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Recumbents & Speed?

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16 June 2004
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  1. Hi,

    I read that recumbents are the fastest bikes, and that the speed
    record on flats was set by a recumbent at 81 mph. This raises several
    questions:

    1) If recumbents are so fast, why don't we see more races with them?
    The Tour De France still uses road bikes...

    2) If recumbents are so fast, why don't people ride them more often?
    Certainly a bicycle that's fast enough to keep up with traffic would
    eliminate the need for a biking lane or worries about riding on the
    left, etc... they could even be used on the freeway. People could
    cover more distances faster -- they would become an even better form
    of transport.

    3) How are these time trials conducted? For example, was the 81mph
    record achieved by somebody pedalling from a dead standstill, or were
    "interesting" tactics allowed that make the achievement less than it
    seems?

    Thanks in advance.

  2. Quoted message said:

    I read that recumbents are the fastest bikes, and that the speed
    record on flats was set by a recumbent at 81 mph.

    The fastest?! Uprights are over twice as fast:
    http://www.fredrompelberg.com/en/html/algemeen/Worldrecord/worldrecord.asp

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Hi,

    I read that recumbents are the fastest bikes, and that the speed
    record on flats was set by a recumbent at 81 mph. This raises


    several

    Quoted message said:

    questions:

    1) If recumbents are so fast, why don't we see more races with them?
    The Tour De France still uses road bikes...

    2) If recumbents are so fast, why don't people ride them more often?
    Certainly a bicycle that's fast enough to keep up with traffic would
    eliminate the need for a biking lane or worries about riding on the
    left, etc... they could even be used on the freeway. People could
    cover more distances faster -- they would become an even better form
    of transport.

    3) How are these time trials conducted? For example, was the 81mph
    record achieved by somebody pedalling from a dead standstill, or


    were

    Quoted message said:

    "interesting" tactics allowed that make the achievement less than it
    seems?

    Thanks in advance.

  3. "Ronald" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I read that recumbents are the fastest bikes, and that the speed
    record on flats was set by a recumbent at 81 mph.

    The fastest?! Uprights are over twice as fast:
    http://www.fredrompelberg.com/en/html/algemeen/Worldrecord/worldrecord.asp

    They are awfully dorky looking.

    M.

  4. Quoted message said:

    Hi,

    I read that recumbents are the fastest bikes, and that the speed
    record on flats was set by a recumbent at 81 mph. This raises several
    questions:

    1) If recumbents are so fast, why don't we see more races with them?
    The Tour De France still uses road bikes...

    I like my recumbent, but I wouldn't race anything but a flat time
    trial on it. And unless you are going to ride the bike a significant
    amount of time competitively, I would think most people would lose
    training benefits going from diamond frame bikes to a recumbent of any
    kind.

    Quoted message said:


    2) If recumbents are so fast, why don't people ride them more often?
    Certainly a bicycle that's fast enough to keep up with traffic would
    eliminate the need for a biking lane or worries about riding on the
    left, etc... they could even be used on the freeway. People could
    cover more distances faster -- they would become an even better form
    of transport.

    That bike was faired, timed on a flying start, and a lot of those in
    competition don't travel a fine line required in traffic. My SWB is as
    fast in traffic as my diamond frame, but if I didn't have reasons for
    switching, I wouldn't have. If my diamond frame was as comfortable at
    100 miles as the recumbent (or as the DF once was to me), I wouldn't
    have paid double the price for the recumbent. FWIW, I commute on a
    Bike Friday Metro.

    That said, there are more than a few cyclists riding faired recumbents
    at speed in traffic. Give them an open road and they can hold mid-20s
    easily. Side drafts can be a [censored].

    Quoted message said:

    3) How are these time trials conducted? For example, was the 81mph
    record achieved by somebody pedalling from a dead standstill, or were
    "interesting" tactics allowed that make the achievement less than it
    seems?

    Short course flying start, usually on a track. A faired recumbent at
    81 mph doesn't take unbanked corners well.

    Quoted message said:


    Thanks in advance.

    Curtis L. Russell
    Odenton, MD (USA)
    Just someone on two wheels...

  5. Anonymous [email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    I read that recumbents are the fastest bikes, and that the speed
    record on flats was set by a recumbent at 81 mph. This raises several
    questions:

    1) If recumbents are so fast, why don't we see more races with them?
    The Tour De France still uses road bikes...

    They suck at climbing. They are illegal in mass start races.
    They are extremely dorky and are uncontrollable in a tight pack.
    Also it's required you have a beard, mustache, and white knee socks
    in order to ride one (and an engineering degree).

    Quoted message said:

    2) If recumbents are so fast, why don't people ride them more often?
    Certainly a bicycle that's fast enough to keep up with traffic would
    eliminate the need for a biking lane or worries about riding on the
    left, etc... they could even be used on the freeway. People could
    cover more distances faster -- they would become an even better form
    of transport.

    Sure... whatever.

  6. [email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    I read that recumbents are the fastest bikes, and that the speed
    record on flats was set by a recumbent at 81 mph. This raises several
    questions:

    1) If recumbents are so fast, why don't we see more races with them?
    The Tour De France still uses road bikes...

    1) They are extremely specialized tandem streamliners with two people
    on board to hit these speeds.
    2) They are extremely un-manuverable.
    3) You can't get in or out of them without a pit crew.
    4) You could never race them on the sort of terrain on which bicycle
    races are held.

    Quoted message said:

    2) If recumbents are so fast, why don't people ride them more often?

    Because the speed is irrelevant. A "normal" recumbent will go somewhat
    faster than a diamond frame on the flats and quite a bit faster down
    hills if the road is reasonably straight. They are much slower up
    hills and especially so if they are very steep hills.

    Quoted message said:

    Certainly a bicycle that's fast enough to keep up with traffic would
    eliminate the need for a biking lane or worries about riding on the
    left, etc...

    If you can ride an upright at 20 mph you would use about the same
    power to ride 22 on a recumbent. Not much difference since drag is a
    non-linear but large growth factor.

    Quoted message said:

    3) How are these time trials conducted? For example, was the 81mph
    record achieved by somebody pedalling from a dead standstill, or were
    "interesting" tactics allowed that make the achievement less than it
    seems?

    This is achieved by a runup and a timed measurement over only a very
    short distance. There are no recumbent records that I could find that
    would lead one to believe that they could keep pace with a real race.

  7. Quoted message said:

    From: [email hidden] (Tom Kunich)

    <lots snipped>

    Quoted message said:

    This is achieved by a runup and a timed measurement over only a very
    short distance. There are no recumbent records that I could find that
    would lead one to believe that they could keep pace with a real race.


    Why am I dreading a lengthy Jeff Potter instigated and carried thread here.
    Please let me be wrong.
    Bill C

  8. On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 12:31:47 -0400, Curtis L. Russell <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    That said, there are more than a few cyclists riding faired recumbents
    at speed in traffic. Give them an open road and they can hold mid-20s
    easily. Side drafts can be a [censored].

    Yep, that's the reason I gave up commuting on a faired recumbent. Nothing like
    a gust of wind suddenly putting you one foot closer to big steel on wheels!

    Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, Tx

  9. [email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Hi,

    I read that recumbents are the fastest bikes, and that the speed
    record on flats was set by a recumbent at 81 mph. This raises several
    questions:

    1) If recumbents are so fast, why don't we see more races with them?
    The Tour De France still uses road bikes...

    2) If recumbents are so fast, why don't people ride them more often?
    Certainly a bicycle that's fast enough to keep up with traffic would
    eliminate the need for a biking lane or worries about riding on the
    left, etc... they could even be used on the freeway. People could
    cover more distances faster -- they would become an even better form
    of transport.

    3) How are these time trials conducted? For example, was the 81mph
    record achieved by somebody pedalling from a dead standstill, or were
    "interesting" tactics allowed that make the achievement less than it
    seems?

    Thanks in advance.

    The 81 mph was done by a single rider (Sam Whittingham) on a road
    course at Battle Mountain, NV. The bike started under it's own power
    and was unpaced (unlike the record referred to above). The course is
    about 5 miles of flat, straight road, and the speed is timed over the
    last 200m. The bike was fully faired and would be totally unsuitable
    for traffic riding - too hard to see out of, unmanouverable, and
    easily blown around by cross winds. The only "interesting" tactic to
    increase the 81 mph record was doing it at altitude - just like all
    those guys who do their hour record in Mexico City or Colorado.
    Recumbents vary widely, much more so than road bikes, and some are
    fast and some are slow. Faired recumbents are considerably faster on
    flats and downhills, but they weigh more than road bikes and that
    hurts climbing performance. But strong riders can go quite fast on a
    recumbent - strong riders go fast on any bike.

  10. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted message said:

    Hi,

    I read that recumbents are the fastest bikes, and that the speed
    record on flats was set by a recumbent at 81 mph. This raises several
    questions:

    1) If recumbents are so fast, why don't we see more races with them?
    The Tour De France still uses road bikes...

    UCI rules prohibit anything but a conventional road bike, very strictly
    defined by the rules, including such details as the allowable distance
    the seat may be ahead or behind the bottom bracket. The good reason for
    doing this is that they want the spirit of bike racing to be a contest
    of human performance, not bike technology. They even say that in their
    rules, with a clear assertion that this spirit will drive UCI rulings
    and regulations. As it is, 'bents are not faster everywhere, so you
    would likely see the phenomenon of riders changing bikes from stage to
    stage (which they already do) and even in some cases on different parts
    of each stage (which one or two riders has tried). The bad reason for
    doing this is the UCI is quite hidebound in its nature, got badly
    freaked out when Mochet set a putative hour record in 1938 with a
    recumbent bike, and promptly banned recumbents from all bike races. A
    lot of constraining decisions have been made since then, and the result
    is that bikes today look close enough to old racing bikes that a postwar
    rider would recognize them as incremental adjustments to his classic
    bike, and a pre-war rider would only be impressed by the addition of
    derailleur gear-changing.

    Quoted message said:

    2) If recumbents are so fast, why don't people ride them more often?
    Certainly a bicycle that's fast enough to keep up with traffic would
    eliminate the need for a biking lane or worries about riding on the
    left, etc... they could even be used on the freeway. People could
    cover more distances faster -- they would become an even better form
    of transport.

    A recumbent is not quite as at ease in tight circumstances as a road
    bike. It doesn't generally climb hills as well as a road bike. It rarely
    accelerates as well. And the fastest straight-line ones are incredibly
    constrained designs that are barely comfortable enough to use for record
    attempts. Normal recumbent designs cannot even be ridden up a curb
    without considerable skill or daring. For a typical rider who wants to
    climb hills or navigate city streets, a hardcore faired recumbent is not
    an ideal choice. As recumbents get further away from that essential type
    (unfaired recumbents, trikes, semi-upright or non-low designs, etc.)
    they lose recumbent advantages progressively until you get to the
    extremes: there are bent designs on the market that are both heavier and
    less aerodynamic than a conventional bike. What they offer is only the
    distinct seating position of a recumbent, which is what many recumbent
    riders are seeking, for comfort or physiological reasons.

    To get an idea of how important pure straight-line performance is, note
    that it can be improved notably on most road bikes by using a time-trial
    setup, and that adding a relatively simple nose fairing would help even
    more. Yet few riders ride their TT bikes on the road unless it is their
    only bike or they are TT training. Virtually none bother to fair their
    conventional bikes.

    Quoted message said:

    3) How are these time trials conducted? For example, was the 81mph
    record achieved by somebody pedalling from a dead standstill, or were
    "interesting" tactics allowed that make the achievement less than it
    seems?

    This is a "flying 200 m" record. The bike has a considerable (and I
    think unregulated by the record rules) distance to accelerate while
    approaching a 200m timing trap. Time through the trap is converted to a
    speed reading. This is the _de facto_ human-powered land speed record,
    currently held by Sam Whittingham riding the Varna Diablo II, designed
    by George Georgiev, at 81.00 mph.

    The hour record, which gives you a good idea of sustained maximum-effort
    speed in a faired low-racer 'bent by an elite athlete, is 51.33 mph, set
    by a German team with their "White Hawk". Slower riders may experience a
    lower top speed. By a fair bit.

    Recumbents are really cool, but they're also notably compromised
    vehicles. For a long-distance tour over relatively flat ground, a
    recumbent might be the fastest, easiest choice of all. But deviations
    from that formula tend to be at the peril of the recumbent's performance
    advantage.

    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/
    President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

  11. "MortDubois" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    The only "interesting" tactic to
    increase the 81 mph record was doing it at altitude - just like all
    those guys who do their hour record in Mexico City or Colorado.

    Real men do it near sea level.

  12. In article <[email hidden]>,

    (Tom Kunich) said:

    [email hidden] wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    I read that recumbents are the fastest bikes, and that the speed
    record on flats was set by a recumbent at 81 mph. This raises several
    questions:

    1) If recumbents are so fast, why don't we see more races with them?
    The Tour De France still uses road bikes...

    1) They are extremely specialized tandem streamliners with two people
    on board to hit these speeds.

    This is not true: the solo HPVs are notably faster than the tandem
    record of 68.405 mph.

    Which is a bit of a shock, since it should be feasible to make a tandem
    with minimal aerodynamic penalties compared to a solo recumbent. I
    suspect that this is a great area for fruitful advancement, and that a
    dedicated team should be able to push the 2-up HPV record beyond the
    solo record.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    3) How are these time trials conducted? For example, was the 81mph
    record achieved by somebody pedalling from a dead standstill, or were
    "interesting" tactics allowed that make the achievement less than it
    seems?

    This is achieved by a runup and a timed measurement over only a very
    short distance. There are no recumbent records that I could find that
    would lead one to believe that they could keep pace with a real race.

    In many cases this might be true. But a recumbent is much, much faster
    over a typical TT course than a conventional bike. Any elite cyclist
    could get into a good faired recumbent and destroy a TT competition.
    They would probably not even need to train on it except for
    familiarization.

    Similarly, and again assuming equivalent-performance cyclists, a fast
    faired recumbent could probably TT away on a really flat road race
    course. Such a course would be somewhat rare, but I have ridden
    early-season races which were on precisely that kind of course: nearly
    dead-flat, only four uncomplicated corners, and about a 5 km circuit.

    The 'bent would be left for dead on most hillclimbs,
    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/
    President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

  13. Carl Sundquist said:

    "MortDubois" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    The only "interesting" tactic to
    increase the 81 mph record was doing it at altitude - just like all
    those guys who do their hour record in Mexico City or Colorado.

    Real men do it near sea level.

    How high does one have to be to make such a record attempt (and I'm not
    really talking about altitude)?

  14. (K. J. Papai) said:

    Also it's required you have a beard, mustache, and white knee socks
    in order to ride one (and an engineering degree).

    If you carry a pocket slide rule, you can skip all that other stuff.

    Curtis L. Russell
    Odenton, MD (USA)
    Just someone on two wheels...

  15. On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 20:40:23 -0700, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    In many cases this might be true. But a recumbent is much, much faster
    over a typical TT course than a conventional bike. Any elite cyclist
    could get into a good faired recumbent and destroy a TT competition.
    They would probably not even need to train on it except for
    familiarization.

    Uh, huh. I'm a recumbent rider, too, and wish that were so. I think it
    is true when you are talking about a non-USCF rated event or a very
    local USCF club time trial. I've officiated at several USCF time
    trials with unfaired recumbents participating and they weren't the
    fastest of the day on any of the days. Truly elite cyclists on a time
    trial diamond frames easily held the best times. And a true turnaround
    on the course is disastrous for a recumbent, faired or not. One event
    had all three recumbents entered going down trying to make the 180
    turn (none of them faired, all technically USCF legal).

    Mentioning a faired recumbent changes the issue. Obviously is they
    were on a course that favored them, they would win. That is a
    comparison that goes beyond apples and oranges, though, because you
    would be talking about the equivalent of a super-specialized time
    trialing bike that would have major advantages on some time trial
    courses and be non-competitive in almost all other competitions.
    Hardly a replacement for anything.

    BTW, if by 'typical TT course' you mean one that is flat with gentel
    corners and set up for good times, you certainly improve the chances
    of a non-faired recumbent. OTOH, you'll see that a couple of times a
    year. 'Typical' is whatever the sponsor club can put together that is
    close to 40k, or whatever. And the nationals have had their share of
    'racing to the turnarounds'.

    Curtis L. Russell
    Odenton, MD (USA)
    Just someone on two wheels...

  16. On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:16:42 +0200, "Robert Chung" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    How high does one have to be to make such a record attempt (and I'm not
    really talking about altitude)?

    Above ground level. Ground level is a [censored]. So is the shower later.

    Curtis L. Russell
    Odenton, MD (USA)
    Just someone on two wheels...

  17. It's funny seeing all these RBR regulars still being wingnuts about
    the recumbent question.

    The more that strong cyclists use bents the more myths fall away. Now
    that we're seeing more 20-lb models I think we'll see lots of the
    'can't uphill' jive go away. Our local club ride which includes a
    dozen strong riders has a 'benter as the strongest rider: on the ups,
    downs, wherever...acceleration, too. 'Bents handle fine. A properly
    faired bent handles fine also, even in sidewinds (mine does).

    They're race-legal in the USCF if under 2 meters for both TT and mass
    start with official's OK (and the 2m rule is eased sometimes).

    Ya know, a bent is a bike, uses the same parts, etc. The difference is
    that it has a different seat. And this gets people upset? A bent
    rotates the rider out of the wind, removing pressure points and
    bunnyhop ability: that's all. (The look of a bent is often simpler,
    more elegant and curvy than an upright due to lack of triangulation.)
    Enjoy 'em or don't. Or here's something really crazy: enjoy 'em *and*
    enjoy other bikes. Radical, I know.

    Here's some links I've posted before...

    *On the looking dorky question: http://speedbikes.ch/mainframe.html

    *A stylish American builder: http://x-eyed.com/bike1.html

    *On the "can't compete with uprights" question:
    http://www.m5-ligfietsen.com/main.php?sNewDept=GB-Races

    *Exact info on the World's:
    http://wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/whpsc2003/speedchallenge-2003.htm

    *Superbike builder's website about fast bikes:
    http://www.speed101.com/gallery

    *Great site of American HPV info and R&D: http://wisil.recumbents.com

    'Nuff said.

    --JP

  18. Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] wrote:


    (Lots of intelligent commentary snipped)

    Quoted message said:

    Recumbents are really cool, but they're also notably compromised
    vehicles. For a long-distance tour over relatively flat ground, a
    recumbent might be the fastest, easiest choice of all. But deviations
    from that formula tend to be at the peril of the recumbent's performance
    advantage.

    I don't agree that recumbents are compromised. They just aren't
    suitable for racing with regular bikes. I commute on my recumbent
    every day over a 10 mile, very hilly route. I think that my
    particular bike is an excellent commuter, and my times on the
    recumbent consistently beat my times on an upright. In my experience,
    bikes can't climb: riders can. Put a huge guy on an upright and see
    how fast he climbs. It's all about the power to weight ratio.
    The biggest advantages of a recumbent are:

    1. Comfort. There is no comparison. The longer the ride, the
    happier I am to not be riding an upright.

    2. View. I am looking straight ahead at all times. My seating
    position and head height from the rode are about the same as if I was
    driving a Honda Civic.

    3. Ability to carry cargo. I have a large "trunk" on the back of my
    bike which holds lunch, clothes, and emergency gear.

    4. Speed. I happen to be a very good climber, not so fast on the
    flats. I make up for the bike's deficiencies (it weighs about 40 lbs
    loaded) and it makes up for mine.

    5. Treatment by cars. Recumbents attract attention, and drivers
    don't lump me in with all the other [censored] riders who annoy them. I
    am never hassled on the recumbent. I help the interaction by obeying
    traffic laws and signalling where I am going.

    The biggest downsides are the inability to jump curbs (not a problem
    for me) or go offroad and the need for a place to park it. And they
    are more expensive in general than road bikes, but the price range is
    from about $600 on up. Some configurations (lowracers, trikes) seem
    iffy for traffic riding, but others disagree. You can't snake in and
    out of traffic like you can on an upright, but that's not such a good
    idea anyway. If you are interested in really finding out about
    recumbents, go here:

    http://www.bentrideronline.com/

    and you can get a sense of the variety of recumbents available.

    Mort

  19. On 17 Jun 2004 08:01:38 -0700, [email hidden] (Jeff Potter)

    Quoted message said:

    It's funny seeing all these RBR regulars still being wingnuts about
    the recumbent question.

    Actually the replies were probably the most balanced and non-wingnut
    posted, from either side.

    Curtis L. Russell
    Odenton, MD (USA)
    Just someone on two wheels...

  20. Robert Chung said:
    Quoted message said:

    How high does one have to be to make such a record attempt (and I'm not
    really talking about altitude)?

    200 mcg

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