Reflections on Recovery

"Dan Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I ran a 50k a few weeks ago (Calico 50k), and as usual, I took it easy for
a couple of weeks. (Despite a blistering trail run the day after with our
own Mr. Pendejo)

I didn't run much the first week, and tried to do my usual 1 hour in the
weekday mornings the second week.

By that Friday, I was still struggling. It was a chore to run, and I
usually look forward to it. And I was going real slow for me, probably
between 9 and 10 min/mile. I was beginning to wonder if I was too old for
this stuff (I'm 54 and have been running consistently since I was 28).

Then on Saturday, I did an easy 14 miler in the hills. It felt much
better than the day before. So, what the heck, I did an easy 2 1/2 hours
in the mountains on Sunday. That felt better still. Then on Monday, I
had a great 1 hour run before work.

I'm not so much crowing, as surprised. It doesn't make any kind of sense
to me to feel better on Monday after running two long hilly runs than I
felt the week before running much less.

Maybe I just needed to get the cobwebs out of my legs, grow some more red
blood cells, or whatever.

Anyway, it's nice to feel good again. The third week rebound effect has
happened to me before, but it's always a surprise.

Have any of you had similar experiences.?

I don't do your kind of mileage but I will say that running lightly gets the
ache out of my legs much faster than sitting on the couch. i assume it has
something to do with flushing lactic acid.

Quoted message said:

Dan Stumpus said:

I didn't run much the first week, and tried to do my usual 1 hour in the
weekday mornings the second week.

By that Friday, I was still struggling.

Translation: I felt blue after Pendejo went home.

Sorry to hear it, Dan, but it's the same story every time I more from
point A to point B. Trail of misery in my wake and all. Just think of
how difficult it was for the NY contingent the two weeks I was away -
and how devastated they'll be when I move west! I mean, anyone who
thinks lance is already a tad unstable...

Anyhow, I'm delighted to hear you're now feeling recovered.

Can't weigh in with any data points on two or three week recoveries
from this kind of effort. I've intended to run three fall marathons,
started two, finished one. Haven't really bounced back in Novemeber or
December but that's in large part due to not having another goal on the
horizon afterward, standard winter blahs, and probably to some extent
to disappointment with my (non-)performance in these events.

Pendejo, finally feeling recovered from years of Steelers playoff
disappointments

P.S. Next time this happens, I recommend breakfast at Saladang Song,
lunch at Water Grill, and dinner at (don't laugh) Inn of the Seventh
Ray in Topanga - sit outside in the glow of the propane heaters no
matter how cold it is. In fact I heartily recommend this nutritional
cure for pretty much any ill which hasn't rendered one's digestive
tract dysfunctional.

Quoted message said:

Have any of you had similar experiences.?

__

you should seek advice from TrailRunner. He's raced 50Ks Ultra's on
consecutive weekends and set a course PR on the second one!
TrailRunner only needs as few days to recover from a 50K Ultra
race...and days later he's ready for the next 50K Ultra.

He should be able to shed light, insight, and wisdom on how to
recover.....

Dan, have you ever been able to do what TrailRunner's done? Race 50K
Ultras on consecutive weekends? (and PR the second one?)

Quoted message said:

how devastated they'll be when I move west!

___

as a native Californian, born and bred....i predict a guy like you
pendy?....will not like the lack of culture & seasons. fond of strip
malls? well then you'll love it! You pendy?....San Francisco...yes.
Anywhere else in Cali?....no.

[email hidden] a écrit :

Quoted message said:

as a native Californian, born and bred....i predict a guy like you
pendy?....will not like the lack of culture & seasons. fond of strip

what do you mean by "lack of culture & seasons"?
That's the kind of gross prejudice I had when I first moved to LA, but
that I gave up after getting to know the people and the nature over there.
It's strange that you, a native californian, say this.

m

Quoted message said:

what do you mean by "lack of culture & seasons"?

It's strange that you, a native californian, say this.
___

when i left calfornia at 18, i went to a college founded in the 18th
century. in california...there's next to _nothing_ of the 18th
century (and yes i studied all the missions as do all californian
kids). when i lived in europe, i learned of and saw culture dating to
the 14th, and 15th, and 16th centuries. when i lived in china....i saw
culture dating back to hundreds & hundreds of years before that.
(along with this were all the peripheral aspects of this culture in
food, entertianment, etc.).

california is not rich in culture, it's that simple, that's what i
mean, and that's the answer to your question. even native american
culture is far richer on the east coast & south than in
california...and yes, i've studied native american culture in
california. for example...i can drive up to vermont here on the east
coast and visit and old timer's restaurant and eat pancakes wherein
made with homemade maple syrup the owners family's been bottling for
100 years and more.

it's not difficult for me to go to a place here in new york where 3 and
4 generations have been making a certain bread, pizza, beer, pasta,
noodle, whatever....at the same place. that's culture that's adds to
the vibrancy of living life that's pretty much absent in califonia.
california's gone strip mall (in a nut shell).

california culture = automobiles for example. you spend a hell of a
lot of time in a car....when you live in california. take a look at
the great cities of europe and asia....people accept and embrace mass
transportation....however not in california. sue, some take BART in
the Bay Area...but most....love their cars. This is illustrative of
California Culture. Aspects of the culture are not condusive to
foster meaningul cummunity culture. Huge wide open spaces.

you have to have lived elsewhere and seen a lot of things to fully
appreciate how void of culture california is. however i will admit the
best burritos are in california for sure!

lance said:

Quoted message said:

how devastated they'll be when I move west!

as a native Californian, born and bred....i predict a guy like you
pendy?....will not like the lack of culture & seasons.

See - already desparate! I rest my case. :-)

Actually, not only do I think you have a point, it's one I've spent
some time with in recent years when considering whether I might some
day head west, and it's one I had firmly in mind visiting LA.

And in point of fact, I found LA to be a lot culturally richer than my
caricatured preconceptions. It's *different* culture, and *newer*
culture... but I felt the city to have a real depth of culture, and it
feels to me to be a genuine world city (with a very different flavor
from other, older world cities), in contrast to say Chicago which is
quite large and has a lot going for it but is no world city.

Coming from NYC, a Denver or a Seattle seem culturally impoverished
(nobody expected me to get through this post without slagging on
millions, did you?); but not LA.

Car culture, yes - and certainly a demerit; but I grew up with it, and
it's only the last 8 I've lived without daily driving. Lack of
seasons? Precisely, I'm ready to be done with winter, even if it means
giving up lovely 95F, 95% humidity summers.

Charlie Pendejo said:

lance said:

Quoted message said:

how devastated they'll be when I move west!

as a native Californian, born and bred....i predict a guy like you
pendy?....will not like the lack of culture & seasons.

See - already desparate! I rest my case. :-)

Actually, not only do I think you have a point, it's one I've spent
some time with in recent years when considering whether I might some
day head west, and it's one I had firmly in mind visiting LA.

And in point of fact, I found LA to be a lot culturally richer than my
caricatured preconceptions. It's *different* culture, and *newer*
culture... but I felt the city to have a real depth of culture, and it
feels to me to be a genuine world city (with a very different flavor
from other, older world cities), in contrast to say Chicago which is
quite large and has a lot going for it but is no world city.

Coming from NYC, a Denver or a Seattle seem culturally impoverished
(nobody expected me to get through this post without slagging on
millions, did you?); but not LA.

Car culture, yes - and certainly a demerit; but I grew up with it, and
it's only the last 8 I've lived without daily driving. Lack of
seasons? Precisely, I'm ready to be done with winter, even if it means
giving up lovely 95F, 95% humidity summers.

As a native San Franciscan, I was raised to have a deep hatred for
So-Cal, and especially the LA Dodgers. My father won't even say their
name, he calls them "The Bums". I actually like visiting So-Cal,
(there's plenty to do there) with the wonderful comfort is knowing I
will leave after my trip. It's not a place I would want to live.

Martha

Black Metal Martha said:

As a native San Franciscan, I was raised to have a deep hatred
for So-Cal, and especially the LA Dodgers.

You mean the _Brooklyn_ Dodgers, right? Yeah, I bet you pull for the
NY Giants instead.

Pendejo, who sometimes runs past the ruins of Ebbets Field

[email hidden] a écrit :

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

what do you mean by "lack of culture & seasons"?

It's strange that you, a native californian, say this.
___

when i left calfornia at 18, i went to a college founded in the 18th
century. in california...there's next to _nothing_ of the 18th
century (and yes i studied all the missions as do all californian
kids). when i lived in europe, i learned of and saw culture dating to
the 14th, and 15th, and 16th centuries. when i lived in china....i saw
culture dating back to hundreds & hundreds of years before that.
(along with this were all the peripheral aspects of this culture in
food, entertianment, etc.).

I now see why you spoke of "no culture", you think of culture in terms
of old and past's things, so it might be difficult to engage in a
conversation if we do not have the same definition of the same word...

<snip>

Quoted message said:

you have to have lived elsewhere and seen a lot of things to fully
appreciate how void of culture california is. however i will admit the
best burritos are in california for sure!

As a matter of fact, I happened to have lived, and I do live now, in one
of those cities that you will probably call rich in culture (paris france).
It might have _been_ rich in culture in centuries pasts, and there are
surely a lot of beautiful and not so beautiful remnants, but now and
since at least 50 years, it's quite dead in terms of *living* culture.

When I lived in LA, past the first impression of superficiality, I was
struck by, most notably, the richness of invention in art, music and
architecture. For example, most of the great american artists that make
international careers come from the really emulating LA art scene (even
if they have to pass thru NY first).
And when one speaks of something that's shaping the world as it is now
and as it will be tomorrow, all the digital stuff, I do think that
california has its rôle in it.

But yes you're right there is not so much old stuff in LA and SoCal but,
and that is what makes its richess, there are plenty *new* and
*inventive* things.

In terms of seasons, it's just a matter of sensitivity, they do change
less notably than in Europe, but the changes are wonderful, weather,
light, plants, birds, not to mention the blooming spring desert!

m

"Black Metal Martha" wrote in message

Quoted message said:

As a native San Franciscan, I was raised to have a deep hatred for
So-Cal, and especially the LA Dodgers. My father won't even say their
name, he calls them "The Bums".

Quoted message said:

Martha

"It doesn't matter what you do in life.... as long as you hate the Dodgers"

-- E. C. Leslie (my grandfather)

Les <SlowFoot> Stewart
Beaumont, TX

Charlie Pendejo said:

Black Metal Martha said:

As a native San Franciscan, I was raised to have a deep hatred
for So-Cal, and especially the LA Dodgers.

You mean the _Brooklyn_ Dodgers, right? Yeah, I bet you pull for the
NY Giants instead.

Pendejo, who sometimes runs past the ruins of Ebbets Field

Actually, the rivalry between Northern and Southern California (which,
should be divided into two states) is bigger than the old New York one.

Martha

Charlie Pendejo said:

Black Metal Martha said:

As a native San Franciscan, I was raised to have a deep hatred
for So-Cal, and especially the LA Dodgers.

You mean the _Brooklyn_ Dodgers, right? Yeah, I bet you pull for the
NY Giants instead.

Pendejo, who sometimes runs past the ruins of Ebbets Field

Actually, the rivalry between Northern and Southern California (which,
should be divided into two states) is bigger than the old New York one.

Martha

Les Stewart said:

"Black Metal Martha" wrote in message

Quoted message said:

As a native San Franciscan, I was raised to have a deep hatred for
So-Cal, and especially the LA Dodgers. My father won't even say their
name, he calls them "The Bums".

Quoted message said:

Martha

"It doesn't matter what you do in life.... as long as you hate the Dodgers"

-- E. C. Leslie (my grandfather)

Les you rock. In my father's immortal words...."Anyone who roots for
The Bums is disowned." : )

Martha

Dan Stumpus said:

Anyway, it's nice to feel good again. The third week rebound effect has
happened to me before, but it's always a surprise.

Have any of you had similar experiences?

I'm still hoping to hear others' actual experiences here - it's an
interesting topic. Certainly didn't intend to stomp on your thread.

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan Stumpus said:

Anyway, it's nice to feel good again. The third week rebound effect
has
happened to me before, but it's always a surprise.

Have any of you had similar experiences?

I'm still hoping to hear others' actual experiences here - it's an
interesting topic. Certainly didn't intend to stomp on your thread.

FWIW each spring I run the HAT 50k and Bull run 50 miles. Some years
they are two weeks apart and others three. When two weeks apart I run
the HAT easily, use it as a long run, and do BR hard. When three weels
apart I run both hard. In 2002 I PR'd both courses. Anecdotal but what
you can get when you can run a 3-5 hour hilly runs each weekend for
about 4-5 weeks, take a week break, and repeat.

Recovery is specific to length and depth of base.

-DougF

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Black Metal Martha said:

As a native San Franciscan, I was raised to have a deep hatred
for So-Cal, and especially the LA Dodgers.

You mean the _Brooklyn_ Dodgers, right? Yeah, I bet you pull for the
NY Giants instead.

Pendejo, who sometimes runs past the ruins of Ebbets Field

ruins? i thought it was an apartment building now?

Quoted message said:

Doug Freese said:

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan Stumpus said:

Anyway, it's nice to feel good again. The third week rebound effect
has
happened to me before, but it's always a surprise.

Have any of you had similar experiences?

I'm still hoping to hear others' actual experiences here - it's an
interesting topic. Certainly didn't intend to stomp on your thread.

FWIW each spring I run the HAT 50k and Bull run 50 miles. Some years
they are two weeks apart and others three. When two weeks apart I run
the HAT easily, use it as a long run, and do BR hard. When three weels
apart I run both hard. In 2002 I PR'd both courses. Anecdotal but what
you can get when you can run a 3-5 hour hilly runs each weekend for
about 4-5 weeks, take a week break, and repeat.

Recovery is specific to length and depth of base.

-DougF

I think recovery is also an individual thing, some recover quicker than
others, I fall in to the others category.
By the way I was thinking aboth the HAT run but thought better of it
after reading the personal accounts on their site "I am not a Mountain
Goat", etc.
This is the feedback I got from the Escarpment Trail Run director via my
our Coach:

Jim,
Hinte Anderson is a real race. If it is not soaked from rain, the trail
is good (as trails go), and you can run right along. There are plenty of
hills, but nothing sustained. I would say the longest hill is 7 - 10
minutes of up. Don't get me wrong, it is not an "easy" course, but it is
more like running Olana than Escarpment. Harder than Olana mile for
mile, and mostly single track.

Dan Stumpus said:

I ran a 50k a few weeks ago (Calico 50k), and as usual, I took it easy for a
couple of weeks. (Despite a blistering trail run the day after with our own
Mr. Pendejo)

I didn't run much the first week, and tried to do my usual 1 hour in the
weekday mornings the second week.

By that Friday, I was still struggling. It was a chore to run, and I
usually look forward to it. And I was going real slow for me, probably
between 9 and 10 min/mile. I was beginning to wonder if I was too old for
this stuff (I'm 54 and have been running consistently since I was 28).

Then on Saturday, I did an easy 14 miler in the hills. It felt much better
than the day before. So, what the heck, I did an easy 2 1/2 hours in the
mountains on Sunday. That felt better still. Then on Monday, I had a great
1 hour run before work.

I'm not so much crowing, as surprised. It doesn't make any kind of sense to
me to feel better on Monday after running two long hilly runs than I felt
the week before running much less.

Maybe I just needed to get the cobwebs out of my legs, grow some more red
blood cells, or whatever.

Anyway, it's nice to feel good again. The third week rebound effect has
happened to me before, but it's always a surprise.

Have any of you had similar experiences.?

I'm not sure of your question. General rules of thumb suggest it should
take 1 day/mile raced for recovery. That suggests something like 30 days
for recovery. (Yes, I'm chuckling as I write those 2 sentences, since
I'm very aware of experienced ultra runners' recovery time. I'm
deliberately avoiding an obvious comment, but the rest of post is serious.)

Are you surprised
(1) you recovered in less than 30 days
(2) recovery took 2 wks vs 1 wk or whatever? (i.e. not sure what it
usually takes you)

My runs are not as long or as fast as yours and time frame is different,
but yea, the concept of having some recovery (read: cruddy) runs, then
all is well isn't unusual. What I've also found is that some runs may
feel fine but they didn't stress certain aspects - like flat run feels
fine, but hill legs are still tired which I discover 2 days later. And
there's a difference between pain and tired. Since I'm still at beginner
level, it's fairly unpredictable, but have noticed a substantial drop in
recovery time this year as I've been able to run more regularly and with
more sleep. Switching types of runs with respect to weather (snow depth,
ice, etc) keeps cycling the training effects around.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog