Lost, wishing again after empty

Years. An eternity."
~ Folly

"Fool, use you Ears ~ !
Hear me

Cry for you ...

It seems to me I heard somewhere that [email hidden] wrote in
article <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why not just run them on your own at other times?

Since I raised this issue I might as well spend some more time on
it, even though I already have my answer.

Quoted message said:

First off, I am not questioning the importance of races. That is
one of the most important things that keeps up my motivation
to run. All I said was that I can register for say 15 races in a
year and not 30 - so I might bandit say 5 or fewer. I am not
justifying that.

Quoted message said:

Another person said she (or he) runs races to scare off bears.
Bears could be dangerous if challenged, but in California they
are found only in a few pockets, not all over the place. Several
plants and animals are in danger of extinction in California and
some such as the California Grizzly are already extinct.

Those few pockets include suburban patios and back yards in the San
Fernando Valley, as displayed on TV this week; several bears a year are
reported in suburban areas of Southern California. And bears are
resident throughout the hilly and mountainous parts of California. The
grizzly, however irrelevant it may be to this thread, went extinct when
the last known specimen was shot in 1922.

Quoted message said:

Actually I do run a few select trails on my own, but not all of
them. I like to run as part of a wider movement (not a crowded
one) when possible. I am trying to join an ultrarunner on atleast
one park trail run every month - which isn't bad considering I do
only one long trail every week - rest of my training is either at
gym or on a paved trail.

Quoted message said:

Also I am not good at running on trails that are not well marked.
I actually got lost a couple of times and wandered around for a
while until I met someone to guide me back on right track. So in
essence I enjoy the feel of running with a few motivated runners
on trails while maintaining a detached presence.

--
Don Kirkman

Quoted message said:

Another person said she (or he) runs races to scare off bears.
Bears could be dangerous if challenged,

Just to clarify for safety reasons - bears may feel challenged if a
runner or other person or pet passes anywhere near (50 m, maybe farther)
a bear feeding on a carcass. It does not require aggressive behavior on
part of person.

Also to clarify my original statement, that came out differently than
intended. Multiple runners tend to make more noise than single runners.
The noise and multiplicity of targets reduce the chance of a bear
encounter compared with a quiet, solo runner, although I do make some
extra noise in bear areas. The intent of the race isn't to scare off
bears 😉

Quoted message said:

but in California they
are found only in a few pockets, not all over the place.

All that really matters is if they are where you are and you look like
danger or food.

Don't forget about mountain lions in California (just had to remind Dan
about that 😉. They've been known to attack and kill runners also,
although, like bears, it's unusual.

Quoted message said:

Several
plants and animals are in danger of extinction in California and
some such as the California Grizzly are already extinct.

This is probably true in most states.

Quoted message said:

Also I am not good at running on trails that are not well marked.
I actually got lost a couple of times and wandered around for a
while until I met someone to guide me back on right track.

Sounds like our trails, which are notorious for people getting lost in
the maze 😉 I finally GPS'd them until I had the main layout. It was
shortly after that they started putting up maps at each intersection.
After taking a trail maintenance course last summer where they explained
trail design in these park-like settings, they made a lot more sense.

Quoted message said:

So in
essence I enjoy the feel of running with a few motivated runners
on trails while maintaining a detached presence.

Another thought for people to run with - a running or trail club. Some
runners belong to trail clubs supporting multi-use trails. I was
introduced to a couple new trails this winter with our snowshoe running
club (about 6-7 people on an outing). And I'll learn more with some of
these other groups.

Enjoy!

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog