recumbent video



Chalo Colina wrote:
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>> **** Ryan wrote:
>>> Recumbent video
>>> This is a promotional video I made about twenty years ago. Due to the
>>> fact that misinformation about recumbents is as common today as it
>>> ever was,

>> Especially on Usenet where the "experts" with minimal to no experience
>> reign.

>
> You conveniently overlook the fact that some of us, myself included,
> used to think recumbents were a good idea-- until we tried them!
>
> It was only my experience with riding 'bents that demonstrated to me
> how much they don't measure up to regular bikes. And I may have tried
> a lousy couple of 'bents (Infinity LWB and BikeE), but that doesn't
> fully account for my impression.


It is unlikely that either of these fit Chalo properly, and both likely
had way to much weight on the rear wheel for proper handling, when
Chalo's size is taken into account.

> As a member of a chopper and
> tallbike club, I've ridden a whole bunch of completely effed-up bikes
> that were not able to sour me on the categories they belonged to (even
> if some of them happened to be the only examples within their
> categories). My first couple of normal bikes (a too-big drop bar
> Huffy and a 26" AMF 10-speed) were just terrible, but they didn't turn
> me off of riding them the way that my first few rides on a 'bent
> did.


Hey, my first bike was a late 1970's AMF 10-speed. Heavy, but actually
adequate - certainly better than the contemporary full-suspension
bicycle shaped objects sold at Sprawl-Mart.

> I think the bewildering array of 'bents available (in spite of their
> tiny number) illustrates what I'm saying about them-- lots of folks
> keep applying their minds to solving the problem, but nobody has yet
> come up with a design that's good enough to warrant adopting the way
> that safety bikes were so quickly adopted.


Not true. The better designers have learned from the mistakes of the
past (e.g. Hypercycle) that led to much of the negative opinion towards
recumbents. The poor designs are gone, or very marginal in the market.

> At best, that means that
> 'bents are no further along after more than 100 years than upright
> bikes were after 50 years-- even though they have the benefit of a
> huge knowledge base and engineering principles developed for their
> predecessors. But I think it's worse than that. I believe that the
> lack of a compelling solution to the problem of the recumbent bike
> after so many years of attempts strongly suggests that no satisfactory
> solution is forthcoming, and that like the dicycle, the recumbent
> bicycle is fated to remain a curiosity for all time.


The main problem with selling recumbents is aversion to the different
and the great amount of misinformation about.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter
 
In article
<ef736741-f13b-43c9-be43-cf3f9bbc3998@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:

> , the recumbent
> > bicycle is fated to remain a curiosity for all time.
> >
> > Chalo

>
> Wheel and Sprocket in Wisconsin (one of the top 100 shops in the
> country according to Bicycle retailer and industry news) sells
> approximately 800 recumbents a year. Do you think they consider
> recumbents a curiosity?
>
> **** Ryan


No, but I think Chalo might consider Wheel and Sprocket a curiosity shop.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing
 
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Chalo Colina wrote:
>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>> **** Ryan wrote:
>>>> Recumbent video
>>>> This is a promotional video I made about twenty years ago. Due to the
>>>> fact that misinformation about recumbents is as common today as it
>>>> ever was,
>>> Especially on Usenet where the "experts" with minimal to no experience
>>> reign.

>>
>> You conveniently overlook the fact that some of us, myself included,
>> used to think recumbents were a good idea-- until we tried them!
>>
>> It was only my experience with riding 'bents that demonstrated to me
>> how much they don't measure up to regular bikes. And I may have tried
>> a lousy couple of 'bents (Infinity LWB and BikeE), but that doesn't
>> fully account for my impression.

>
> It is unlikely that either of these fit Chalo properly, and both likely
> had way to much weight on the rear wheel for proper handling, when Chalo's
> size is taken into account.
>
>> As a member of a chopper and
>> tallbike club, I've ridden a whole bunch of completely effed-up bikes
>> that were not able to sour me on the categories they belonged to (even
>> if some of them happened to be the only examples within their
>> categories). My first couple of normal bikes (a too-big drop bar
>> Huffy and a 26" AMF 10-speed) were just terrible, but they didn't turn
>> me off of riding them the way that my first few rides on a 'bent
>> did.

>
> Hey, my first bike was a late 1970's AMF 10-speed. Heavy, but actually
> adequate - certainly better than the contemporary full-suspension bicycle
> shaped objects sold at Sprawl-Mart.
>
>> I think the bewildering array of 'bents available (in spite of their
>> tiny number) illustrates what I'm saying about them-- lots of folks
>> keep applying their minds to solving the problem, but nobody has yet
>> come up with a design that's good enough to warrant adopting the way
>> that safety bikes were so quickly adopted.

>
> Not true. The better designers have learned from the mistakes of the past
> (e.g. Hypercycle) that led to much of the negative opinion towards
> recumbents. The poor designs are gone, or very marginal in the market.
>
>> At best, that means that
>> 'bents are no further along after more than 100 years than upright
>> bikes were after 50 years-- even though they have the benefit of a
>> huge knowledge base and engineering principles developed for their
>> predecessors. But I think it's worse than that. I believe that the
>> lack of a compelling solution to the problem of the recumbent bike
>> after so many years of attempts strongly suggests that no satisfactory
>> solution is forthcoming, and that like the dicycle, the recumbent
>> bicycle is fated to remain a curiosity for all time.

>
> The main problem with selling recumbents is aversion to the different and
> the great amount of misinformation about.
>


I really don't get this recumbent vs. DF debate. It makes no sense
whatsoever, if you ask me. Sure, if a person as a favorite bike, then by all
means ride it has much as you like. My personal experience says that all
bikes have their own set of pros/cons and that some bikes are better than
others for particular purposes. I have a drop-bar road bike (not an
aggressive racing geometry), and LWB recumbent, and a trike. Each is very
different to ride, and each shines in ways the others don't. You'd think
that people who claim to really enjoy cycling would enjoy the variety that
different types of bikes offer, but in the end, people are people and
narrowmindedness seems to be wherever you find them.
 
On Dec 5, 10:06 am, "Roger Zoul" <[email protected]> wrote:
....
> I really don't get this recumbent vs. DF debate. It makes no sense
> whatsoever, if you ask me. Sure, if a person as a favorite bike, then by all
> means ride it has much as you like. My personal experience says that all
> bikes have their own set of pros/cons and that some bikes are better than
> others for particular purposes.


Exactly. Unfortunately, some folks in both camps can't seem to accept
that the other camp's bikes have merit and are worthwhile, and that
maybe their negative experiences with one or the other are not
universal either with the bikes and/or the riders themselves.
 
Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
> **** Ryan wrote:
> >
> > Chalo wrote:
> > >
> > > , the recumbent
> > > bicycle is fated to remain a curiosity for all time.

>
> > Wheel and Sprocket in Wisconsin (one of the top 100 shops in the
> > country according to Bicycle retailer and industry news) sells
> > approximately 800 recumbents a year. Do you think they consider
> > recumbents a curiosity?

>
> No, but I think Chalo might consider Wheel and Sprocket a curiosity shop.


Along with Rideable Bicycle Replicas of Alameda, CA:

http://hiwheel.com/

Bad ideas don't usually go away; mostly they just go nowhere.

Chalo
 
On Dec 5, 2:09 pm, "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Olebiker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 5, 4:39 am, "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message

>
> >>news:[email protected]...

>
> >> > Chalo Colina wrote:
> >> [...]
> >> >> I think the bewildering array of 'bents available (in spite of their
> >> >> tiny number) illustrates what I'm saying about them-- lots of folks
> >> >> keep applying their minds to solving the problem, but nobody has yet
> >> >> come up with a design that's good enough to warrant adopting the way
> >> >> that safety bikes were so quickly adopted.

>
> >> > Not true. The better designers have learned from the mistakes of the
> >> > past
> >> > (e.g. Hypercycle) that led to much of the negative opinion towards
> >> > recumbents. The poor designs are gone, or very marginal in the market.

>
> >> Recumbent designers made a wrong turn when they opted for the short
> >> wheelbase configuration. Recumbents need to be long wheelbase for a
> >> variety
> >> of reasons. They also need to have above seat steering. Easy Racers
> >> almost
> >> got it right, but had too low a bottom bracket. **** Ryan got it wrong
> >> with
> >> his under seat steering and his bottom bracket was also too low.

>
> >> I maintain that there is a best single design for a recumbent just as
> >> there
> >> was for the upright and the fact that recumbent design is STILL all over
> >> the
> >> map is an indication of the failure of the recumbent bicycle.

>
> >> >> At best, that means that
> >> >> 'bents are no further along after more than 100 years than upright
> >> >> bikes were after 50 years-- even though they have the benefit of a
> >> >> huge knowledge base and engineering principles developed for their
> >> >> predecessors. But I think it's worse than that. I believe that the
> >> >> lack of a compelling solution to the problem of the recumbent bike
> >> >> after so many years of attempts strongly suggests that no satisfactory
> >> >> solution is forthcoming, and that like the dicycle, the recumbent
> >> >> bicycle is fated to remain a curiosity for all time.

>
> >> > The main problem with selling recumbents is aversion to the different
> >> > and
> >> > the great amount of misinformation about.

>
> >> Recumbents are not so difficult that the average person cannot figure
> >> them
> >> out rather readily. They do not sell because there is not one design that
> >> has yet proven itself to be superior to all the others. Further, very
> >> many
> >> recumbent manufacturers promote things other than comfort which is a huge
> >> mistake. Recumbents are all about comfort and little else. They are ideal
> >> for older folks for whom comfort is the major consideration, not for
> >> youngsters who want speed and tricks. Uprights are or them; recumbents
> >> are
> >> for the rest of us - if only they would get the design right!

>
> >> Now if geniuses like **** Ryan could only have gotten the design better,
> >> most older folks by now who are still riding bicycles would be riding
> >> recumbents instead of those torture machines known as uprights or diamond
> >> frames. I think among the RANS stable of bikes that there is the perfect
> >> recumbent, but they are all over the map with way too many designs. Like
> >> all
> >> the others, RANS got sidetracked on short wheelbase, an absolute
> >> abomination
> >> of a design for a recumbent bicycle.

>
> >> One final consideration. It may be that even if the recumbent
> >> manufacturers
> >> could have gotten it right and settled on one design, that it still would
> >> not have made any difference. Most folks over 40 do not ride bicycles.
> >> Instead, if they do anything at all physical, they walk. This is not a
> >> bad
> >> idea since it is what nature designed us to do, not to pedal bicycles.

>
> >> Thus spake Zarathustra.

>
> > I get so tickled at bent riders trying to convince me that I am
> > miserble in my upright bike. Methinks they doth protest too much.

>
> Are you yet over 40? Do you ride 5 or 6 hours a day for weeks on end? Or
> rather do you just occasionally ride about town for an hour or so. If the
> latter, then you do not need a recumbent. However, if the former, I suspect
> you do need a recumbent, or at least you will once you get old enough
> provided you ride a lot.
>
> The main advantage of a recumbent is that you will continue to ride it into
> your old age, something that is almost impossible to do on an upright
> because of the discomfort factor.
> - Show quoted text -


I am 57 and ride 3 to 4 hours each day on the weekend. I just don't
have a problem.

I expect that one of these days I will try a recumbent, but right now
I love riding a wedgie.
 
Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> In article
> <ef736741-f13b-43c9-be43-cf3f9bbc3998@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> , the recumbent
>>> bicycle is fated to remain a curiosity for all time.
>>>
>>> Chalo

>> Wheel and Sprocket in Wisconsin (one of the top 100 shops in the
>> country according to Bicycle retailer and industry news) sells
>> approximately 800 recumbents a year. Do you think they consider
>> recumbents a curiosity?
>>
>> **** Ryan

>
> No, but I think Chalo might consider Wheel and Sprocket a curiosity shop.
>

Wheel and Sprocket generates enough revenue to advertise on billboards,
radio and newspapers.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter
 
Roger Zoul wrote:
> ...
> I really don't get this recumbent vs. DF debate. It makes no sense
> whatsoever, if you ask me. Sure, if a person as a favorite bike, then by all
> means ride it has much as you like. My personal experience says that all
> bikes have their own set of pros/cons and that some bikes are better than
> others for particular purposes. I have a drop-bar road bike (not an
> aggressive racing geometry), and LWB recumbent, and a trike. Each is very
> different to ride, and each shines in ways the others don't. You'd think
> that people who claim to really enjoy cycling would enjoy the variety that
> different types of bikes offer, but in the end, people are people and
> narrowmindedness seems to be wherever you find them.


Upright bicycles are fine for those who can ride them comfortably, which
may well be a majority of the population. Certainly, the upright design
is better for some uses, such as its obvious superiority on technical
single track.

However, the ridiculous claim is made by some (including several
prominent posters on rec.bicycles.*) that uprights can be made
comfortable for ALL through proper fit, or the the discomfort of upright
bicycles does NOT turn some off of cycling as an activity.

Almost every cyclist would benefit if more people took up the activity.
Why discourage people from riding a crank-forward upright or a recumbent
if that is what it take to have them be an active cyclist? Snobbish elitism?

Then there is the sad case of the real life Fabrizio Mazzoleni's, who
are so insecure that the need to form a clique that degenerates anyone
who do not use the same bicycles, clothing and accessories as the UCI
peloton.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter
 
Tom Sherman wrote:
>
> This would be good advice, except for one small, er large, problem.
> Chalo is 2.05 meters tall and has a mass of about 150 kg (at last
> report), which makes him larger than your average NFL tackle. Chalo will
> NOT fit properly on a RANS Rocket or practically any other production
> recumbent. An XL Lightning P-38 with a longer boom MIGHT be acceptable,
> or if Freddy Markham would build a custom Tour Easy with larger diameter
> tubing and extended wheelbase.
>
> I am not surprised at his size that Chalo finds the handling or
> recumbents that are designed for much smaller people to be poor.
>


He should try sitting on a Cycle Genius Falcon if he gets the chance:
> http://www.cyclegenius.com/ltx.html

I am about 6'2" and 285lbs, 2.05 meters and 150kg works out to about
6'7" and 330 lbs or so. Adjusted for me, there's still about three
inches of room to scoot the seat base back. Someone so heavy might watch
the rear wheel spokes, though I'd bet the front would work as-is-OEM.

The Cycle Genius Raven/Falcon is one of the widest-adjustment recumbent
/frames/ around, the seat adjustment can fit people from about four feet
to about six and a half feet--but the handlebars will need to be changed
over that range. Under about 5' you'll need shorter handlebars and near
6' you'll want longer ones. (Also the stem they use is not good, but
changing that out is a minor issue)
~
 
> This is not due to their recumbent business, but due to their upright
> business. Even Hostel Shoppe of Stevens Point, one of the most recumbent
> intense businesses in the entire country, does not neglect uprights.
> However, it is really quite strange why Wisconsin should have such great
> recumbent bike shops. After all, it does not have the climate of either
> California or Florida.
>
> location has little or nothing to do with bike sales. The attitudes of theowner and the employees has everything to do with it. One would think that shop owners from other parts of the country would notice the success that W&S has selling recumbents. But they don't and probably never will. A friend of mine works at W&S and related this story to me. Every year Trek has a dealer meeting at the factory (which is not far from W&S's shop in Hale's Corner). As W&S is Trek's biggest dealer and well known as perhaps the most successful bike shop in the country they get quite a few bike shop owner visitorsduring the dealer meeting. A common question asked by visiting dealers is "why do you have all these recumbents on the floor?". Basically a lot of bikeshop owners don't have a clue about business. Of course one of the things that they have to deal with even if they are smart is that the average bike shop employee is a testosterone laden jock who hates recumbents. Comments about recumbents that I've heard in bike shops.

You'll never see one on the floor of this shop!
They don't go up hills.
They are too heavy.
They are too low to the ground.
They're slow.
Sorry, can't help you, don't know anything about them.
Real men ride REAL bicycles!
And my favorite general comment about cycling
"to be a real cyclist you have to be willing to endure pain and
suffering"
The few shops that we dealt with always had only one employee who was
the "recumbent guy". If he wasn't there the potential customer was
told he'd have to come back some other time. I was present at a shop
that sold our bikes and witnessed this wonderful demonstration of
salesmanship. The recumbent guy was discussing the sale of one of our
$4500 tandems to a potential customer. Another salesman overhearing
the conversation stopped and interrupted and said to the couple
interested in the bike "you won't find that thing as comfortable as
you might think" and walked off.
It's rather difficult to popularize a product that for all practical
purposes there are no retail outlets for.
Mr. Chalo is way off base on his comments about poor design, there are
plenty of well designed recumbents out there, but he may be right
about them remaining a curiosity forever.

**** Ryan
 
ryancycles wrote:

> They don't go up hills.
> They are too heavy.
> They are too low to the ground.
> They're slow.


What's particularly dopey is the way these get wheeled out even when
there is obvious proof to the contrary:

"that thing's so low, you're invisible!"
"but you saw me, right, you can see me now?"
"yes!"
"errrrrr..."

and so on.

The usual answer to "how do you do x on that?" is "the same way as on an
upright", but people just won't accept it. x is most often steering and
balance and setting off.

> Real men ride REAL bicycles!


A bit like the original attitude of Penny-Farthing/Ordinary riders to
the new-fangled Safety... So I guess REAL Real Men ride Ordinaries! ;-)
Though as an occasional Unicyclist it's clear that anyone using such
gauche contrivances as handlebars and a second wheel is a bit of a
girl's party blouse! ;-)

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
ryancycles aka **** "Godfather of Recumbency" Ryan wrote:
>> ...

> The few shops that we dealt with always had only one employee who was
> the "recumbent guy". If he wasn't there the potential customer was
> told he'd have to come back some other time....


I have experienced exactly that!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter
 
Tom Sherman wrote:
>
> **** Ryan wrote:
> >
> > The few shops that we dealt with always had only one employee who was
> > the "recumbent guy". If he wasn't there the potential customer was
> > told he'd have to come back some other time....

>
> I have experienced exactly that!


If you go into a bike shop with nuanced questions about unicycles, you
might get a similar treatment-- it's hard not to think "umm, who
cares?" when someone asks after a quasi-perverse self-abuse device.
The difference is that a lot more shops actually know where to find a
unicycle to sell to you.

Go into a gun shop asking for a magnetic rail gun, and you'll get some
puzzled looks too. There's no reason _in principle_ that they
shouldn't carry such a thing-- but why would they really?

Chalo
 
Chalo Colina wrote:
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>> **** Ryan wrote:
>>> The few shops that we dealt with always had only one employee who was
>>> the "recumbent guy". If he wasn't there the potential customer was
>>> told he'd have to come back some other time....

>> I have experienced exactly that!

>
> If you go into a bike shop with nuanced questions about unicycles, you
> might get a similar treatment-- it's hard not to think "umm, who
> cares?" when someone asks after a quasi-perverse self-abuse device.
> The difference is that a lot more shops actually know where to find a
> unicycle to sell to you.


butbutbut, this shop had several new recumbents sitting on the sales
floor, fully assembled, with price tags on them, just a few feet from
where the manager and myself were standing, while the manager was
telling me I had to come back when the "recumbent guy" was there. Their
yellow page advertisement even mentioned that they sold recumbents!

Note that **** Ryan wrote "shops that we dealt with", which implies that
the shops Ryan referred to sold his product (Vanguard single and
Fleetwood/Duplex tandem recumbents).

> Go into a gun shop asking for a magnetic rail gun, and you'll get some
> puzzled looks too. There's no reason _in principle_ that they
> shouldn't carry such a thing-- but why would they really?


If you went into a LBS looking for a cargo bicycle and saw several
sitting on the sales floor fully assembled, but the staff would only
talk to you about drop bar road bikes and FS ATBs, what would your
reaction be?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter
 
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Chalo Colina wrote:
>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>> **** Ryan wrote:
>>>> The few shops that we dealt with always had only one employee who was
>>>> the "recumbent guy". If he wasn't there the potential customer was
>>>> told he'd have to come back some other time....
>>> I have experienced exactly that!

>>
>> If you go into a bike shop with nuanced questions about unicycles, you
>> might get a similar treatment-- it's hard not to think "umm, who
>> cares?" when someone asks after a quasi-perverse self-abuse device.
>> The difference is that a lot more shops actually know where to find a
>> unicycle to sell to you.

>
> butbutbut, this shop had several new recumbents sitting on the sales
> floor, fully assembled, with price tags on them, just a few feet from
> where the manager and myself were standing, while the manager was telling
> me I had to come back when the "recumbent guy" was there. Their yellow
> page advertisement even mentioned that they sold recumbents!


That is sad to the point of moronic. Shops like this deserve to go out of
business, if you ask me. They'd rather turn a potential repeat customer away
than learn to ride a recumbent in the parking lot (to show newbies how to
get started).

>
> Note that **** Ryan wrote "shops that we dealt with", which implies that
> the shops Ryan referred to sold his product (Vanguard single and
> Fleetwood/Duplex tandem recumbents).
>
>> Go into a gun shop asking for a magnetic rail gun, and you'll get some
>> puzzled looks too. There's no reason _in principle_ that they
>> shouldn't carry such a thing-- but why would they really?

>
> If you went into a LBS looking for a cargo bicycle and saw several sitting
> on the sales floor fully assembled, but the staff would only talk to you
> about drop bar road bikes and FS ATBs, what would your reaction be?


Morons.
 
Roger Zoul wrote:
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Chalo Colina wrote:
>>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>> **** Ryan wrote:
>>>>> The few shops that we dealt with always had only one employee who was
>>>>> the "recumbent guy". If he wasn't there the potential customer was
>>>>> told he'd have to come back some other time....
>>>> I have experienced exactly that!
>>> If you go into a bike shop with nuanced questions about unicycles, you
>>> might get a similar treatment-- it's hard not to think "umm, who
>>> cares?" when someone asks after a quasi-perverse self-abuse device.
>>> The difference is that a lot more shops actually know where to find a
>>> unicycle to sell to you.

>> butbutbut, this shop had several new recumbents sitting on the sales
>> floor, fully assembled, with price tags on them, just a few feet from
>> where the manager and myself were standing, while the manager was telling
>> me I had to come back when the "recumbent guy" was there. Their yellow
>> page advertisement even mentioned that they sold recumbents!

>
> That is sad to the point of moronic. Shops like this deserve to go out of
> business, if you ask me. They'd rather turn a potential repeat customer away
> than learn to ride a recumbent in the parking lot (to show newbies how to
> get started)....


A lot of shops carried recumbents in the mini-boom of the late 1990's.
Many suffered from the problem of having a staff of young wannabe
racers, who were working there mainly to get bicycles and parts at
wholesale, and had no interest in anything but racing bicycles. Those
shops that went to the trouble to find staff that actually understood
recumbent bicycles and carried a wide enough variety to suit potential
customers are still selling recumbents today, and likely making an
acceptable profit doing so.

The demise of recumbents from Cannondale and Trek is not surprising in
this light (and the fact that both were overpriced), since there would
be one or two lonely recumbents sitting in the shop corner that none of
the staff wanted to deal with. One wonders if this was part of the
demise of ATP Vision, since they managed to sign up a lot of LBSs in the
late 1990s, most of which did not make any real effort after than to
promote or sell the bikes.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter
 
Edward Dolan wrote:
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> [...]
>> Hey Ed, your quoting hierarchy is all messed up!

>
> **** Ryan's message showed up on my OE newsreader without any quotation
> marks at all, so I added some to his and then some more to mine so as to at
> least make it readable. The main thing is to keep clear who is saying what
> and my markings accomplished that.


Sorry, but they did not. Your post made it appear is if you wrote some
of ****'s posting that you were quoting.

I would rather use the Google web interface than OE for Usenet. Why not
try Thunderbird [1] (NOT this Thunderbird [2])? The price is within your
budget - Thunderbird is free!

[1] <http://mozzila.org/>.
[2] <http://www.bumwine.com/tbird.html>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter
 
Edward Dolan wrote:
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> [....]
>> The demise of recumbents from Cannondale and Trek is not surprising in
>> this light (and the fact that both were overpriced), since there would be
>> one or two lonely recumbents sitting in the shop corner that none of the
>> staff wanted to deal with. One wonders if this was part of the demise of
>> ATP Vision, since they managed to sign up a lot of LBSs in the late 1990s,
>> most of which did not make any real effort after than to promote or sell
>> the bikes.

>
> I think Vision simply tried to get too large too quick and that it did not
> have much to do with the bike shops. It came as quite a surprise to me when
> they suddenly went out of business.


Part of ATP Vision trying to get large was signing up a lot of bicycle
shops - if I recall correctly, they had many more official dealers than
RANS, while selling about the same number of bicycles.

At least ATP closed shop in an honorable manner, unlike BikeE which
assured everyone that things were fine, leaving dealers and suppliers
holding the bag. Note that many of the principles at BikeE landed at BigHa.

> I think the lesson for recumbent
> manufacturers is to stay small, even if it means you have to rely on mail
> order catalogs. Unless you actually want to ride a recumbent before you buy,
> a good mail order catalog will tell you everything you will ever want to
> know. The RANS brochure comes immediately to mind and Bacchetta has a very
> good one too. I have purchased all of my many recumbents based on catalogs
> (brochures) and I have never been disappointed.


I think brochures have been replaced for the most part by Internet web
sites - most anyone in the market for a recumbent has an Internet
connection.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter
 
Edward Dolan wrote:
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Edward Dolan wrote:
>>> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>> [...]
>>>> Hey Ed, your quoting hierarchy is all messed up!
>>> **** Ryan's message showed up on my OE newsreader without any quotation
>>> marks at all, so I added some to his and then some more to mine so as to
>>> at least make it readable. The main thing is to keep clear who is saying
>>> what and my markings accomplished that.

>> Sorry, but they did not. Your post made it appear is if you wrote some of
>> ****'s posting that you were quoting.

>
> It did not appear that way from my newsreader. 99% of all messages show up
> properly on my newsreader. Those few that don't are most likely the fault of
> the poster and not my newsreader. I have noted in the past that some of Jim
> McNamara's messages also do not appear with the proper quotation marks. But
> these anomalies are few and far between.


It is well known that OE does some odd things that do not fit Usenet
standards. That you post appears fine on OE does not mean that it is fine.

>> I would rather use the Google web interface than OE for Usenet. Why not
>> try Thunderbird [1] (NOT this Thunderbird [2])? The price is within your
>> budget - Thunderbird is free!

>
> The Google web interface is impossible. I hate it! The fact that my message
> in response to **** Ryan's showed up wrong on your newsreader leads me to
> believe there is something wrong at your end.


Highly unlikely.

> I do not see the sense of going to the web when I have it (a newsreader)
> already on my operating system closely integrated with everything else. What
> am I missing?


Note that I was NOT recommending a web based interface for Usenet,
mainly that it would be preferable to OE. There are many program out
there better than OE for use as newsreaders.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter
 
Edward Dolan wrote:
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Edward Dolan wrote:
>>> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Edward Dolan wrote:
>>>>> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>> Hey Ed, your quoting hierarchy is all messed up!
>>>>> **** Ryan's message showed up on my OE newsreader without any quotation
>>>>> marks at all, so I added some to his and then some more to mine so as
>>>>> to at least make it readable. The main thing is to keep clear who is
>>>>> saying what and my markings accomplished that.
>>>> Sorry, but they did not. Your post made it appear is if you wrote some
>>>> of ****'s posting that you were quoting.
>>> It did not appear that way from my newsreader. 99% of all messages show
>>> up properly on my newsreader. Those few that don't are most likely the
>>> fault of the poster and not my newsreader. I have noted in the past that
>>> some of Jim McNamara's messages also do not appear with the proper
>>> quotation marks. But these anomalies are few and far between.

>> It is well known that OE does some odd things that do not fit Usenet
>> standards. That you post appears fine on OE does not mean that it is fine.

>
> Nope, if it appeared fine on my newsreader, I can only assume that I did it
> correctly. I am now using Vista instead of XP, so I think OE is no more. It
> is now Windows Mail.


"Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0" to be precise.

Since micro$oft is so large, they feel no need to adhere to standards.

>>>> I would rather use the Google web interface than OE for Usenet. Why not
>>>> try Thunderbird [1] (NOT this Thunderbird [2])? The price is within your
>>>> budget - Thunderbird is free!
>>> The Google web interface is impossible. I hate it! The fact that my
>>> message in response to **** Ryan's showed up wrong on your newsreader
>>> leads me to believe there is something wrong at your end.

>> Highly unlikely.

>
> The web is often messed up for one reason or another. I trust my own
> computer operating system more than I do anything on the web.


Usenet is not the World Wide Web.

>>> I do not see the sense of going to the web when I have it (a newsreader)
>>> already on my operating system closely integrated with everything else.
>>> What am I missing?

>> Note that I was NOT recommending a web based interface for Usenet, mainly
>> that it would be preferable to OE. There are many program out there better
>> than OE for use as newsreaders.

>
> What is the advantage of using Yahoo (which is web based) like you are
> compared to my own OS newsreader? My ISP fully supports the newsreader. It
> just doesn't make any sense to go elsewhere.


My ISP is no additional charge - something that should appeal to the
frugal Mr. Dolan.

> Why did you stop using that free newsreader based in Germany?


Since I am still using <news.motzarella.org>[1], which is free and based
in Germany, this question makes no sense. Secondly, it is a "news
server" and not a "newsreader". I am using Thunderbird [2] as a
newsreader, which is also free.

[1] As a look at the headers would reveal, if Windows Mail is capable of
such.
[2] ibid.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter