Red Lights & Emergency Vehicles

Nuxx Bar said:

"Letting an emergency vehicle through" is not a valid defence to a
charge of jumping a red light when driving.

Is this fair?

It depends.

Quoted message said:

What should a motorist do if he has to choose between jumping a red
light and not getting out of the way of an emergency vehicle?

If you're ever in that situation don't think about the fine and do
whatever seems like the right thing to do.

If there's nowhere else to go, you're really in the way, and going
through the red light isn't dangerous (no point causing another
accident) then do it.

If you get a ticket take it to court. If you get fined anyway console
yourself with the thought that you paid a fine you didn't deserve but
might have saved someone's life by letting the ambulance through.

Nuxx Bar said:

"Letting an emergency vehicle through" is not a valid defence to a
charge of jumping a red light when driving.

Is this fair? What should a motorist do if he has to choose between
jumping a red light and not getting out of the way of an emergency
vehicle? There is not always anything that the motorist can do in the
first place to prevent the situation from arising.

I'm more familiar with N. American jurisdictions than UK. In Canada,
and much of US, if it is safe to do so, it is permissible to run a red
light in order to allow an emergency vehicle to pass. That caveat does
loom large but common sense actually exists (that law is sure to be
changed very soon - cannot have common sense in the legal system).

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:32:55 -0700 (PDT), Nuxx Bar
<[email hidden]> said in
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

"Letting an emergency vehicle through" is not a valid defence to a
charge of jumping a red light when driving.

uk.rec.driving is thataway ---->

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Nuxx Bar said:

"Letting an emergency vehicle through" is not a valid defence to a
charge of jumping a red light when driving.

Easy, get off your bike, push it onto the foot path, then when the
nee-nar has passed, pick up your bike, place it back in the road, and
pedal away once the light is green.

Quoting Ben C <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Nuxx Bar said:

"Letting an emergency vehicle through" is not a valid defence to a
charge of jumping a red light when driving.
Is this fair?

It depends.

Note that in the case widely quoted by the Paul Smith cabal, what actually
happened is that the cager tailed the first set of blues through the red
light, "because he thought there might be another one coming". If only
they made some sort of loud noise and were highly visible...
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Oil is for sissies
Today is Sunday, April - a weekend.

you know? said:

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:32:55 -0700 (PDT), Nuxx Bar
<[email hidden]> said in
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

"Letting an emergency vehicle through" is not a valid defence to a
charge of jumping a red light when driving.

uk.rec.driving is thataway ---->

But there are far more motorist-hating scumbags (like you) in this
group, and I want them to admit that they're perfectly happy with
things like this, despite them being obviously unfair.

You obviously are perfectly happy with it, otherwise you would have
answered the question. You've answered other posts of mine that have
been about driving.

On Apr 16, 5:25 am, David Damerell <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoting  Ben C  <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Nuxx Bar said:

"Letting an emergency vehicle through" is not a valid defence to a
charge of jumping a red light when driving.
Is this fair?

It depends.

Note that in the case widely quoted by the Paul Smith cabal, what actually
happened is that the cager tailed the first set of blues through the red
light, "because he thought there might be another one coming". If only
they made some sort of loud noise and were highly visible...

I have no idea what case you refer to. Are you suggesting that
there's never been an incidence of someone having been convicted just
for going over a red light-related white line far enough to let an
emergency vehicle through? If so, you're wrong. As I said, such
convictions are guaranteed as there is no legal defence to the charge.

(Of course, this has been the case for a long time, but it's only a
widespread problem now that we have red light cameras, since any
police officer would use their discretion (something that the motorist-
haters don't like) and not give a ticket in such a situation.)

Martin Dann said:

Easy, get off your bike, push it onto the foot path, then when the
nee-nar has passed, pick up your bike, place it back in the road, and
pedal away once the light is green.

Tee hee. :-)

--
Dave...

On Apr 16, 9:38 am, Nuxx Bar <[email hidden]> wrote:

"Are you suggesting that there's never been an incidence of someone
having been convicted just
for going over a red light-related white line far enough to let an
emergency vehicle through? If so, you're wrong"

If that's true, the driver has my sympathy.
Could you cite the case? I'd be interested in reading that.

Calum

Nuxx Bar said:

On Apr 16, 5:25 am, David Damerell <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoting  Ben C  <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

On 2008-04-15, Nuxx Bar <[email hidden]> wrote:
>"Letting an emergency vehicle through" is not a valid defence to a
>charge of jumping a red light when driving.
>Is this fair?

[...]

Quoted message said:

(Of course, this has been the case for a long time, but it's only a
widespread problem now that we have red light cameras, since any
police officer would use their discretion (something that the motorist-
haters don't like) and not give a ticket in such a situation.)

If you get a ticket you don't have to pay the fixed penalty, there is
always an option to go to court. There you will get the opportunity to
explain what happened to a magistrate who is one of your peers and
supposed to be a reasonable person.

It isn't really the job of police officers to decide who gets penalized
and who doesn't and nor should it be. A conscientious police officer is
basically a human camera.

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 22:56:44 GMT, Martin Dann
<[email hidden]> said in
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Easy, get off your bike, push it onto the foot path, then when the
nee-nar has passed, pick up your bike, place it back in the road, and
pedal away once the light is green.

Perfect answer, you get the banana :-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Ben C said:

Nuxx Bar said:

On Apr 16, 5:25 am, David Damerell <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoting  Ben C  <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>On 2008-04-15, Nuxx Bar <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>"Letting an emergency vehicle through" is not a valid defence to a
>>charge of jumping a red light when driving.
>>Is this fair?

[...]

Quoted message said:

(Of course, this has been the case for a long time, but it's only a
widespread problem now that we have red light cameras, since any
police officer would use their discretion (something that the motorist-
haters don't like) and not give a ticket in such a situation.)

If you get a ticket you don't have to pay the fixed penalty, there is
always an option to go to court. There you will get the opportunity to
explain what happened to a magistrate who is one of your peers and
supposed to be a reasonable person.

They have no option but to convict. Making way for an emergency
vehicle is not a defence, end of story. They can be as sympathetic as
they like, it makes no difference.

Quoted message said:

It isn't really the job of police officers to decide who gets penalized
and who doesn't and nor should it be. A conscientious police officer is
basically a human camera.

How many police officers have you come across who agree with that?
Because I've come across plenty who don't, and none who do. In
effect, an officer who pulled someone over for jumping a red light to
make way for an emergency vehicle *would* decide if they got
penalised, because if they charged the driver (not that they would),
the driver would definitely get convicted (see above), assuming that
the paperwork etc was in order.

We haven't quite reached the stage where discretion is dead, I'm
pleased to say. Do you really think that cameras would be so hated if
they did the same job as a conscientious police officer? I think
you've been listening to a few too many motorist-hating trolls saying
things like "Anti-camera people just want to be able to do whatever
they like and they don't want any enforcement of any description".
The trolls would love everyone who ever got caught speeding to be
automatically punished, but luckily police officers (conscientious
ones at least) think differently.

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:11:08 -0700 (PDT), Nuxx Bar
<[email hidden]> said in
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

In
effect, an officer who pulled someone over for jumping a red light to
make way for an emergency vehicle *would* decide if they got
penalised, because if they charged the driver (not that they would),
the driver would definitely get convicted (see above), assuming that
the paperwork etc was in order.

So you say. Perhaps you'd support that by posting links to some of
the cases where this has happened, and the courts have then
convicted.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Nuxx Bar said:

you know? said:

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:32:55 -0700 (PDT), Nuxx Bar
<[email hidden]> said in
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Letting an emergency vehicle through" is not a valid defence to a
charge of jumping a red light when driving.

Quoted message said:

uk.rec.driving is thataway ---->

But there are far more motorist-hating scumbags (like you) in this
group, and I want them to admit that they're perfectly happy with
things like this, despite them being obviously unfair.

You obviously are perfectly happy with it, otherwise you would have
answered the question.  You've answered other posts of mine that have
been about driving.

"My name's Guy Chapman. I don't hate motorists at all. I just:

- have all the same opinions as a motorist-hater
- want speed cameras and stupidly low speed limits everywhere
- support every single anti-motorist measure
- am happy to see motorists being automatically fined for letting
emergency vehicles through at red lights
- think cars are mobile death greenhouses."

That's cleared that one up then.

Nuxx Bar said:

Quoted message said:

It isn't really the job of police officers to decide who gets penalized
and who doesn't and nor should it be. A conscientious police officer is
basically a human camera.

How many police officers have you come across who agree with that?

Like the copper last year, who mounted a foot path, broke a pedestrians
leg, then wrote him a ticket for criminal damage to the police car.

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 01:34:21 -0700 (PDT), Nuxx Bar
<[email hidden]> said in
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

But there are far more motorist-hating scumbags (like you) in this
group, and I want them to admit that they're perfectly happy with
things like this, despite them being obviously unfair.

Oh I see, so you were not asking a question, merely broadcasting
bigotry. I hope you have anger management classes before you get
your licence back.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:14:11 -0700 (PDT), Nuxx Bar
<[email hidden]> said in
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

"My name's Guy Chapman. I don't hate motorists at all.

well done, you noticed.

Quoted message said:

- have all the same opinions as a motorist-hater

Using the Nuxx Bar patent definition of motorist hater, being
"person who does not uncritically believe that one third of all road
deaths are caused by speed cameras".

Quoted message said:

- want speed cameras and stupidly low speed limits everywhere

Really? Cameras everywhere, yes, no problem, but "stupidly low
speed limits?" Cite the source for that statement.

Quoted message said:

- support every single anti-motorist measure

I wouldn't know, since you've never posted the list of anti-motorist
measures. Mind, knowing you, you probably think that the entire
Highway Code is one long list of anti-motorist measures.

Quoted message said:

- am happy to see motorists being automatically fined for letting
emergency vehicles through at red lights

Really? Where did that happen? Case numbers, press reports, fine
and other penalty details as actually imposed please.

Quoted message said:

- think cars are mobile death greenhouses."

Yup. And I'm about to buy a Land Rover!

Quoted message said:

That's cleared that one up then.

Certainly has. And it's cleared up the vexed question: "Is Nuxxy a
lying [censored]" - answer: yes, because "ignore" and "reply" are two
different words whose different meanings even Nuxxy must know.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Nuxx Bar said:

you know? said:

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:32:55 -0700 (PDT), Nuxx Bar
<[email hidden]> said in
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

"Letting an emergency vehicle through" is not a valid defence to a
charge of jumping a red light when driving.

uk.rec.driving is thataway ---->

But there are far more motorist-hating scumbags (like you) in this group,
and I want them to admit that they're perfectly happy with things like
this, despite them being obviously unfair.

You obviously are perfectly happy with it, otherwise you would have
answered the question. You've answered other posts of mine that have been
about driving.

Going from your attitude I don't think you should be allowed to drive a
vehicle on the road.

--
___ _______ ___ ___ ___ __ ____
/ _ \/ __/ _ | / _ \ / _ \/ _ |/ / / / /
/ // / _// __ |/ // / / ___/ __ / /_/ / /__
/____/___/_/ |_/____/ /_/ /_/ |_\____/____/

Nuxx Bar said:

"Letting an emergency vehicle through" is not a valid defence to a
charge of jumping a red light when driving.

Is this fair? What should a motorist do if he has to choose between
jumping a red light and not getting out of the way of an emergency
vehicle? There is not always anything that the motorist can do in the
first place to prevent the situation from arising.

I am a motorist, I own a car, and drive it on an occasional basis.

If an emergency vehicle comes up behind me while I'm waiting at a red
light on my bike (this is a cycling group after all), I will dismount
and pull my bike onto the pavement, therefore avoiding breaking any
applicable laws.